Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[ZippyDSMlee]

I dunno in my opinion it seems more like people are being nitpicky and try to create the fallacy of there is a huge soul sucking gap in race or gender when what it really is, is some people just being shallow and petty. IMO there is a slight gap but it?s neither very deep nor very wide. Our skewed perspective as individuals that group together to form groups to pick on other groups seems to make a river into an ocean.

 

[carnex]

OT, feminism can be used to help tell a story, but should it be a measure of the medium? Fuck no. The only measure of video games should be, "Is this a good video game?" of course what that means is really up in the air.

Treating women equally (as characters and players) isn't a metric of a good video game?

Skimpy dressed males, skimpy dressed females? Check

But wait, that is sexist!

If they are equal, no it's not.

 

[Hazy992]

No, I don't. Sure it's silly, but as I pointed out, the game is meant to be.

I can buy that. Up to a point. Beyond that I ain't buying the 'it's just for a joke guys, jeez!' When you do it enough there's something more to it than that.

As for sexual fantasies being meant to titillate the player, my response is "And...?" Why is sexualisation bad? Characters serve purposes within stories, and eye candy can b nice.

Because believe it or not women are actually people, not just objects. If you reinforce this idea that that's all women are good for how do you think that's going to make some women feel? Not only that but that's all you get. As I said above if you want games that do nothing but pander then by all means, but if you don't want that then what other choice is there?

It is possible for a character to be attractive without being objectified.

Feminism seems to accept the premise that sex is dirty and evil, and that thinking sexual thoughts about someone takes away their value as a human being. I disagree. Sex is fine, and being shouldn't be viewed as demeaning or dishonorable.

And herein lies the problem. This assumption that feminists are basically like The Borg and all think in a hive mind just isn't true. Feminism is an umbrella term for an array of diverse ideologies that center around rights for women. That's it.

There are plenty of feminists who embrace their sexuality, otherwise you wouldn't get things like The SlutWalk. Do some feminists believe what you said above? Maybe. Do they all believe that? Hardly.

Feminism always seemed a bit odd to me, in that it has both groups complaining about slut shaming, and saying women should be able to wear whatever they want wthout society judging them for it, and groups saying a character from a game wearing a bikini is evil oppression. Then again these may well b seperate groups.

See above.

 

[Dr.Awkward]

Can't feminism become its own genre? Like if you don't like or want obnoxious amounts of feminism in your games, then you can just avoid most of that as a genre, kind of like how some people don't like RPGs or military shooters or simulators don't get the games in those genres.

 

[carnex]

And herein lies the problem. This assumption that feminists are basically like The Borg and all think in a hive mind just isn't true. Feminism is an umbrella term for an array of diverse ideologies that center around rights for women. That's it.

There are plenty of feminists who embrace their sexuality, otherwise you wouldn't get things like The SlutWalk. Do some feminists believe what you said above? Maybe. Do they all believe that? Hardly.

And here lies the BS. You can't really say what feminism is can you? You can repeat the subtitle, but that doesn't define it. Actions define. And when actions do not coincide with proclamations you have a problem. If there are 1000 brands of feminism and one has problem with many of them one is going to fight all of them since they are united front.

Not all German soldiers during WWII signed up to Nazi ideology. Many of them actually were against it. But my grandpa wasn't reluctant to put bullet in one of them because he might be "communist in disguise"

 

[II2]

Putting aside both all the social noise and the limited anecdote of the OP, it strikes me as a strange question to ask, fundamentally:

Should _____ and gaming mix?

If you had said, say, Objectivism, prior to 2007, I would have said no, but Bioshock was undeniably made more interesting for it. Ken Levine is a great writer and even still could have cocked it up if he hadn't put a lot of love and care into crafting its place in the world.

I feel its all about execution and context, really. Feminism exists primarily as criticism in relation to games at this point in time, which doesn't make it a popular subject - there's very little feminism in game design, itself. Like any big idea, it would be hard to handle and express, though. Ideally, you'd want the idea there to ask questions, not give answers - to show both the positive and negative sides of how it might play out in a story.

