That 3 character 10 rooms idea seems interesting, i bet it would work much better than any overly done games nowadays.
Silent Hill 2
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
Yes, I will add to the chorus regarding mocap/dialogue/simultaneous performance of
Mocap is very expensive when outsourced (Up to 30 quid per second in UK sterling). Considering the amount of dialogue used in games like Oblivion and Fallout it just wouldn't be possible to create bespoke mocap for EVERY single line of dialogue. Plus you'd either need an army of actors or one, extremely exhausted actor with a very dry mouth and achy limbs.
Mocap is very expensive when outsourced (Up to 30 quid per second in UK sterling). Considering the amount of dialogue used in games like Oblivion and Fallout it just wouldn't be possible to create bespoke mocap for EVERY single line of dialogue. Plus you'd either need an army of actors or one, extremely exhausted actor with a very dry mouth and achy limbs.
There is no formula for success.
I think this is a point worth remembering, and one that I've come to see the truth in. There is no specific set of instructions that tell how to make a "good game", and the gaming medium in itself is varied enough that any pretense of such formula would only subtract from it.
I think any "commandments" should be taken with a grain of salt, or an ocean's worth of salt for that matter. Doing something in a particular way won't ensure a game will be successful in what it does. However, the general vibe I get from these "commandments", such as they are, is not "do things this one way" (with the possible exception of the voice/mocap), but simply "do things right". What's right is pretty much open to interpretation, and while no one can say with absolute certainty what "right" is, taking example and inspiration from past examples that have done it "right" may lead to one doing the same. It's important for me to note that "example" and "inspiration" don't mean "copying" (if Pyramid Head was done right, that should mean he needs to be thrown into every game and film out there).
On the question of mocap/voices: there are a lot of references here to Oblivion and Fallout 3. I feel the examples here are completely irrelevant here, as Oblivion and Fallout 3 have no cutscenes, if one interprets cutscenes as scripted events that take over the player's control and perspective. Comparing commonplace dialogue, especially in games that are littered with it like these two examples, to cutscenes like mentioned in Silent Hill feels to me like trying to compare between apples and a slice of pizza. I can see more merit in this idea had it referred to scripted events, especially the traditional cutscene which in many cases wants to offer a more visual compelling perspective of an event (and in many cases fail for this and various other reasons)
Overall, I think there are many factors that play into the games' atmosphere and level of immersion offered. I feel Silent Hill has definitely done things "right", and that developers could learn a few things from Silent Hill in that regard: so long as it doesn't mean we get the pleasure of seeing a Hexadecagon Head in the next survival horror game to grace our presence.
(Also, Huzzah! First post on the Escapist. Completely meaningless, but whatever. Was it too long?)
I think this is a point worth remembering, and one that I've come to see the truth in. There is no specific set of instructions that tell how to make a "good game", and the gaming medium in itself is varied enough that any pretense of such formula would only subtract from it.
I think any "commandments" should be taken with a grain of salt, or an ocean's worth of salt for that matter. Doing something in a particular way won't ensure a game will be successful in what it does. However, the general vibe I get from these "commandments", such as they are, is not "do things this one way" (with the possible exception of the voice/mocap), but simply "do things right". What's right is pretty much open to interpretation, and while no one can say with absolute certainty what "right" is, taking example and inspiration from past examples that have done it "right" may lead to one doing the same. It's important for me to note that "example" and "inspiration" don't mean "copying" (if Pyramid Head was done right, that should mean he needs to be thrown into every game and film out there).
On the question of mocap/voices: there are a lot of references here to Oblivion and Fallout 3. I feel the examples here are completely irrelevant here, as Oblivion and Fallout 3 have no cutscenes, if one interprets cutscenes as scripted events that take over the player's control and perspective. Comparing commonplace dialogue, especially in games that are littered with it like these two examples, to cutscenes like mentioned in Silent Hill feels to me like trying to compare between apples and a slice of pizza. I can see more merit in this idea had it referred to scripted events, especially the traditional cutscene which in many cases wants to offer a more visual compelling perspective of an event (and in many cases fail for this and various other reasons)
Overall, I think there are many factors that play into the games' atmosphere and level of immersion offered. I feel Silent Hill has definitely done things "right", and that developers could learn a few things from Silent Hill in that regard: so long as it doesn't mean we get the pleasure of seeing a Hexadecagon Head in the next survival horror game to grace our presence.
(Also, Huzzah! First post on the Escapist. Completely meaningless, but whatever. Was it too long?)
I never really had a major problem with the Fallout/Oblivion uncanny valley thing, because the only time I looked at the character's faces was when I was carefully aiming my crosshairs between their eyes.
All the dialouge was skippable, and I read a damn-sight lot faster than I can listen, so I just sped through the bloody dialough without missing a single thing.
All the dialouge was skippable, and I read a damn-sight lot faster than I can listen, so I just sped through the bloody dialough without missing a single thing.
There is one question I have to ask O'Yahtzee, since he hates QTE so much.
What does he think about Heavy Rain so far? It's basically a nightmare of QTE after QTE for you, right? But I think it's done pretty well...
What does he think about Heavy Rain so far? It's basically a nightmare of QTE after QTE for you, right? But I think it's done pretty well...
I must applaud that. Yahtzee, you managed to beckpedal without losing any, possibly even gaining more of, that smug attitude, I'm not sure how I would have managed that.
