since when is christmass a religions event?
- Thread starter Vault101
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What? Christmas had its origins in a pagan holiday and had absolutely nothing to do with Christ. And it really was never about Jesus.Agow95 said:
/copypaste
A simple google search reveals these two interesting (and supported) details about "Christmas" or Saturnalia:
"In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians."
"Many of the most popular Christmas customs - including Christmas trees, mistletoe, Christmas presents, and Santa Claus - are modern incarnations of the most depraved pagan rituals ever practiced on earth."
- http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm
I figured that was in the spirits of how those three wise guys gave presents to Jesus...ChupathingyX said:
OT: Well Christians and atheists celebrate Christmas as far as i know. Jews have hanukka and then there's kwanza (if that's how you spell it) and then there's those Jehova people who don't celebrate Christmas at all.
I think the reason ahteists still do it despite it being a religious thing is because as the tradition goes they like getting/giving presents to people they care about. It's become more a celebration of consumerism and family than anything else, and as people we like that.
As history goes i believe it was supposed to bea celebration of Christ and his birth, but some historians tell us he was born during the spring. Personally i don't believe in anything and just try enjoying the holiday with friends and family. Overthinking it kinda kills the pleasantness of it all.
Eh, if you want to say that, why not just point to Commercialism as the religion and Christmas as one of its holidays?oktalist said:
Let us now sing from psalm 104: I need a dollar, dollar, dollar is what I need.
Hey, it's christmas - Trolls need feeding too.Jack Skelhon said:
It used to be an old Roman holiday, they decided to change it to about Christ because it was more convenient than making a whole new holiday.
Yes it was based on the pagan holiday, I'm not really religious, but I'm 99% sure Jesus was born in the spring, just from all the times my family has brought me to church. all that aside, i do believe that it has been a commercial holiday, i mean in a way it always has been, seeing as how the catholic church just seemed to "place" it in the winter over the pagan winter solstice celebration.
Originally it was the winter solstice celebrated by the PagansVault101 said:
then the Christians (to hide their faith) celebrated the birth of their savior (who was born in the summer) on that day so they could exchange gifts and celebrate their own way in disguise
time passed and they thought "Hey, since we already celebrate our religion at the same time as theirs... it'll be that much easier to convert them!"
and like that, it became a conversion tool and a point on why "converting won't change much" then they started to put their own "holidays" over the Pagan holidays (example: the whole Easter egg thing? that Christians say "it's when Christ was RE-born" well the eggs were a pagan thing involving the symbol of birth and creations)
time passed
a nation was founded on the weed-like religion (I say weed-like because thinking of what Christianity did to Paganism reminds me of how black berry bushes take over and kill the other plants that were there first and with time no one can remember anything being there but that black berry bush, lots of people love it for the berries, lots of people hate it for the thorns)
and pretty much made their outlook the ONLY outlook; etc. etc.
eventually it was grabbed up by the capitalist society as a "hey, everyone gifts on this day, let's make it a HUGE thing that we can rake in MORE money on!"
No I don't know the orgin of "Santa Clause" as we know him
but I believe it had something to do with the coca-cola concept of St. Nicolous (yeah my spelling is really off)
Hope that helps explain things
(Was it too much?)
Christmas has become very secular, but most people still remember why it is to be celebrated. It may be celebrated on a day where Saturnalia used to be, but Christians will never move the holiday, that would be too weird for them.
OT: Christmas is a day for coming together and being happy with your family and to exchange gifts, religion plays a role, but it isn't dominant anymore. We merely acknowledge miracles and get a warm feeling instead of praying. Of course, I'm speaking for the non-religious people.
OT: Christmas is a day for coming together and being happy with your family and to exchange gifts, religion plays a role, but it isn't dominant anymore. We merely acknowledge miracles and get a warm feeling instead of praying. Of course, I'm speaking for the non-religious people.
Um, it's been a religious holiday for a while...
I don't know if the holiday always was Christian, but it has been for quite some time last I checked. And it's only been recently that it's started to become a commercial holiday. Which of course means that people of other faiths can celebrate it in a non-Christian way. Although I would say that these people aren't the majority. Most people of other faiths probably have similar holidays during that time that they celebrate instead. I could be wrong though...
I don't know if the holiday always was Christian, but it has been for quite some time last I checked. And it's only been recently that it's started to become a commercial holiday. Which of course means that people of other faiths can celebrate it in a non-Christian way. Although I would say that these people aren't the majority. Most people of other faiths probably have similar holidays during that time that they celebrate instead. I could be wrong though...
Actually,...an ancient symbol for Christianity is a "P" that has a big "x" drawn through the p's stem. As I understand it, that "X" is what legitimizes using the x in "Xmas." It is still basicially saying "Christ-mass" through iconography rather than word.
First off, I think it's already been mentioned a heap of times, but Christmas was effectively adapted (from western world origins) from the Pagan festival 'celebrating' (or rather doing some weird crap to ward off bad luck or some such...) the winter solstice. Lots of fire burning and dancing around flames etc. Christ's birth has been conjectured to have been closer to, and in all likelihood, probably after, what is known as the 'Epiphany' (6th Jan).Vault101 said:
As for Santa, that was Coca Cola's machination, and I don't begrudge them for it at all. I find it pleasantly quaint and endearing.
Now, I will let the Christian in me spout verbative:
Christmas as the gift-giving celebration of the world is, to me, a load of utter crap, and not even for reasons associated with the commercialisation of the festival (not that I'd even call it a festival). No, I disapprove of the concept of giving gifts for the reason of what those original gifts represented. The gifts given on the titular 'Christmas Day' were: gold; frankincense; & myrhh.
