Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[Carpenter]

Oh dear. So, a woman said something unsavory, because there was a cause she could latch onto and suck dry, like a mosquito that feeds on excuses (really, I think people do this to make up for their lack of skill)?

Isn't that always how it works? A woman does something we don't like, and it's "women, mirite?" But it is the same for any other group. A muslim blows something up, all Muslims are terorists. When a Christian blows something up, it's totally different. A loud black man is so totally "typical," even though loud angry white men are also very common and nobody bats an eyelash.

So, if someone calls you (well, I guess, not the OP, since the event he described didn't even happen to him) gay as an attempt to insult you, would this topic be "Should Homosexuality and Gaming Mix?"?

Mostly, I wonder if this response would be different:

No. I dont like feminism. I prefer general equality, instead of limiting to one group. Though I am gay and focus on LGBT rights, I would rather be a human rights person than a gay rights person. Also I think alot of feminism that attacks gaming is misguided. Gaming is targeted at straight men. So alot of what happens makes sense. But even non straight men people enjoy gaming (like me), since its more than just DOA. Plus what about things aimed at straight women? Just because they dont care so much about blunt sexualification, the same thing happens in a different light. Maybe the next romantic "chick flick" should be made more equal by adding a few explosions? I could go into a lengthier explanation, but it would be too long.

That's not the issue. It's not "should women and gaming mix" so your homosexuality thing isn't really a decent comparison.

What the hell is with the "behind the craft" ad covering up the portion of the screen that lets me see what I am typing?!
Plenty of space elsewhere!

 

[Smeatza]

I'm afraid you really haven't; you've just managed to not even detect it because it's so normal.

How dismissive.

Killer Is Dead [https://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&biw=1920&bih=950&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=%22Killer+is+dead%22+characters&oq=%22Killer+is+dead%22+characters&gs_l=img.3..0.18291.20298.0.20533.2.2.0.0.0.0.92.183.2.2.0....0...1c.1.26.img..0.2.182.cFpr_6GxEcQ]
Final Fantasy XIV Online: A Realm Reborn [http://imgur.com/RbopJJ7]
Etrian Odyssey IV: Legends of the Titan [http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire3/2de8714a5d4f51f4420483e0b2fbb0be1353527612_large.jpg]

Is it fair to hold Japanese games to western standards? Or is it fair to say that Japanese games are indicative of the game industry as a whole?
And is the sexualisation out of place? Or does it play a part in the game? perhaps character wise, or thematically.

One Piece: Pirate Warriors 2 [http://gematsu.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/OPPW2_JF13_Trailer.jpg]

Based off outside source material. Same as the above.

Rayman Legends [http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m45qrtfFOW1rn1jhjo1_500.jpg]

Femininity is not the same as sexualisation.

Castlevania: Lords of Shadow Ultimate Edition [http://castlevania.wikia.com/wiki/Marie_Belmont]

I see no problem here. No obvious objectification or sexualisation, if the wiki page you linked is correct that is.

* = No humanoid female characters
! = Actually decent, no kidnapping or sexy outfits
Disney Planes *
Madden NFL 25 *
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Out of the Shadows *
Driving Simulator 2013 *

There is no problem with having no humanoid female characters in these particular games.

As you can see from the list... yeah. It kinda does, actually. But you know what, though? I think it's fine that they have it. It's okay that they can contain those things. That doesn't trouble me. What does trouble me is that you- probably being very representative of the average person and having no malice whatsoever- didn't even notice. Out of 8 games that feature female characters, two of them pass that criteria while the rest don't, and that's exactly the point- it's so normal you don't even see it.

Less than half the games that are coming out/have come out this week, listed on gamespot. Have potential issues according to you. It's dishonest to discount the games without humanoid or female characters from you summary simply because they don't fit your view. You are making statements about the video game industry as a whole and those games are part of the video game industry as a whole.

That's why this is always taken to be some huge overreaction- it's invisible to most people. It's been so very completely normalized that it doesn't even stick in your mind. Aaand it kinda doesn't count if they just don't have women in them; the percentile when they do appear is still heavily slanted. It's a little bit worse, actually, because it makes it seem like they only get wheeled out for the fanservice and kidnap bait (which is the grievance).