Just spitballing:

- A contemporary game where you are a book smuggler and underground teacher, ducking the Taliban and bringing education to oppressed women in the middle east. Stealth adventure sorta deal, same modern warfare trappings, but focusing on evading the soldiers and fanatics to bring books and healthcare in and people in peril out. If you screw up, it's all your asses. Great central risk / reward mechanic for accumulating and keeping ahead of the heat.

- A historical strategy game; sorta a 4X political game to get women the vote, rights and other issues addressed in a turn based campaign across the USA. Try and gain ground, organize rallies, distribute literature, manage expenses and manage a roster of agents, whose abilities and opinions bring buffs and debuffs, etc.

You know, that kinda thing. Make a meal of the subject with meaningful mechanics, rather than just spouting off about it an an unrelated action adventure vehicle, or whatever. It would be good to try and avoid Margret Atwood style hyperbole, or - worse - censorship in game design, saying "you can't do that / say that".

 

[carnex]

-snip-

On the same note
There is little anti-slavery in games. Actually games in which you can own slaves or are required to own slaves outnumber those in which you are required to release slaves because slavery is bad thing is on the scale of times infinite since number of later games, to my knowledge, is zero.

 

[Maitresse Zem]

yes. go back to your mancave.


also, I study film and literary sciences and they are all about feminism and psychoanalysis. If I cannot write feminist essays about games I will have to return to reading books, and since I cannot read for as many hours as I can play videogames since I have the attention span of a Muppet, I will end up here, at the forums, to spew my dark, feminist rage.

and it will be all. on. you.

/feminist out

I'm not sure the satire in this will be read by a community who thinks that feminists are out to destroy gaming as we know it.

well, my post is about as much satire as gaming's portrayal of women is satire.

 

[carnex]

yes. go back to your mancave.


also, I study film and literary sciences and they are all about feminism and psychoanalysis. If I cannot write feminist essays about games I will have to return to reading books, and since I cannot read for as many hours as I can play videogames since I have the attention span of a Muppet, I will end up here, at the forums, to spew my dark, feminist rage.

and it will be all. on. you.

/feminist out

I'm not sure the satire in this will be read by a community who thinks that feminists are out to destroy gaming as we know it.

well, my post is about as much satire as gaming's portrayal of women is satire.

Nice name, I'm guessing you like being Domina.

Anyway...
In games geared towards males female characters will be made to suit male tastes, expectations and preferences. I played few casual games geared for female audience, mostly casual stuff. I was curious, what can i say. What I found s that male characters were either throwaway hunks, throwaway fat wasters meant to be disgusting, Mr. Perfect of Mr. Perfectly Disgusting (I actually saw bad representations only in few cases). So, we are equal. I didn't found myself offended, rather amused. Then again, men are portrayed that way in female light literature for ages, nothing new.

 

[Thaluikhain]

No.

I want to play videogames.

I don't want politics, feminism, cis-privilege, gay marriage, immigration reform, gender politics, transsexual acceptance, anti-war, pro-interventionist, abortion, PeTA or Greenpeace in my entertainment.

Take your soapbox, for whatever purpose, however valid or petty your complaints, and take it somewhere where it doesn't impact my unrelated hobby.

Excepting, of course, it's not just your hobby. Why do you assume it should be solely what you like? Don't, for example, gay people play games?

Secondly, there isn't a default, to which people stick ideologies. Get rid of feminism, and you aren't getting rid of gender ideologies, you are enforcing another one. Or to put it another way, nobody says we should make games solely about disabled black lesbians, and that anyone trying to make games about able bodied straight white males is doing so for ideological reasons, but it's just as valid.

Now, sure, you can do away with all of that if you are playing something like Tetris. Or, I guess, you demand every game be solely about disabled black lesbians just to end discussions about it.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

No, I don't. Sure it's silly, but as I pointed out, the game is meant to be.

I can buy that. Up to a point. Beyond that I ain't buying the 'it's just for a joke guys, jeez!' When you do it enough there's something more to it than that.

As for sexual fantasies being meant to titillate the player, my response is "And...?" Why is sexualisation bad? Characters serve purposes within stories, and eye candy can b nice.

