Skyrim: Stormcloak or Empire?

[Outcast107]

snip

How is the Empire even going to win anyways? It lost the first time around when it was at full strength. How is it going to win in the second war when it lost half of its provinces and have Thalmor spies everywhere watching them.

Also it seem that you haven't even look everywhere in Windhelm. Go talk to one of the High elves of the marketplace. She doing just fine thank you. It is only the dark elves who are having trouble and only because they

-haven't pick a side in the war
-refugees, so of course they aren't going to get the best places to live if you have to make room for everyone living.
-Also seem they don't really help much in the city.

The elf in the marketplace made friends and supports the city. That's why no Nords actually care about her elven looks. They aren't racist they just don't trust any other race due to all that's going on. Hell if the Stormcloaks were purely racist and think they are better, then why the hell even let the Dark Elves or Arogians even live in/near the city.

Why not cast them out and not even let them in. Why even let them live since they are "below a nord." It just wouldn't make sense if every single Nord was racist, then why isn't there open killings of the Dark Elves and other Non-nord racist.

Also the Empire is dying off. They lost half of its support from other provinces. Probably won't get any support from Hammerfell due to how they just drop them to please the elves. Are letting the Thalmor do pretty much whatever they want (And this is just in Skyrim, I hate to see the actually Empire what the Thalmor are doing.)

So how is the Empire going to win? With just the Dragonborn. Maybe, but hell I wouldn't count on that. Their will be tons of battles going on and the Dragonborn can't be everywhere at once. Also if it turns out like the last battle, then the Empire will just sign another treaty if they can.

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

Empire, because I read the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric before doing the civil war questline, it pretty well sealed it.

Totally. When taken at face value the rebellion seems a decent enough cause, but when you learn that the Dominion is stoking the rebellion in order to weaken the Empire and to ultimately enslave all the human races it becomes a little tricky to support them.

Plus, I don't quite get the rebellion. The rebels want to be able to be free to worship Talos, yes? And they're upset because the Empire has signed a treaty with the Thalmor banning his worship. But Talos is Tiber Septim. Tiber Septim created the Empire. The very existence of an Empire is living, breathing worship of Talos, without the need for churches and temples. If the rebels revere Talos so much, why are they fighting against the Empire he created? "We are so devoted to Talos, we want to destroy his legacy." Er, what?

But it is not the same Empire that Talos made all those years ago. Tons of provinces are gone now and they only have Skyrim and High Rock. They aren't rule by Tiber Septim bloodline as well as just thinking of themselves rather then anyone else. I mean hell they sure drop Hammerfell off quickly without any second glaces back at them.

I mean hell I don't see Hammerfell ever coming back to the Empire (or at least not so soon.) I wouldn't blame them. Getting handed over to the Thalmor and then the Empire dropping you off from its provinces quickly once they started to rebel.

Also the old Empire wouldn't have given up so soon. Yes, they were beaten badly but so were the elves. As well as the Empire would still have Skyrim and Hammerfell backing them up fully. I don't care if the Empire was "force to" give up Hammerfell. You don't give up your allies so easily and expect them to follow the treaty which they didn't sign for.

Good points, but I suppose it comes down to whether or not you're an optimist doesn't it? Surely the time when the Empire is a shadow of it's former self is the very time to stand up in it's defence. I'm guessing that Talos wouldn't be very happy about seeing his Empire crumble before the Aldmeri Dominion, and be even less impressed with the satellite provinces scampering away from it like rats from a sinking ship.

Naturally Ulfric will be disillusioned with the Empire - he was after all captured and tortured (and we can guess brainwashed) by the Thalmor during the First War. Hell, the head of the Thalmor Embassy in Skyrim was Ulfric's torturer, and what does that tell you will happen if Ulfric gains 'independence' for Skyrim?