And welcome to the Escapist. Long posts are appreciated here xP
I basically agree with what you said, and think that his intention was more along the lines of "get it right!" than anything else, despite how specific some of the suggestions were.WickedArtist said:
And welcome to the Escapist. Long posts are appreciated here xP
Ditto.Disaster Button said:
I have been enjoying Extra Punctuation, as its not so much an addendum to the ZP episode it's more or less attached to, as it is a unrequired extra. It is not needed to explain the episode, people can pass it by without missing out on anything left out. I find it a pleasure to read Yahtzee's thoughts, as they present a logic that doesn't necessarily translate into the videos. If you don't get Extra Punctuation, you dont have to. You can enjoy ZP without missing out on anything.
Afterthought: And yes, Bert is holding eye contact with you. He knows where you hid the cookies and will not relent until you come clean, Adrian!
I think one of the biggest problems with cut scenes is that they have such graphical quality differences with the rest of the game that it can seriously disrupt a players immersion. I always liked that Half-Life 2 delivered plot points and the like with something more akin to in game and somewhat interactive cut scenes. (on a side note Gordon never speaking though really does drive me crazy at some points)
Again, that really wasn't my point. I understand that I don't have to read it if I don't want to, and that's fine. I read part of the first one and then all of this one, and I will likely only read Extra Punctuation when it's something that really interests me, or follows a video I particularly enjoy. My point is, or more specifically, my question is, why? Why does Extra Puntuation exist? ZP became popular because of the format it was, lightening speed speech over colourful videos with plenty of valid points and dick jokes. It's what made all of us posting here a fan of Yahtzee, and the reason he stood out from the crowd. I'm personally not a heavy gamer, casual would be too generous a word for the type of gamer I am, but I find Yahtzee's way with words to be fantastic and his reviews both informative and hilarious. I've watched all of the videos he has on The Escapist at least twice, and I searched out his pre-Escapist work as well when I first discovered him. While it's obvious that he puts work into reviewing games, the videos make it all feel spur of the moment and off the cuff, and that adds to the scathing insults, sardonic wit, and hilarious arse jokes power. The idea that he then sits down and writes down more of his thoughts a bit later feels like he's second guessing himself.DaveMc said:
I guess I'm being a picky, anti-authoritarian ass, but I just don't understand why a) Extra Punctuation is needed, or b) What purpose it serves. Sure, he's not repeating himself, but he never disagrees with himself either, and he writes in the same way that he talks, so why take the microphone away and replace it with a pen. It's just extra work for Yahtzee that simply isn't needed. So, again, what's the point?
Don't get me wrong. I love reading/listening to Yahtzee. He's hilarious and has a similar approach to journalism as I myself do. He's honest and unmerciful and always makes it fun for the audience, and as I've said, I'll likely only read Extra Puntuation when it suits me, I just don't see why it's needed. Anything said in EP can realistically be said in ZP, and EP isn't likely to garner Yahtzee any new fans (let's face it, the majority these days don't like reading... I love reading by the way, before anyone feels the need to flame me) so... Why?samsonguy920 said:
I hate to keep repeating myself, but it's existence benefits nobody in the long run, so again, what's the point?
I agree with pretty much everything said apart from the fallout/oblivion critisism yes it is a little weird and unnerving but it adds to the charm the games are both a little bit off and out there it adds to there charm neither game needs to aim for realism they are at there best when freaky things are happening
Or we could out with the whole dubbing (i.e: content rape) and just add subtitles. Allows you to both lip synch from origin AND not murder the game for foreign audiences... Amazing!Raithnor said:
But yeah, even if you don't "lip synch" it, at least include some body movement. Mo-cap the actor's actual movement and such, but for the love of all that is holy don't just leave your chars there, standing stiff like a robot...
You are assuming everyone else thinks like you. You don't represent everyone else, you are just putting forth your own opinion. If you don't like Extra Punctuation, then dont read it. Nobody is forcing you to. I, like many others, do enjoy reading, and will continue reading EP and many other articles in the Escapist.RaiZ-R said:
The way I see it is that Zero Punctuation is used to make his point. You can watch an episode of Zero Punctuation and it will make sense without having to read anything else. Extra Punctuation, however is used to expand on the points made in the corresponding Zero Punctuation. It allows Yahtzee to explain his position, without having absolutely everyone try to second guess him. As far as I can tell, nothing major has changed in the Zero Punctuation videos since Extra Punctuation has started. They are still self contained and complete videos, so what is the big hassle?RaiZ-R said:
I'd always wondered if he was going to do a review of Silent Hill 2 (also one of my favorites) and I agree with everything he says 
The point is that the majority of people at the escapist like Yahtzee, he who increased site traffic here by a billion percent (hyperbole). The escapist has decided that more yahtzee = more happy readers, and, for the most part, they are right. I do also like the extra punctuation, I'm sure you'll be sorry to hear, even if you're right in that it may be unnecessary (depending on one's definition of "necessary"). Yahtzee, I'm sure, doesn't mind the salary he gets. And I like extra punctuation because it goes into more depth - a lot of what he says in it might be better hen it ISN'T accompanied by a cartoon.RaiZ-R said:
Also...
...RaiZ-R said:
huh.
He's not saying that. Yes, that's his opinion, he never said we didn't either. Saying "if you don't like it, you don't have to read it" has nothing to do with the point he was making. It's a shallow and poorly perceived defensive maneuver in response to the feeling that something you liked was attacked.samsonguy920 said:
A better thing may have been to argue why one DOES get something out of extra punctuation, instead of attacking his wording.
For instance, he said that everything in EP can be said in ZP, when in fact, it kind of couldn't if the episode is to be capped beneath five or six minutes, a good length for a funny delivery that doesn't drag on too long about any particular thing (a niche that EP fills perfectly).
