Six Hearthstone Cards That Need a Good Nerf

[The Madman]

The only cards which I think need a drastic rethinking are Pyroblast and Mind Control, because neither of those cards are just any fun to play against.

Pyroblast is unfun because for a great many classes there's just nothing you can do about it. If you had a rocky start against a mage but then went the rest of the game absolutely dominating them, it wont matter because if you can't kill them before 10 mana it's over. That's no fun, it's just frustrating.

Mind Control meanwhile has much the same problem. Against any class other than priest there's always those last-ditch moments where maybe you've been doing badly but you just got the 'perfect' minion to help, and suddenly the game is re-invigorated. But with priests that just can't happen, you're too nervous to play any big creatures late-game because you know they'll just get stolen and when finally you are forced to play them, well, they get stolen and you've lost without even having had a chance to fight back.

It takes an entire dynamic out of the match. It's just no fun.

Everything else can be annoying at times or can be frustrating, but can also be worked around. The Force of Nature/Savage Roar combo? Powerful, but it actually takes two cards to pull off and can also be prevented or mitigated via something as simple as a weakling taunt minion. Murloc War Leader? Annoying as hell, but murloc are weak on their own. Prevent them from building up numbers and you should be just fine. Leeroy? Sure he hits hard and has a low cost, which means rogues can do some truly crazy stuff with him, but again it takes effort and can be prevented and mitigated.

Even Ragnaros, who's an annoying SOB who probably should be cost more for how powerful he is, is still at least fair. Flood the board with cheap minions and suddenly that 8 dmg chance is picking off Loot Hoarders instead of doing anything useful. Or, y'know, just shoot the guy with a Big Game Hunter. I keep a pair of those guys in my druid deck for just such occasions (Since Druids lack good big removal otherwise).

 

[Rag Doll]

Like everyone else, I disagree with just about everything, exept maybe Ragnaros. I like the 8/8/8 symmetry the card has going on but there is no sense for a card that's mor powerful than dragons to be cheaoer than one.

As for nerfs I WOULD like... is one mana increase enough for UTH? it's not like it's always a turn 3/5 play (with buzzard). Limiting the number of hounds is what the card needs, though that would make the card kinda silly...

Mages are overpowered, in my opinion. They have arguably the best hero power, combined with the best direct damage, the best stall and most removal spells in the game. Something has to go. there are many options, say, increasing Flamestrike cost, dropping mirror image toughness, making vaporize damage based removal...you get the idea. There isn't really a single card, but a combination of various powerful effects makes mages very versatile and dangerous.

And finally, some buffs: Priests need heals. I'm not saying I want greater heal back, but I would like another tool into the Auchenai soulpriest toolbox. Weirdly enough, the priest is lacking a targeted large heal.

Certain 1-toughness creatures, like dust devil and the windfury snake are dead cards against 1-damage hero powers. (mage, rogue, druid) Having a good card that has a 33% chance of being a dead card is just bad design, and it would be better if this was fixed.

...hmmm. I guess that's all. Don't want to get greedy.

 

[RedDeadFred]

Honesly, I disagree with all of these.

Rag: There are a lot of ways to deal with Rag: BGH, Polymorph, Hex, Assassinate, a simple burst of dmg, Mind Control (although they'd have to be pretty dumb to play rag without fishing for Mind Controls first -unless they played him on 8 that is). Heck, if you're a swarm deck, you can ignore him and go for the face if you can confidently set up for lethal. Also, he's 8 mana so they probably aren't going to be doing much else that turn, if anything.

Warleader: No, just no. It's the only thing that makes the Murloc deck work. The sad thing is, Murloc isn't even the best aggro deck. Aggro hunter, mage, and Zooloc are all better (Zooloc especially so).

Savage Roar: Yes it's great in a combo but taunts get in the way of it. And if we're really wanting to nerf stuff based on them doing more dmg than Pyroblast (which isn't even that good anymore), you should be calling for them to nerf Fireball. Two of those is 12 dmg for 8 mana and they're effected by spell dmg, unlike the combo you're talking about.