Under a different leader I reckon the rebellion could make sense. A leader who was angry at a corrupt Empire who wanted to begin a new Empire with Skyrim at it's head, an Empire that would go back to what Tiber Septim originally intended. Yeah, I can see and understand that. But Ulfric's rebellion? A rebellion that is lead by a broken and defeated man who is only one step away from being a Thalmor sleeper-agent? Nah. In that instance, "true sons of Skyrim" should stand side by side with what is left of Tiber Septim's Empire and try to hold back the Aldmeri tide.

 

[Shadowsafter]

In Skyrim you can choose to either join the (I chose Imperial because i thought Ulfric and his band of merry men were a bunch of racist pricks. Besides that i just like the Roman empire and weaponry)

Exactly what I thought. I rocked on up to Windhelm, listened to some Elves complain, talked to Ulfric then went straight to Solitude to join the Empire.
Him and his bloody Galmar Stonefist... grumble. At least the Empire aren't dicks, even if they are selling out to the High Elves.

Correction they are selling out to THE THALMOR (the genocidal high elves) rather than suffering heavy losses or extermination. The Empire hates the Thalmor like everyone else but is mature enough to realize that literal hero worship isn't worth the Thalmor killing everyone.


I hate how polar good vs evil the sides become if you decide to background check the sides a little and the contrast just becomes huge as you delve further. But I love the transition period of how you feel toward the factions details emerge.

Actually according to accounts of the Battle of Red diamond, the Aldmeri armies were utterly destroyed in the Imperial city and the Empire, while seriously hurt, still had the support of the provinces (especially Skyrim and Hammerfell, the regions that produce the toughest fighters) and could've counterattacked. The Emperor signed the White Gold Concordat because he was a coward.

I think you are confusing the War of the Red Diamond when the Imperials kick ass which is decades before with the Battle of the Red Ring which was the last battle in the war where the Imperials kick some more ass but used up their remaining energy (I had to look that up because I knew there a number of similar named events). Hammerfell apparently kept fighting (after the peace treaty provided a short break) well enough to hold back the Thalmor but got pretty much wrecked in the process, which would be the minimum of what would have likely would have happened to all of the Empire since the troops were all tired out and the Thalmor were stronger at the time. The Emperor signed the White Gold Concordat because he wanted to win later (which a lot of warriors and warrior based cultures (like the Nords) misinterpreted as just cowardice).

Dude, there's a big difference between signing a "concordat" for peace and letting go of the god you hold most sacred while allowing a secret police into your borders to do whatever evil shit they want. The empire should have resisted to the fucking end, it's what Talos would've done, and this proud Nord will follow his example, even to his death.

 

[Jamous]

I'm avoiding picking a side, mainly because I don't like either of them. In the end, I fear, I'll be pushed towards the Empire seeing as I'm an Argonian in Skyrim, and I actually want to be able to -win- when we come to fight the Thalmor again. Seriously, what stands better chances, Skyrim alone, or the remaining Empire as well as Skyrim? Also

Spoiler: Spoiler? I guess?

You find a dossier on Ulfric in the Thalmor Embassy; the Thalmor are manipulating Ulfric. He doesn't like this, but he's still dancing to their tune whether he like it or not. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

But yes. Thalmor are dicks.

Did you happen to miss the last part of the dossier?

A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

Here's what the addition of that last line tells me:
Ulfric is secretly in cahoots with the Thalmor purely because he trusts that they'll protect his interests. Obviously the Thalmor have a major grudge against the empire, what with the Great War business a few decades back, and the only thing keeping them from directly assaulting Solitude and the rest of the Imperial bases throughout Skyrim is the White-Gold Concordat. The Thalmor simply want both sides to continue a bloody civil battle with no victor, leaving both weak for the elves to defeat in the future.
Now, it's apparent that Ulfric has a subconscious dislike for the Thalmor. Why else would he object to the Thalmor agent appearing at the Greybeard Peace Conference? My belief is that that agent proposed to General Tullius that she appear at the peace conference purely so that she could report to her uppers the situation allowing the Thalmor to plan their future assaults accordingly. She used the White Gold Concordat excuse as cover, and Tullius grudgingly accepted.