Because believe it or not women are actually people, not just objects. If you reinforce this idea that that's all women are good for how do you think that's going to make some women feel? Not only that but that's all you get. As I said above if you want games that do nothing but pander then by all means, but if you don't want that then what other choice is there?

It is possible for a character to be attractive without being objectified.

Feminism seems to accept the premise that sex is dirty and evil, and that thinking sexual thoughts about someone takes away their value as a human being. I disagree. Sex is fine, and being shouldn't be viewed as demeaning or dishonorable.

And herein lies the problem. This assumption that feminists are basically like The Borg and all think in a hive mind just isn't true. Feminism is an umbrella term for an array of diverse ideologies that center around rights for women. That's it.

There are plenty of feminists who embrace their sexuality, otherwise you wouldn't get things like The SlutWalk. Do some feminists believe what you said above? Maybe. Do they all believe that? Hardly.

Feminism always seemed a bit odd to me, in that it has both groups complaining about slut shaming, and saying women should be able to wear whatever they want wthout society judging them for it, and groups saying a character from a game wearing a bikini is evil oppression. Then again these may well b seperate groups.

See above.

"something more to it than that" there really isn't. Why do you think the dwarf looks like he overdosed on steroids? The game uses caricatures of stock types in its design. Mystery solved. Moving on, I am well aware that women are people. My mother is a woman. Believe it or not, my best friend is a woman too. And one of the smartest people I know. But men are human as well. And humans are animals, who happen to reproduce sexualy. Sexy outfits don't invalidate a character. Additionally, the idea that people will see women as nothing more than sex objects because they stared at a fictional woman's boobs is ludicrous. Women make up half the population. Men have met real women. And the fact that we tend to form romantic relationships proves that it is entirely possible to respect, admire, and appreciate someone and also want to see them naked. If someone is determining the worth of half the human species based on random pieces of fiction then they were never mentally stable enough for their opinion to matter in the first place. Besides, most skimpily dressed women in games are also highly competent warriors. Which actually brings to mind a comparison. If putting sexualised women in your games is misogynistic because it implies that women only exist for men's sexual pleasure, isn't the fact that most soldiers in games are male misandristic, because it implies men are only good at killing each other? As for feminism being the Borg, no I don't believe that. I just wish people would stop using the label feminist to describe themselves, when it is so meaningless that you can have feminists both demanding that video game women where more clothes and that real women be allowed to wear less without society judging. Pick more descriptive terms, or every discussion on feminism is doomed to fail.
Edit: I also think there are parallels to be drawn between the "video games teach our children to be mass murderers" idea and the "video games will teach our children that women are sex objects only existing for their pleasure" idea. Both are very very silly.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

I'm all for better written female characters who occupy the entire spectrum of physical proportions real women can actually be.

But feminism? Fuck that noise. The feminist narrative spins everything to look like it's stacked against women, even when it's equally (or more) shitty for men.

For example.
I like how when a women feels unrequited romantic feelings for a guy, she's unappreciated and undervalued and the guy just hasn't recognised it. We're supposed to feel sympathetic. When a man feels unrequited romantic feelings for a woman, he's a selfish asshole who's not content with just being friends because he's so obsessed with sex. He's an unsympathetic whiner.
When you look at the numbers for marital violence, they're actually fairly even going both ways. It's just that when you specifically call it 'abuse' it all skews to look like most of it is violent husbands attacking wives. Why? Because when a women hits you, you're meant to suck it up. You don't report it, and you don't think of yourself as an abused husband.

There are plenty of middle eastern countries that could do with a big ol' dose of feminism. And a big ol' dose of atheism, too. But do I want it in gaming? Nope. There's enough of it in society as it is...

 

[Amaror]

Also, if it really is just a matter of lazy writing, why does lazy writing always seem to take those forms?

I'm not being funny, but I don't quite think you get the obvious flaw with this.

Of course lazy writing winds up taking the same handful of forms, because it's LAZY. If lazy writers endeavoured to present myriad forms or create a breadth of perspectives they would cease to be lazy writers, wouldn't they?

Fair point. I did not express myself clearly.