Knife Juggler: He's extremely easy to remove. Yes, he can fuck with divine shield and will be a nuisance if you can't get rid of him, but that don't really happen that often. Plus you're relying on the RNG gods with him (another reason I don't think Rag is too bad).

Leeroy: He's 6 dmg for 4 mana and he can't get around taunts. However, given just how many decks put him to good use (in comobos, he's not that bad on his own), I do think that out of all the cards you listed, he's the only one even close to needing a nerf.

Again, I'd rather see them buff underused cards than nerf all the popular ones. I do think that with all the cards they've nerfed so far, all of the cards deserved it (just not to the extent that Pagle and Tinkmaster got).

Edit: Removed the random aside about not being able to quote. Had some weird extension that was interfering. It sneaked into my Chrome but I found it and killed it.

 

[KDR_11k]

Keep in mind that a regular fireball is a better deal than a single use Leeroy so you do need to get a combo out of him.

The only cards which I think need a drastic rethinking are Pyroblast and Mind Control, because neither of those cards are just any fun to play against.

Both of these are 10 mana cards though, you cannot play them in a turn where you do ANYTHING else and if you draw them earlier than turn 10 you've got dead weight in your hand. Both open you up to being overrun before you even hit turn 10.

PB has a very low damage to mana ratio, hell, two fireballs do more damage for less mana. Yes, two PBs leave you nearly dead but that's two cards that could completely ruin the opponent's early game.

MC is 10 mana for what amounts to a faceless and a shadow word. Again a dead weight for the early match, its only saving grace is that its like removal and playing a minion in one card. It's only worth the cost when there's something valuable to control, a board full of 4-5 costers won't really change much from an application of MC, a flamestrike is much nastier for most boards than MC.

 

[Kyber]

If you're worried about Rag just run a Big Game Hunter. I have no idea why people don't make him standard in every deck, he is fucking godlike lategame

Because Big Game Hunter in your hand makes you very sad when playing against Zoo Warlock and Hunter, some of the strongest decks around.

Am I missing something but how is having a single BGH in your deck such a bad move against a Hunter or Warlock? I don't particularly pay close attention to the meta but people do tend to play big cards at some point in the game (again Rag.) He's even a failsafe if something like a Hyena gets too big, something that can happen instantly because lol Doggies. It's only one card in 30 so even if he's not the best in that particular matchup you have another 29 cards to use. Hunter and Warlock aren't the only things played (buff something Paladin, I dare you) and I never really have trouble with Warlocks anyway. Well maybe that's because all of them are playing Murloc decks and they are really freaking bad. I hit around 10/15hp on average then manage to get leverage and wipe the board and a Murloc deck can't continue to function once it gets shut down once.

He said Zoo Warlock, and by Hunter he probably meant the typical rushdown hunter, both of those decks almost never have big minions, maybe King Crush but even that's rare.

 

[drakonz]

I disagree with all but Ragnaros and possibly Leeroy.

Knife Juggler doesn't need a nerf, because his ability hits a random enemy target. Using the Leeroy example, it's not always guaranteed that the two daggers from Whelps will both hit Leeroy. One might hit the enemy hero, another might hit a different target altogether.

Murloc Warleader doesn't need a nerf, due to being an instant Silence target as soon as he is summoned and being reliant on having other Murlocs on his side of the board to re-coup his cost.

Savage Roar (and Bloodlust, which i'm surprised you didn't put in SR's place) is fine for a similar reason as the Warleader. It requires minions to be on the board to be of any use and most opponents will make sure a druid (or Shaman) has as few minions on the board as humanly possible to remove the threat.

Leeroy is a difficult one, due to requiring the opponent to be ready for him to drop at a moments notice. The only reason most people struggle with him is due to his popularity in aggro decks, which are practically the norm in HS (outside the EU, where Control Druid is the go-to deck at top level, IIRC). Once more cards are added which balance between Aggro and Control better, then Leeroy should cease to be a major issue.