So, to conclude:
The Thalmor plan to support Ulfric only during the civil war, then betray him after he has won when his military strength is weak.

So you basically have two choices:
1. Help the Empire, whose victory over Skyrim potentially violates the WGC, and reboots the Great War.
2. Help the Stormcloaks, whose victory over Skyrim causes the Thalmor to start a new war.

Both of those sound pretty shitty, but I'd rather give the Thalmor a little victory than restart The Great War.
Stormcloaks it is.

No, I didn't miss it. I know that the Thalmor want strife in Skyrim, rather than one side winning. I just said that Ulfric -is- being puppeteered by the Thalmor, knowingly or not, firstly starting the war and then keeping it going. If Ulfric never started the war the Empire wouldn't have been weakened by the strife in Skyrim. I'm probably going to side with the Empire in the end so that there's still a partially strong Empire left to face the Thalmor when the time comes.

 

[Karhukonna]

Ulfric's a stupid asshole being played like a lute by the Aldmeri Dominion. At least the Empire knows what it's doing. Even if they're doing poorly at it.

 

[ultrachicken]

Have you not noticed the seven threads of this nature that have been put out in the last few days? But I'll indulge.

The Empire is the most logical choice as far as I can tell. The Stormcloaks are fiercely racist and militant, and the Jarls that Ulfric appoints are corrupt and worthless as leaders. Not to mention that there's no way Skyrim can possibly stand up to the Aldmeri Dominion on its own.

While the Empire engages in some morally questionable tactics (torture, and a lot of the Blades' operations), it does an excellent job at keeping order under normal circumstances, and the Jarls it appoints are actually competent. Especially Free-Winter, the war hero who is actually accepting of other races, who ends up taking the xenophobic bigot Ulric's place. The best part is that with the Legion no longer crippled by civil war, access to Skyrim's people and resources, as well as the support of the Dragonborn, the Empire actually has a fighting chance against the Aldmeri Dominion.

 

[ultrachicken]

Dude, there's a big difference between signing a "concordat" for peace and letting go of the god you hold most sacred while allowing a secret police into your borders to do whatever evil shit they want. The empire should have resisted to the fucking end, it's what Talos would've done, and this proud Nord will follow his example, even to his death.

Actually, pretty much everyone still worships Talos. Citizens can't really go around shouting at Thalmor Justiciars about how much they want to blow Talos, but beyond that, the people can do whatever they want under the White Gold Concordat.

Not to mention that the concordat is going to be overturned very, very soon, as there isn't going to be peace between the Empire and the Altmer for long. Submitting to it was a practical matter, as there's no reason to allow yourself to be destroyed when you can bide your time and earn victory later.

 

[HK_01]

Okay, I just went to Windhelm for the first time, I'm playing a Dunmer by the way, and I thought that maybe I'd get to see some good sides of the Stormcloaks. But no. On the contrary. I've spoken to like five people and the only ones who didn't throw some derogatory comments my way were the elves who live there and the little boy from the Dark Brotherhood quest. I've been in the city for maybe five or ten minutes and want to kill everyone. Yeah, I think my impression that I'll most likely go with the Empire was correct.

 

[Nimetz]

Joined Imperials because they don't hate Argonians. :< Tried SC's first, and I kept getting calls a lizard. Pfft, look more Dragonborn then a Nord so. :3

 

[Broady Brio]

I chose a Breton. I've yet to choose a side, but I have been siding towards the Empire.

 

[jad4400]

I got Skyrim for Christmas and am currently weighing the choices. At first I fled with the Storm cloaks because I was pissed I was about to be executed and Ralof was actually pretty cool. Then I actually went about and explored the cities of Skyrim and I have to say, the Storm Cloaks really don't seem all that appealing.