The first was a representation of everything that Christ didn't want people to like: wealth; greed; envy etc. Gold was the common mark of the nobility, the royalty, basically, the rich. It was the common material of tender of the time but only among the wealthy. Conceptually, Christ and his view of material possession was closer to Diogenes of Sinope than any other religious standard (i.e. there is infinitely greater wealth to be found in wisdom than any amount of money you are apt to obtain). Frankincense, or rather 'khunk' as it probably would've been called at the time, was used a lot in probably several practises which Christ would've viewed with indifference if not no little amount of contempt. To the Jews, it was a symbol of life, and given his lessons later on in life, I highly doubt he would've given much stock in burning a stick as the equivalent of 'yay! a boy is born! woohoo!' (you may point at frankincense's restorative capabilities but I doubt even Arab alchemists of the time would've understood them). And myrhh, probably the least bad of the three. The signifier of death, and I'm sure with his Jewish upbringing he would've nodded with bug-eyes if he learnt that he was given something that dead Egyptians are smeared with. Regardless, all three would've been associated with everything Christ wished to remove from society: capitalism; social and financial elitism etc.
And the kicker of all this was that the Magi were expecting a royal child, one who would become king, hence the princely gifts. But consider that Christ would spend his definitive final three years effectively condemning the wealthy and noble classes, I doubt very much that he would look upon his first 'Christmas/birthday presents' with any great liking. And this begs the question: just what happened to those gifts? Probably, and all due respect to Joseph, but he probably used the gold to invest in his carpenter's shop and sold most of the frankincense and myrhh (like a good Jewish businessman), I mean, come on, a working class Judean had no place/right (in the eyes of the Romans and wealthier Judeans) to possess such luxuries.
So, what do I think should happen to Christmas? Just make it a day when everyone can get drunk, eat a lot and generally be merry (don't think God/Christ would have any problem with that, Christ attended many a party where the wine was flowing freely, so he's hardly going to complain), but it's gotten to the point where we no longer remember why gifts are exchanged. Christ received that day and I don't think he was in much position to give being a couple hours old at most, but it has only perpetuated because we as a society (even Christians, deluded bunch of dicks that a lot of us are) do not realise what we are giving for.
Instead, I am a great believer in exchanging Easter gifts. If Christians really understood the meaning of 'giving' they'd agree. When we as people give to charitable organisations, our friends, our family, our colleagues, we give something to mankind and there is genuine intent to benefit, make happy or something similar there, someone else. Christ died for absolution... we won't be able to do the same thing... ever, but at least we'd be doing some small thing to propagate the representation of that gift. And it really becomes about the giving, not the receiving.
And for those who've studied Christian theological history, what significance would Christmas have, if Easter never happened? Huh?
Now, excuse me while I prepare my flame shield.
for about 4+ thousand years or so.
its current incarnation though is about the birth (gift giving and all) of Jesus. not sure where the tree fits in though >.>
but its ALWAYS been a religions event, technically, also, being 'christian' has nothing to do with celebrating the holiday, since the real over riding theme is friends, family and getting together, not getting stuff.
give us a hard one now
like what a fucking RABBIT has to do with the death and resurrection of christ
its current incarnation though is about the birth (gift giving and all) of Jesus. not sure where the tree fits in though >.>
but its ALWAYS been a religions event, technically, also, being 'christian' has nothing to do with celebrating the holiday, since the real over riding theme is friends, family and getting together, not getting stuff.
give us a hard one now
like what a fucking RABBIT has to do with the death and resurrection of christ
Christmas is a Christian holiday (Christ-mas), but anyone who thinks that non-Christians shouldn't be able to celebrate it has no Christmas spirit.
Christmas is fun, and saying "Nobody else can have fun but us!" is a very non-Christian attitude.
Christmas is fun, and saying "Nobody else can have fun but us!" is a very non-Christian attitude.
In Sweden Christmas is the time of year where the family gathers around the television to watch Donald Duck cartoons.
Not shitting you. That's what we all do every year.
I miss Arne Weise.
Not shitting you. That's what we all do every year.
I miss Arne Weise.
it has lots of different religious meanings and traditions involved in it, not just christian, but just because you aren't of that specific faith, i don't think that means you can't celebrate it?
*giving/recieving gifts
*coming together with family
*wrapping up the year
*joy and lots of awesome christmas cookies
what's not to love?
back in the day i went to lots of my jewish friends bar mitzvah's, and most of us weren't jewish, but that didn't mean we couldn't be respectful and celebrate it. same principle applies here.
*giving/recieving gifts
*coming together with family
*wrapping up the year
*joy and lots of awesome christmas cookies
what's not to love?
back in the day i went to lots of my jewish friends bar mitzvah's, and most of us weren't jewish, but that didn't mean we couldn't be respectful and celebrate it. same principle applies here.
Yes, it developed from the mythology of the Norse god Odin bestowing prosperity on those that had been particularly welcoming that year, but this was obviously not for children. It's a religious event because of the celebration of the "birth of Jesus" even though it's not until March. The date was taken because the only day for Romans to celebrate without abandon was December 25th, the Winter Solstice.ChupathingyX said:
Here's something a bit off-topic that I think I need explained: Why is the phrase "Oh my God!" used by Atheists, who clearly don't believe that there even is a God, or by people in public schools or other places in general, but don't allow praying? You're calling out for something you don't believe in, or that isn't accepted. My brain can't comprehend this. Can someone explain?
wel... it USED to be a christian holiday, yes the date was taken from pagens, but in the general theme it was a christian holiday. nowadays its a matirialistic orgy. But I celebrate just the spirit of the season and try to be a good guy to folks, maybe help around with folks and give gifts
Christmas happens when it did because it was meant to make the transition from the Sattenalia to Christmas. The giving of gifts and setting up of trees is entirely commercial therefore the only bit about Christmas which is truly religious is the praying.