That, to me, is the real issue.

You assume I'm ignorant of what constitutes a sexist, negative or damaging portrayal, just because I'm less willing to make assumptions about swathes of games. You exaggerate, ignoring larger context where it doesn't look quite as nice. Of course games exist that contain negative or damaging portrayals, and of course that should be discussed and perhaps addressed. But sensationalising the issue helps nobody.

So you basically skimmed some information and didn't immediately see anything and that disqualifies the subject?

No, I'm using an informal example of why I think extreme assertions on the subject are incorrect.

 

[ForumSafari]

Anyway, I do wonder what the next "topic of the day" will be.

I stopped coming here for a while, did we do paedophiles again yet?

 

[Arrogancy]

It's a known thing. That's why on sites with product review from customers, with equal number of positive and negative reviews, you know most of buyers were satisfied. If customer is satisfied there is no urge to go and praise the product unless it overshot our expectations by far. But if it failed it's off to customer support immediately.

Actually, this is a fallacy. If equal numbers of people wrote both positive and negative things about a product, then it tells you most people were unsatisfied. People like commenting on things they enjoy, that's why on most online polls and youtube videos, the response in the majority is positive or in favor. If large numbers of people are mobilizing to comment on how bad a product or service is, it means that they were so frustrated and annoyed that they felt impelled to write about it and comment on it.

 

[Verlander]

Should feminism and gaming mix? That's like saying "should vegetables and eating mix?". Gaming is an activity, something that we consume. Feminism is a viewpoint that can be consumed. Most people eat a little veg, some people pigheadedly refuse veg at all costs, and some go to the other extreme and only eat veg. That's the relationship. You can't mix, or stop mixing the two.

 

[carnex]

--

Different things mate.

When you like something you say you like it and maybe defend it if someone attacks it. If you don?t like it you say you don?t like it and maybe confront people who defend it.

But is something chuffs your buttocks, you go on offensive. And when you spend money on something that fails you and/or your world view it tends to chuff your buttocks. After all you spent money because you expected it to please you and if it did please you there is nothing out of the ordinary.

 

[Norithics]

Snip

Now you hold on just a hot minute.

I said the problem was that when women showed up, they were primarily getting either the cheesecake treatment or made into rescue bait.
You questioned my premise by blindly listing a bunch of recent games you did no research into at all and said that based on the synopsis there weren't any of these things.
I did the work of showing you that six times out of eight, yes, those things did happen, in the exact games you listed.

Now you've done every single possible thing- moving goalposts, appealing to culture, ignoring the damsel issue (Castlevania), and saying that the source material excuses it.

Now, even if I agreed with all of that, it still doesn't make my assertion wrong. It just means that there are reasons for them to exist. So the onus is on you, now, to prove that those girls weren't either wearing skimpy clothing or getting kidnapped and killed for Protagonist Fuel. Which would be pretty impressive to me, because I have eyeballs.
And I played Lords of Shadow.
But mostly the eyeballs thing.

 

[Carpenter]

It's a known thing. That's why on sites with product review from customers, with equal number of positive and negative reviews, you know most of buyers were satisfied. If customer is satisfied there is no urge to go and praise the product unless it overshot our expectations by far. But if it failed it's off to customer support immediately.

Actually, this is a fallacy. If equal numbers of people wrote both positive and negative things about a product, then it tells you most people were unsatisfied. People like commenting on things they enjoy, that's why on most online polls and youtube videos, the response in the majority is positive or in favor. If large numbers of people are mobilizing to comment on how bad a product or service is, it means that they were so frustrated and annoyed that they felt impelled to write about it and comment on it.

What? People like commenting on things that annoy them or that make them angry so you can kind of switch that around. People that love a game, despite what you may think, spend more time playing that game than commenting online about it.

 

[carnex]

--

So we are back to "it's only sexist when men do it" or rather in this case "it's only sexist when it's made for men"

 

[Norithics]

So we are back to "it's only sexist when men do it" or rather in this case "it's only sexist when it's made for men"

Would you like to rephrase that into a complete thought?