Spoiler: Why The Storm Cloaks don't seem appealing

The Empire territories in Skyrim just seems better run and safer in general, Solitude is a beautiful city, Whiterun is prosperous and all the cities are in general pretty good. Stromcloak cites seem pretty desolate, their capital Windhelm is poor and the citizens had to worry about a serial killer because Ulfric couldn't be assed to pull a couple soldiers from combat to investigate and their economic hub: Riften is a wretched hive of scum and villainy and their Jarl is just a puppet for the thieves guild.

The charater of the Jarls tells a lot:

Empire:

Jarl of Solitude: The High King's widow, who while inexperienced, is compassionate and knows how to delegate to those who know what to do

Jarl of Falkreath: A bit of a douche who doesn't care about ruling, but still knows to delegate all important matters to competent individuals to rule his land effectively.

Jarl of Morthal: A seer who carefully weights her actions and is deliberate in her decisions.

Jarl of Markarth: A bit tempered, but he is honorable, he was willing to make a deal with Ulfric, but knew when the greater good came before Ulfirc, he had to pick the greater good.

Rebel:

Jarl of Windhelm: Ulfirc is a xenophobe who wants to be king over all the land, yet his city is in shambles and he couldn't even get enough personnel to solve a horrific serial killing.

Jarl of Riften: Is an ineffectual puppet for the Black-Briars, who in turn rule ruthlessly with threats of the thieves guild and the Dark Brotherhood.

Jarl of Dawnstar: Thinks that anyone not supporting the insurrection is a traitor and should be killed, even threatens several people with death for simply wearing their old Legion uniforms.

Jarl of Winterhold: Thinks Ulfric is the best thing ever, and will make things all sunshine and rainbows. Hates mages even though the college is really the only thing keeping his town afloat (although given the past disaster, this isn't totally unjustified).

Plus out of the two sides positions, the Empires seems a lot more sound: Basically the Empire needs to stay together so that when the next round of fighting against the elves starts up, humans can protect themselves with a massive Imperial army and hopefully not lose anymore ground to the elves.

The rebels seem to share the same FUCK ELVES! position as the Empire, but seem to think that when a unified foe is threatening your entire existence, its better to balkanize because of several peace concessions made in the first round of fighting, rather than stand united against their foe.

 

[Outcast107]

I got Skyrim for Christmas and am currently weighing the choices. At first I fled with the Storm cloaks because I was pissed I was about to be executed and Ralof was actually pretty cool. Then I actually went about and explored the cities of Skyrim and I have to say, the Storm Cloaks really don't seem all that appealing.

Spoiler: Why The Storm Cloaks don't seem appealing

The Empire territories in Skyrim just seems better run and safer in general, Solitude is a beautiful city, Whiterun is prosperous and all the cities are in general pretty good. Stromcloak cites seem pretty desolate, their capital Windhelm is poor and the citizens had to worry about a serial killer because Ulfric couldn't be assed to pull a couple soldiers from combat to investigate and their economic hub: Riften is a wretched hive of scum and villainy and their Jarl is just a puppet for the thieves guild.

The charater of the Jarls tells a lot:

Empire:

Jarl of Solitude: The High King's widow, who while inexperienced, is compassionate and knows how to delegate to those who know what to do

Jarl of Falkreath: A bit of a douche who doesn't care about ruling, but still knows to delegate all important matters to competent individuals to rule his land effectively.

Jarl of Morthal: A seer who carefully weights her actions and is deliberate in her decisions.

Jarl of Markarth: A bit tempered, but he is honorable, he was willing to make a deal with Ulfric, but knew when the greater good came before Ulfirc, he had to pick the greater good.

Rebel:

Jarl of Windhelm: Ulfirc is a xenophobe who wants to be king over all the land, yet his city is in shambles and he couldn't even get enough personnel to solve a horrific serial killing.

Jarl of Riften: Is an ineffectual puppet for the Black-Briars, who in turn rule ruthlessly with threats of the thieves guild and the Dark Brotherhood.