Perhaps what I should have said is, "Why is it that those are the default forms that lazy writers consistently fall back on?"

Because it's the story we always told. Simple as that. It's been that way for nearly all of human history. Men were the strong ones that protect the women. So the stories people told to each other were of men really spectacular protecting a woman. Besides every one has someone they love, so everyone can relate to the scenario of having to rescue their loved one. It's simply the default story.

 

[Maitresse Zem]

well, my post is about as much satire as gaming's portrayal of women is satire.

Nice name, I'm guessing you like being Domina.

Anyway...
In games geared towards males female characters will be made to suit male tastes, expectations and preferences. I played few casual games geared for female audience, mostly casual stuff. I was curious, what can i say. What I found s that male characters were either throwaway hunks, throwaway fat wasters meant to be disgusting, Mr. Perfect of Mr. Perfectly Disgusting (I actually saw bad representations only in few cases). So, we are equal. I didn't found myself offended, rather amused. Then again, men are portrayed that way in female light literature for ages, nothing new.

actually, it's a H2G2 reference. thanks for the compliment, sweet cheeks.

you should check out some content on this website about this very subject, Jim Sterling comes to mind. there's some pretty interesting things being said, it might enlighten you and/or entertain you.

 

[Nemu]

So when did The Escapist become deathly afraid of women?

Quite some time ago.

Right around the same time that every 3rd thread was about homosexuality, which, coincidentally, was when I stopped even BROWSING the forums with any regularity. The forums have become such vapid wastelands of sexual preferences/identities and men v women that I can't be bothered to browse for more than 5 minutes anymore.


A shame, really.

 

[carnex]

well, my post is about as much satire as gaming's portrayal of women is satire.

Nice name, I'm guessing you like being Domina.

Anyway...
In games geared towards males female characters will be made to suit male tastes, expectations and preferences. I played few casual games geared for female audience, mostly casual stuff. I was curious, what can i say. What I found s that male characters were either throwaway hunks, throwaway fat wasters meant to be disgusting, Mr. Perfect of Mr. Perfectly Disgusting (I actually saw bad representations only in few cases). So, we are equal. I didn't found myself offended, rather amused. Then again, men are portrayed that way in female light literature for ages, nothing new.

actually, it's a H2G2 reference. thanks for the compliment, sweet cheeks.

you should check out some content on this website about this very subject, Jim Sterling comes to mind. there's some pretty interesting things being said, it might enlighten you and/or entertain you.

It's not like I?m talking out of my ass. i do know what I'm talking about. But I do like to take a look around myself and form my own opinion rather than repeating something someone else said and concluded. Now you might feel different about it then I do, but I can't do anything about that. Feelings are deeply personal and often have no connection to reality. My feelings on many things actual go against my opinions. I recognize them as unreasonable and sidestep them.

P.S.
I do belive what I wrote about owning your own sexuality. I'm not pulling that out of my behind either.

Edited:
It really pay's off to read what you have written before posting. What I wrote before edit made no sense what so ever...

 

[Norithics]

So the stories people told to each other were of men really spectacular protecting a woman. Besides every one has someone they love, so everyone can relate to the scenario of having to rescue their loved one. It's simply the default story.

That hurt to read. In addition to being a gross oversimplification, it's only true if you have a very selective view of cultural stories.

Here.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/bulf/
Enrich your life. You'll find what you described there, but so very much more.

 

[Something Amyss]

Well of course they have every right to exist, if people want to play erotic video games or whatever that's absolutely fine. One of the problems I have is that when I'm playing what is supposed to be a legitimate, serious game and this sort of thing still happens. I'm trying to play as the goddamn Batman, but when Catwoman has a skintight suit open down to her navel and starts talking in that suggestive voice it just drags me right out of it. It's just stupid, degrading and an insult to my intelligence and the intelligence of everyone else playing. It has no reason to be there.

It's difficult to even find other options as well. Is it so much to ask that a video game treats women like fucking human beings and not just eye candy? I'm not 14 anymore, I'm not going to buy a game because you promised me tits.

EDIT: And I should have added of course, that the way it makes a lot of women feel is a problem that should go without saying. When a female gamer doesn't have any sort of outlet in this medium then there's a problem.