 

[Amaror]

So the stories people told to each other were of men really spectacular protecting a woman. Besides every one has someone they love, so everyone can relate to the scenario of having to rescue their loved one. It's simply the default story.

That hurt to read. In addition to being a gross oversimplification, it's only true if you have a very selective view of cultural stories.

Here.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/bulf/
Enrich your life. You'll find what you described there, but so very much more.

Of course it's an oversimplification. You get that i was talking about LAZY writing, right?
I know i could have phrased my post waaay better. It's not the best story we told, it's not the only story we told, but it is a story that, at least of the ones i know, has always been told. There are way more and better stories out there. Ranging from the mythology of different cultures to stories of today, but this one has always been used at least once at some point.
Because it is an easy story to tell and an easy story to get at least a little bit of engagement from your listeners.
My post was not meant to insult the great writers and storytellers of our past, but to explain why the "Hero saves victim" story gets always used by lazy writers.

 

[Verlander]

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that picture (if you agree with it, or what), but it's not very good. In the cartoon it never said that she doesn't like fit men, more that bulky men in nerd culture are examples of male fantasy. This is obviously true - they appear in titles aimed at men, with even more heavily objectified women in it. I mean, that's not really even up for discussion, is it? Secondly, the images on the front of those books aren't indicative of the stories inside them. The men in those books aren't the same men that grace the cover. Thirdly, those books are erotica, not games. Erotic media specifically idealises both sexes, but more importantly, is specifically designed for sexual gratification - unlike gaming, which nevertheless reduces the role of women to "sex object" or "prize".

Sorry if I've just made a point that you were trying to make yourself, but stupid images like that wind me up

 

[Milanezi]

Simple but true: there is FEMINISM and that's ok, as a matter of fact I'm for it, and then there's "feminism" as in "men opening a door for women is saying that they are too fragile to do it for themselves" which is the trolling version of feminism and that's not ok anywhere it only leads to rage talk, people talking nonsense and the true fems getting a bad name.

 

[prpshrt]

No.

I want to play videogames.

I don't want politics, feminism, cis-privilege, gay marriage, immigration reform, gender politics, transsexual acceptance, anti-war, pro-interventionist, abortion, PeTA or Greenpeace in my entertainment.

Take your soapbox, for whatever purpose, however valid or petty your complaints, and take it somewhere where it doesn't impact my unrelated hobby.

This. I play video games to get away from the bullcrap. In games like Dota 2, I'm the sort of person that wont swear at people but, I will start yelling if they're intentionally fucking up. At that point I don't care if the person is white, green, blue, male, female, transgender, or an amorphous blob.

 

[carnex]

So we are back to "it's only sexist when men do it" or rather in this case "it's only sexist when it's made for men"

Would you like to rephrase that into a complete thought?

I tought you could conclude the meaning from your own writing. My bad. Gave you too much credit (just poking back)

You are complaining about skimpy dressed females and female characters that are there for solely males. And in games and other media for females males are treated the same way. We are not complaining. Just like most females don't. Only small percentage do, just like some males complain about Mr. Perfects.

So, if females want equlity it's all good. Actually curving one side would be going against equality.

 

[carnex]

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that picture (if you agree with it, or what), but it's not very good. In the cartoon it never said that she doesn't like fit men, more that bulky men in nerd culture are examples of male fantasy. This is obviously true - they appear in titles aimed at men, with even more heavily objectified women in it. I mean, that's not really even up for discussion, is it? Secondly, the images on the front of those books aren't indicative of the stories inside them. The men in those books aren't the same men that grace the cover. Thirdly, those books are erotica, not games. Erotic media specifically idealises both sexes, but more importantly, is specifically designed for sexual gratification - unlike gaming, which nevertheless reduces the role of women to "sex object" or "prize".

Sorry if I've just made a point that you were trying to make yourself, but stupid images like that wind me up

And I pointed out this again and again. Men take sexuality and sexual content much, MUCH more casually then women. We are actually different and see things differently.

 

[Fleaman]

Feminism always seemed a bit odd to me, in that it has both groups complaining about slut shaming, and saying women should be able to wear whatever they want wthout society judging them for it, and groups saying a character from a game wearing a bikini is evil oppression. Then again these may well b seperate groups.