Jarl of Dawnstar: Thinks that anyone not supporting the insurrection is a traitor and should be killed, even threatens several people with death for simply wearing their old Legion uniforms.

Jarl of Winterhold: Thinks Ulfric is the best thing ever, and will make things all sunshine and rainbows. Hates mages even though the college is really the only thing keeping his town afloat (although given the past disaster, this isn't totally unjustified).

Plus out of the two sides positions, the Empires seems a lot more sound: Basically the Empire needs to stay together so that when the next round of fighting against the elves starts up, humans can protect themselves with a massive Imperial army and hopefully not lose anymore ground to the elves.

The rebels seem to share the same FUCK ELVES! position as the Empire, but seem to think that when a unified foe is threatening your entire existence, its better to balkanize because of several peace concessions made in the first round of fighting, rather than stand united against their foe.

I just want to say, the only reason the Stormcloaks seem run down is because they are putting everything in the war and plus are probably a lot older then the Empire cities. Plus the Empire isn't all that great either. They pay off people to support them and make a lot of dumb choices. Like if you go with Empire, the Empire replaces Jarl of Riften with a member of Black-Briars. So that's even worst then just being a puppet.

Also the Empire isn't even together any more (if this is your first Elder Scrolls then its understandable). The empire was much larger then what it is now. It lost most of its allies due to the huge war and given up Hammerfell just to please the Thalmor. Then when Hammerfell fought off the elves, the Empire drop them off as allies.

snip

Mind if I ask what victory? If the Empire lost the first time at full strength how are they going to win this time around? The Thalmor got the Empire in a civil war, gave up their allies, and bickering among their selfs. Plus from what we seen in Skyrim, the Thalmor have Forts all around the place to torture people in.

You can't tell me that the Empire can't do a surprise attack since the Thalmor can just kidnap someone and say "They are a Talos worshiper" or a "Stormcloak supporter" And the Empire doesn't really do anything to stop this. Sure, the Stormcloaks aren't better with their racism, but at least they don't round up their OWN people (Or let others do it) to be torture and killed.

The only reason I support Stormcloaks is because it will split up the Thalmor way to much. Having to watch their homeland from attacks from rebels and any attack from the other factions, having to keep forces within Empire to keep it under control, and doing a invasion of Skyrim (Which everyone says its going to happen if Stormcloaks win). That's WAY to much to do unless they somehow got some allies they are keeping a secret. Plus Skyrim is a cold, harsh place. I don't see supplies lasting long enough for a huge army to maintain. It reminds me of Russia.

 

[Karma168]

I went empire because... well because i got sent near solitude for a quest and just said screw it and signed up. In fact that's how i'm now a member of the companions, thieves guild, dark brotherhood and college of winterhold.

 

[Dango]

Empire, because the Stormcloacks are a bunch of racist asshats.

 

[Adam Foremanski]

Its nice to see someone bring the level of discussion back to sensibility.

Hitler and nazis indeed :L.

 

[Kimarous]

Dude, there's a big difference between signing a "concordat" for peace and letting go of the god you hold most sacred while allowing a secret police into your borders to do whatever evil shit they want. The empire should have resisted to the fucking end, it's what Talos would've done, and this proud Nord will follow his example, even to his death.

To what end? Annihilation? A whole nation gone General Custer because they're being stubborn? Idiocy. The Empire knows that it can pick and choose its battles; in fact, if Ulfric hadn't kicked up a fuss in Markarth, all this could have been avoided. It wasn't until he explicitly demanded worship of Talos that everybody was going in private anyways that the Thalmor actually started to crack down.

On a side note, to everybody crying "The Empire is doing cultural genocide and therefore is bad!": who says Nordic culture is GOOD? Not all traditions are worth keeping around. Let me put this in perspective. Do you think it would be a good thing if Americans could "traditionally" waltz up to the President, declare they have beef with him, and challenge him to a duel to the death? Hell, how about a fistfight duel to the death that the attacker decided to bring a gun to? That's the equivalent of what Ulfric did, people... and you SUPPORT him for it?