As for Faceless Manipulator...no. He mimics a big, scary thing...but he can't do anything until the following turn. This gives opponents a full turn to deal with it, thereby making it a waste of 5 mana. With the Raggy example, most smart players will attempt to bait a Hex/Poly/Assassinate etc early, especially if they're relying on Ragnaros (or any high-end Legendary) in late game. Your example does also rely on everyone having such a card in their deck which, at the moment, most do. However, if Raggy does get nerfed, then FM might see less use and be seen as less OP.

I'm not sure what Ragnaros needs, possibly a mana cost increase to 9, thereby making it compete with the Dragon Aspects for a spot.

actualy savage roar can deal 14 damage without having single unit in board in previous turn. savage roar + force of nature is common game finisher combination and with any other unit its usualy 20+ damage (oftenly its imposible to clear late game druid board past turn 7 every time)
and problem with leeroy is the fact you can deal 0ver 20+ damage with him using rogue or shaman in single turn. so nerfing him so he cant be targeted by spells by player who summoned him would most likely make him balanced.
otherwise i agree with you juggler and murlock warleader wont rly need nerf and ragnaros would be fine with 9 mana

The only cards which I think need a drastic rethinking are Pyroblast and Mind Control, because neither of those cards are just any fun to play against.
.

both of those cards are predy much dead past rank 15 so i dont see reason to change them unless you are talking about buff

 

[Vrach]

Basically, nope. Everything is playable against there:
1) Ragnaros might be the only exception here, but it's still 8 RANDOM damage. I've watched him slam into a Loot hoarder and laughed. Hard If you get to the point where your opponent can throw out any of the powerful legendaries and don't have a way to finish them off or remove the card, you were likely on the way to a loss anyway. Most class legendaries are powerful as hell as well and deserve being on here more than Ragnaros.

The bigger issue here are classes like Druid that don't really have hard removal. Naturalize is just fucking awful, putting two cards into your opponent's hand is something that really needs to change. Make it cost more, but without the card bonus for the opponent.

2) Faceless is awesome, I agree... but it can also be awful. This is a card that's only worth playing if your opponent has an amazing minion and it doesn't remove it. It's almost completely useless in mid-game and entirely useless against a deck that doesn't rely on really powerful minions (which is not too rare tbh)

3) Leeroy requires a combo to be anything more than 6 damage. Yes, he can be combo'd well, but he can also backfire. Those whelps can be used for a Savage Roar or a Bloodlust if not removed. Miracle deck is interesting, but the name is well deserved. Yes, it's played and played well, but you're still vulnerable until you can pull off your one-turn combo and it can be hindered by taunts and the like. A mage can pull off a more damaging combo without any legendaries (Frostbolt+Ice Lance=pain).

4) Savage Roar=Bloodlust. Cheaper, maybe, but usually less damage too (two more from hero, but 1 less from each minion... and you should have more than two minions when using either). Counter? Don't let his shitty little 1/1 minions. It takes a while to build a deck for a lethal SR/BL and most classes can send it all to hell with a spell or two. Mage's Flamestrike says hi.

5) Fuck Murloc decks. But they are counterable, as a mate of mine can tell you as he's made one a while ago. He kicked ass at first, until his rank rose up a bit and he started playing against people who just annihilated a murloc deck every time. Still, the Warleader is one of the few things that make a Murloc deck a Murloc deck and while I hate playing against them, I don't think it's deserving of a nerf. Pirates are more weapon-based, though I've yet to see a full pirate deck tbh.

6) Knife Juggler is awesome... but very random and easy to kill. Playing a Leeroy when a Knife Juggler is out is your own fault if he gets killed right away and you'd have no one else to blame. Don't get me wrong, it's great to get two damage out of your mirror images or fuck knows how many out of UTH, but it's still situational and random. 2/2 would be a silly nerf because the 2 mana minions are generally all based around 2/3 or 3/2.