There's a simple explanation for this. A woman posing for your titillation should be thought about differently from a woman posing for your titillation who was illustrated, by a man. If Starfire wants to languish about in a bikini and have emotionless sex with all her team mates, that would be totally cool if she existed. But since she doesn't, she isn't expressing her sexual liberation; she's expressing the male 18-34 demographic's wet dream about her sexual liberation.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

Feminism always seemed a bit odd to me, in that it has both groups complaining about slut shaming, and saying women should be able to wear whatever they want wthout society judging them for it, and groups saying a character from a game wearing a bikini is evil oppression. Then again these may well b seperate groups.

There's a simple explanation for this. A woman posing for your titillation should be thought about differently from a woman posing for your titillation who was illustrated, by a man. If Starfire wants to languish about in a bikini and have emotionless sex with all her team mates, that would be totally cool if she existed. But since she doesn't, she isn't expressing her sexual liberation; she's expressing the male 18-34 demographic's wet dream about her sexual liberation.

Yes but by this logic female characters in predominantly male mediums shouldn't exist at all. Why is her being sexually titillating for the predominantly male viewership any different from her having cool powers because the viewership likes super-powered fights? It isn't... unless you mark sex as something demeaning or dirty. I don't see what is so evil about liking sexual titillation, especially if real women dressing skimpily isn't something to be looked down on.

 

[Norithics]

I know i could have phrased my post waaay better. It's not the best story we told, it's not the only story we told, but it is a story that, at least of the ones i know, has always been told. There are way more and better stories out there. Ranging from the mythology of different cultures to stories of today, but this one has always been used at least once at some point.

Oh, alright. Fair dinkum. Still, if you haven't read it, you totally should; it's a fantastic supplement to storytelling on the reading and writing end.

I tought you could conclude the meaning from your own writing. My bad. Gave you too much credit (just poking back)

Not really, considering you never referenced anything I actually wrote, but what you appear to have pretended I wrote.

You are complaining about skimpy dressed females and female characters that are there for solely males. And in games and other media for females males are treated the same way. We are not complaining. Just like most females don't. Only small percentage do, just like some males complain about Mr. Perfects.

I'm not complaining about their existence at all. In fact, to your possible dismay, I love both the scantily-clad women and the men- I draw both on the regular. What I'm complaining about is the fact that scantily-clad women are thrown out cynically and half-assedly for the purpose of broadening the base for more of those demographic dollars. Which is stupid, because as Smeatza demonstrated, this is so widespread we're all completely numb to it by now anyway to the point of its invisibility. As a writer I hate that it's the default because it's never handled believably (it takes a certain kind of person to put their cans out there on display), and as an artist I dislike it because it's always done so poorly. If you're gonna do it, do it well, don't insult us with low-poly chainmail bikinis just because. If they did it with style, it would be acceptable, but it's more often than not a tonally dissonant "let's just throw this in there" that takes away opportunities for deeper possibilities in favor of a lazy crutch.

 

[kenu12345]

Feminism always seemed a bit odd to me, in that it has both groups complaining about slut shaming, and saying women should be able to wear whatever they want wthout society judging them for it, and groups saying a character from a game wearing a bikini is evil oppression. Then again these may well b seperate groups.

There's a simple explanation for this. A woman posing for your titillation should be thought about differently from a woman posing for your titillation who was illustrated, by a man. If Starfire wants to languish about in a bikini and have emotionless sex with all her team mates, that would be totally cool if she existed. But since she doesn't, she isn't expressing her sexual liberation; she's expressing the male 18-34 demographic's wet dream about her sexual liberation.

Yes but by this logic female characters in predominantly male mediums shouldn't exist at all. Why is her being sexually titillating for the predominantly male viewership any different from her having cool powers because the viewership likes super-powered fights? It isn't... unless you mark sex as something demeaning or dirty. I don't see what is so evil about liking sexual titillation, especially if real women dressing skimpily isn't something to be looked down on.

Maybe cause while men may like to watch that; females wouldn't. That and thats not what the show or comic was really about so it pointless. You can' say you would be completly comfortable watching something you like then all of a sudden gay sex to appeal to females when it doesnt at all fit in with the show