But you specifically named Dragon's Crown, so I went with that. It's an unabashedly "sexy" game aimed at adolescent fantasy.

On the Batman note, I found it both annoying and HILARIOUS in that scene in Batman where Catwoman was tied up and upside down how she managed to not slip out of that outfit.

I'm confused as to why you were trying to play as Crazy Steve, though. He's nothing but trouble.

But as a whole, yes, there's a problem. You brought DC up in a vacuum, though, and I don't have a problem with it in itself. Except I find the artwork ugly and grotesque. I like boobs, but those are something Lovecraft would write about.

I do still think it comes down to the response of the fanbase, though. It's like the gun control issue: few people actually want to eliminate guns in the US, yet anyone who even suggest that just maybe the 9-11 hijackers shouldn't have had the right to buy firearms is a nazi trying to take away our guns.

The minute that DC got a bad review, suddenly it was right back to the PC feminazi censorship claims. Women want to take their games away, just like Saddam Hussein did!

and the best part is that they asked why feminists had to make such a big deal about it.

Except we didn't. One reviewer said something less than flattering and they exploded. Who made a big deal about it?

well, my post is about as much satire as gaming's portrayal of women is satire.

Oh. Well...Huh. Fair enough, I guess. I guess I'm just not scared of feminists being on here taking on dudes who insist there's no problem. It looks like a pisstake to me, but I guess maybe to someone who's complaining about how women dare want representation in games, it might be flippin' terrifying.

In any case, preach on.

 

[Something Amyss]

So when did The Escapist become deathly afraid of women? It's like the idea of women trying to assert some say in the video game sphere is like a rapid infection of a limb that must be cut off to stop the growth.

Become? Doesn't that imply it once wasn't?

This may have grown in presence in the time since the TVW Kickstarter, but it's been here as long as I've been here. Hell, it's been here as long as I was even browsing the site without a username or account.

D'you know what more female representation and feminist influences in videogames actually means? Diversity.

Yeah, but gamers complain about that, too.

What is making a 'mountain out of a molehill' is 'Waaaah feminism! It hurts my past time'.

But just think about all the ways women in gaming impacts you!

...And when you find one, let me know.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

'ZOMG Anita Sarkeesian blocked teh comments! That's against the First Ammendment and a YouTube video IS America!' Well I'd probably do the same if I was threatened with murder and rape and called anti-Semitic slurs because I had the audacity to make some videos. I wonder how many rape threats the guys who started the 'Tropes vs. Men' Kickstarter received? Because I bet it was zero.

ZOMG! Sarkeesian had been blocking comments on her videos long before that! OMG! The Kickstarter had been going on for two weeks before her video and had only reached 1/3 of its goal! HOLY CRAP! She actual apologized for the trolling that was going to happen in the comments of her video before they were even posted! GOLLY GEE WILIKERS! She kept the comments open only until the Kickstarter ended!

Nothing suspicious here.

This question came up couple weeks ago in a blog. It detailed one guy's experience playing an online multiplayer game. He performed a violent action against a male avatar that he has done hundreds of times before. A female voice, who was playing that particular male avatar, accused him of being sexist for doing that to her. If that wasn't enough of a buzzkill, half an hour later, she tracked him down in the game and continue to berate him.

Forgive my cynicism, but did he provide proof? A video, a sound recording, his report to the game mods, anything at all? Because there are literally thousands of clearly made-up stories floating around the web about "hysterical women" treating whatever they don't like as sexism. Can he actually prove that he didn't make the story up as part of some imaginary point-scoring game?

Sarkeesian doesn't need to give proof for how it's, " dangerously irresponsible to be creating games in which players are encouraged and even required to perform violence against women in order to ?save them?." without everyone nodding their heads and going, "Yes... that is quite true, well said." Why should this person?

And I'll leave that as the last I talk about Sarkeesian as I'm sick to death of talking about her as much as I am about sexism in gaming.

My real problem with feminism in gaming is how much it seems to have become like carpet bombing, hit anything and everything and don't care about the collateral damage. It doesn't seem focused on creating things but instead removing them.