UTH nerf was deserved (and not overdone, 3 mana is okay), but knowing how much the Hunter relies on it, you can often punish them for waiting on a UTH combo. Punishing to play minions? A far more punishing thing to playing minions is a Flamestrike. The hounds need a Hyena or a Buzzard to be worth it and that takes waiting until your opponents has a number of minions (preferably at least 3) and you having both the mana and the necessary cards.

 

[The Wykydtron]

If you're worried about Rag just run a Big Game Hunter. I have no idea why people don't make him standard in every deck, he is fucking godlike lategame

Because Big Game Hunter in your hand makes you very sad when playing against Zoo Warlock and Hunter, some of the strongest decks around.

Am I missing something but how is having a single BGH in your deck such a bad move against a Hunter or Warlock? I don't particularly pay close attention to the meta but people do tend to play big cards at some point in the game (again Rag.) He's even a failsafe if something like a Hyena gets too big, something that can happen instantly because lol Doggies. It's only one card in 30 so even if he's not the best in that particular matchup you have another 29 cards to use. Hunter and Warlock aren't the only things played (buff something Paladin, I dare you) and I never really have trouble with Warlocks anyway. Well maybe that's because all of them are playing Murloc decks and they are really freaking bad. I hit around 10/15hp on average then manage to get leverage and wipe the board and a Murloc deck can't continue to function once it gets shut down once.

He said Zoo Warlock, and by Hunter he probably meant the typical rushdown hunter, both of those decks almost never have big minions, maybe King Crush but even that's rare.

Literally just shut a Hunter the fuck down with a single Big Game Hunter. He UTH'd all my minions after playing a Hyena (yeah, that old trick) buffing it to a 7 attack creature. IMMEDIATELY killed by BGH, no damage on me, several cards and board presence wasted by him giving me the advantage in momentum and cards which he never recovered from even with his second UTH.

Shutting down that instant super buffed Hyena with him is actually better than waiting for his legendaries to come out lategame.

But no, "So bad vs Hunter decks lol"

I don't even know what Zoo Warlock actually is, everyone is still just playing Murloc on EU or something. Is it the early double Flame Imps thing?

 

[drakonz]

3) Leeroy requires a combo to be anything more than 6 damage. Yes, he can be combo'd well, but he can also backfire. Those whelps can be used for a Savage Roar or a Bloodlust if not removed. Miracle deck is interesting, but the name is well deserved. Yes, it's played and played well, but you're still vulnerable until you can pull off your one-turn combo and it can be hindered by taunts and the like. A mage can pull off a more damaging combo without any legendaries (Frostbolt+Ice Lance=pain).

taunts are usualy instandly removed against miracle rogue and usualy the moment you see leeroy you are dead you never get the change to use those whelps for anything at all and that makes it extrmery broken 26 damage in single turn with empty board is something that just should not be happening expelialy since there is usualy no way of removing miracle rogues card draw thanks to conceal

 

[Lightspeaker]

Somewhat amused by all of the suggestions really. Both in the article and this thread.

Article:
- Knife Juggler. He's a solid 3/2 for 2 with an unpredictable ability. Compared to Bloodfen Raptor and River Crocolisk he's ahead of the curve. But he's pretty much on par with the likes of Mad Bomber and Wild Pyromancer (arguably Bomber is better because his triggers right away, but its WAY more unpredictable).

- Murloc Warleader. Murloc decks aren't that popular anyway for good reason. And he's very easy to deal with. Yeah, those decks are annoying but they run out of steam quickly if you react properly.

- Savage Roar. Typically used in a combo with Force of Nature. Its ok; but its a one-turn buff for a class that doesn't really have a "free" way to fill their board. If you want to pick this one out I'd argue a worse offender is Bloodlusted Totems from Shaman.

- Leeroy. No. He's a charge minion with a significant downside that opens up a number of interesting playstyles. He's pretty much bang on for mana cost due to said downside and can be played around.

- Faceless Manipulator. Very easy to end up as a dead card in your hand. Its really not that strong.

- Ragnaros. Rag is one of probably four "must have" legendaries along with Cairne, Thalnos and Leeroy. But he plays slow. For his mana cost his effectiveness is pretty much fine since a smart opponent will have removal stacked up. He gets removed a LOT the turn after he gets played. The only reason rag sees more play than Ysera is because Ysera plays even slower and you have to actually use the card. Ultimately you need cards like this if the control or ramp decks are going to be in any way playable. You can't have every deck being tempo or aggro.



This thread:
- Flamestrike gets a lot of hate but is very easy to play around.

- Mind Control is one of the few effective Priest cards. Priest is a VERY weak class at present with poor class options. And Mind Control is one of the slowest cards in the entire game; most Priests only run one at most. It was nerfed to hell about six months ago and any further nerfs to the card would make it unplayable. In fact many are relying mainly on Mindgames and Thoughtsteal instead of it.

- Pyroblast is by far one of the most annoying cards to go against in Arena. Then again Mage is by far the strongest class in arena, whilst being either the weakest or second weakest in constructed. Tends not to be seen in constructed at any decent level because it plays way too slowly for too little impact. At least Mind Control gives a minion to play with.

The only cards which I think need a drastic rethinking are Pyroblast and Mind Control, because neither of those cards are just any fun to play against.
.

both of those cards are predy much dead past rank 15 so i dont see reason to change them unless you are talking about buff

There's a couple of exceptions. I play my own style of Draw-Priest with Double MC being two of my lategame threats and have been comfortably past 15 both this season and last and I've seen one or two people running MC there too. But most typical decks don't run more than one of either (actually I don't think I've ever seen a Pyroblast in constructed at anything above rank 20; the only Mages I see are magic damage aggro Mages).

I don't even know what Zoo Warlock actually is, everyone is still just playing Murloc on EU or something. Is it the early double Flame Imps thing?

What rank are you playing at? I'm on EU and I literally see NOTHING but Handlock and Zoolock from Warlock players, mainly Zoolock. I've played a single Murloc player and that was in Casual. From people I know that play close to Legend level the entire thing is just packed with Hunters and Zoolock.

Incidentally: simple Zoolock deck:
http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=32025/zoolock

 

[Kyber]

If you're worried about Rag just run a Big Game Hunter. I have no idea why people don't make him standard in every deck, he is fucking godlike lategame

Because Big Game Hunter in your hand makes you very sad when playing against Zoo Warlock and Hunter, some of the strongest decks around.

Am I missing something but how is having a single BGH in your deck such a bad move against a Hunter or Warlock? I don't particularly pay close attention to the meta but people do tend to play big cards at some point in the game (again Rag.) He's even a failsafe if something like a Hyena gets too big, something that can happen instantly because lol Doggies. It's only one card in 30 so even if he's not the best in that particular matchup you have another 29 cards to use. Hunter and Warlock aren't the only things played (buff something Paladin, I dare you) and I never really have trouble with Warlocks anyway. Well maybe that's because all of them are playing Murloc decks and they are really freaking bad. I hit around 10/15hp on average then manage to get leverage and wipe the board and a Murloc deck can't continue to function once it gets shut down once.

He said Zoo Warlock, and by Hunter he probably meant the typical rushdown hunter, both of those decks almost never have big minions, maybe King Crush but even that's rare.

Literally just shut a Hunter the fuck down with a single Big Game Hunter. He UTH'd all my minions after playing a Hyena (yeah, that old trick) buffing it to a 7 attack creature. IMMEDIATELY killed by BGH, no damage on me, several cards and board presence wasted by him giving me the advantage in momentum and cards which he never recovered from even with his second UTH.

Shutting down that instant super buffed Hyena with him is actually better than waiting for his legendaries to come out lategame.

But no, "So bad vs Hunter decks lol"

I don't even know what Zoo Warlock actually is, everyone is still just playing Murloc on EU or something. Is it the early double Flame Imps thing?

Rushdown hunters almost never use the hyena, so you probably weren't playing against a rushdown hunter, which was the one I was referring to.

You see, in high ranks, like Legendary, people only play few decks, which are proven to work,(Control-Druid/Warrior/Shaman, rushdown hunter, Zoo Warlock, even Hand-Lock). I don't think I've seen a single Murloc deck since Rank 7, and that was a while ago, so I don't think you're playing against high ranks, in low ranks though, you can just play how you feel.

Zoo Warlock is a warlock deck that uses varying low cost, low attack minions, so BGH is usually just a dead card(a card that sits in your hand doing nothing), just like against rushdown hunter, in which the most you'll get out of BGH is King Crush, if they happen to play it, which they usually don't (it's too slow), and if you happen to be alive after they play it(it's usually a finisher).

Keep playing, keep learning, soon you'll be on par with the meta.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Certain 1-toughness creatures, like dust devil and the windfury snake are dead cards against 1-damage hero powers. (mage, rogue, druid) Having a good card that has a 33% chance of being a dead card is just bad design, and it would be better if this was fixed.

...hmmm. I guess that's all. Don't want to get greedy.

No they're just bad cards because they are high risk for high reward. Dust devils can end the game in 3 turns so they need to have some draw back. Also you're assuming that the chance of getting a Mage, Rogue or Druid is equal to all other classes which it isn't.

Edit: They're bad cards in a relatively early game dominated meta.

 

[The Wykydtron]

If you're worried about Rag just run a Big Game Hunter. I have no idea why people don't make him standard in every deck, he is fucking godlike lategame

Because Big Game Hunter in your hand makes you very sad when playing against Zoo Warlock and Hunter, some of the strongest decks around.

Am I missing something but how is having a single BGH in your deck such a bad move against a Hunter or Warlock? I don't particularly pay close attention to the meta but people do tend to play big cards at some point in the game (again Rag.) He's even a failsafe if something like a Hyena gets too big, something that can happen instantly because lol Doggies. It's only one card in 30 so even if he's not the best in that particular matchup you have another 29 cards to use. Hunter and Warlock aren't the only things played (buff something Paladin, I dare you) and I never really have trouble with Warlocks anyway. Well maybe that's because all of them are playing Murloc decks and they are really freaking bad. I hit around 10/15hp on average then manage to get leverage and wipe the board and a Murloc deck can't continue to function once it gets shut down once.

He said Zoo Warlock, and by Hunter he probably meant the typical rushdown hunter, both of those decks almost never have big minions, maybe King Crush but even that's rare.

Literally just shut a Hunter the fuck down with a single Big Game Hunter. He UTH'd all my minions after playing a Hyena (yeah, that old trick) buffing it to a 7 attack creature. IMMEDIATELY killed by BGH, no damage on me, several cards and board presence wasted by him giving me the advantage in momentum and cards which he never recovered from even with his second UTH.

Shutting down that instant super buffed Hyena with him is actually better than waiting for his legendaries to come out lategame.

But no, "So bad vs Hunter decks lol"

I don't even know what Zoo Warlock actually is, everyone is still just playing Murloc on EU or something. Is it the early double Flame Imps thing?

Rushdown hunters almost never use the hyena, so you probably weren't playing against a rushdown hunter, which was the one I was referring to.

You see, in high ranks, like Legendary, people only play few decks, which are proven to work,(Control-Druid/Warrior/Shaman, rushdown hunter, Zoo Warlock, even Hand-Lock). I don't think I've seen a single Murloc deck since Rank 7, and that was a while ago, so I don't think you're playing against high ranks, in low ranks though, you can just play how you feel.

Zoo Warlock is a warlock deck that uses varying low cost, low attack minions, so BGH is usually just a dead card(a card that sits in your hand doing nothing), just like against rushdown hunter, in which the most you'll get out of BGH is King Crush, if they happen to play it, which they usually don't (it's too slow), and if you happen to be alive after they play it(it's usually a finisher).

Keep playing, keep learning, soon you'll be on par with the meta.

Eh I don't particularly care to be on with the meta to be honest. I've always gone by the idea of using the cool cards over practical ones, being the best is never on my mind. I'm running fucking Elven Archers in my Priest deck for gods sake. I hit upon the idea that they could probably maybe on a good day make massive plays midgame if I were to hang on to their battlecry instead of just playing her turn 1 for the 1 damage to the face.

They just won me a game by finishing two separate Fire Elementals with their 1 damage. Yeah they're pretty fuckin' bad but the sheer style that can be achieved with them is pretty damn cool. I even try to keep Loot Hoarders alive through PW:S-ing them on turn 3 instead of just throwing them out. Oh and i'm testing having Ironfur Grizzly + PW:S.

I know Priest is the worst class right now but I feel like Blizzard was one step away from making a really good class then fucked it up somehow. Like everything is there, heals, counter heal shadow things, mind controls, kill cards but it doesn't fit for some reason. I like to think it's because they decided to add the card cloning cards instead of y'know actually making a few more Priest cards? Maybe because the Priest class in Warcraft 3/WoW could do that? I never played it but that would make more sense.

I swing around rank 19 and 15. I would be further ahead but I immediately concede every Priest v Priest game before I even look at my hand. They're just tragic to be a part of. I gave up on trying once we were both fighting over a Raid Leader or some nonsense with Cabal Shadow Priests then having the old Mind Control double swap and both of us were on full health forever and we only stopped through running out of cards.

Never again.

 

[The Madman]

Priests are countered by 4 damage minions. They really struggle with removing any minion that hits for exactly 4 damage. Gadgetzan Auctioneer, Azure Drake, Yeti, anything.

Both of these are 10 mana cards though, you cannot play them in a turn where you do ANYTHING else and if you draw them earlier than turn 10 you've got dead weight in your hand. Both open you up to being overrun before you even hit turn 10.

both of those cards are predy much dead past rank 15 so i dont see reason to change them unless you are talking about buff

Yes yes, I know how to play against the cards just fine. I've certainly put enough hours into Hearthstone that I ought to by now. But as I said originally my problem with both those cards is that they're just not any fun. Not fun to use, not fun to have used against. You can't really combo them with anything, they don't really do anything clever, they're just these two big stompy spells that end matches with a resounding sigh all-round.

If I lose to some Jenkins Rogue/Shadowstep combo, that's fine, I probably could have anticipated it and it takes a fair bit of foresight to pull off. Same with the Savage Roar/Force of Nature or even the crazy inner fire tricks Priests can pull off. Hell, even hunters with the damned Unleash the Hounds at least takes *some* effort.

By contrast again Pyro and MC are just... they're boring. That's why I dislike those two cards.

 

[Vrach]

- Flamestrike gets a lot of hate but is very easy to play around.

True, but it's a pain in the ass and the same way it can be played around, it can also be played around being played around. If you know what I mean

Basically, you're either in fear of throwing minions on the board or you're risking most/all of them getting wiped. Yes, if you can bait it out on turn 7 and have the opposing mage practically "waste" a turn and then throw minions out in response, then yes, you can fuck a mage up. But a lot of good mages aren't going to let you do that. When they have minions on the board on turn 7 and a Flamestrike in their hand, you're fucked. It doesn't matter if your minions are stronger or more numerous, they're all gonna either die (likely on turn 7, because 4 damage is a lot to minions at that point) or be left in a sorry state, ready to be picked off with Flameblasts next turn.

Btw, anyone seen what my mates and I call a Darkwell? It's fucking hilarious, throw down an Auchenai Soulpriest and a Lightwell and watch the insidious little bastard kill your wounded minions off randomly