I just want to say, the only reason the Stormcloaks seem run down is because they are putting everything in the war and plus are probably a lot older then the Empire cities. Plus the Empire isn't all that great either. They pay off people to support them and make a lot of dumb choices. Like if you go with Empire, the Empire replaces Jarl of Riften with a member of Black-Briars. So that's even worst then just being a puppet.

And the Stormcloaks would put a Silver-Blood in charge of Markarth. Your point? Are you implying that the Silver-Bloods are better than the Black-Briars? With either side, you might argue "that's a bad idea, because they are rewarding criminals" or you might think "it's the most logical choice, putting the person actually running things in official power." I personally think it would be better for a government employing a crime lord than for a crime lord to puppeteer a government official.

 

[Outcast107]

snip

First thing, who the hell gives the Empire right to get rid of a culture that they don't agree with? How would you feel if the government you swore to fight for, just decide "Oh hey, lets get rid of something that TONS of people in our lands like."

And yes, a lot of people still support Ulfric cause its fucking tradition in the Nords culture. I mean hell go talk to the guy he fought and killed in the Sovengard(Sp?). He admits it was a fair fight.

Also, the Empire isn't all "great" either. They are draining Skyrim of its resources dry just so it can stand a fight against the Thalmor which they will most likely lose. Since I highly doubt they can fight when they lost nearly most of their army, allies and their own special agents (The blades). Which all three were given up for the treaty which so many of you Empire supporters are saying "Buying their time".

Yeah, making yourself weaker is a sure fine way of getting strength. That and falling prey to the Thalmor plan of a civil war. Which the General even admits that he knew about their plan. So why not just pack up and leave and declare Skyrim independent like they did with Hammerfell? Make sure they don't lose troops in a war that could be easily avoided? If Skyrim THAT much of a difference to help out the Empire then I'm sorry, the Empire is already dead.

So buying their time actually hurt them big time. Plus HOW can you support the Empire when they will easily just hand you over to the enemy just because they say so? If the Thalmor wanted Skyrim instead of Hammerfell (Or both) then the Empire would easily just give them up. Cause the Empire is only looking out for number one.

True, the Stormcloaks are not much better, but at least they are not giving up their own people to please the elves. So yes, if you continue to support the Empire, just watch out for a back stab soon. Cause if they are losing, and giving you up can save them. You can bet your ass they will do it in a heartbeat.

Edit: Also one more thing. If the Empire don't like how you are ruling your town (or perhaps anything at all) They will make sure to buy you out and put someone they like put on the throne. So if you don't like how the Empire is runnings things, to bad. You get thrown out and someone who they know will be put on.

 

[Kimarous]

First thing, who the hell gives the Empire right to get rid of a culture that they don't agree with? How would you feel if the government you swore to fight for, just decide "Oh hey, lets get rid of something that TONS of people in our lands like."

And yes, a lot of people still support Ulfric cause its fucking tradition in the Nords culture. I mean hell go talk to the guy he fought and killed in the Sovengard(Sp?). He admits it was a fair fight.

I'm not arguing that the Empire has the right to play "culture police". I'm arguing that the traditions they are protecting are STUPID. Is that how you think a government should be run? Is that WORTH protecting?

Also, the Empire isn't all "great" either. They are draining Skyrim of its resources dry just so it can stand a fight against the Thalmor which they will most likely lose. Since I highly doubt they can fight when they lost nearly most of their army, allies and their own special agents (The blades). Which all three were given up for the treaty which so many of you Empire supporters are saying "Buying their time".

Yeah, making yourself weaker is a sure fine way of getting strength. That and falling prey to the Thalmor plan of a civil war. Which the General even admits that he knew about their plan. So why not just pack up and leave and declare Skyrim independent like they did with Hammerfell? Make sure they don't lose troops in a war that could be easily avoided? If Skyrim THAT much of a difference to help out the Empire then I'm sorry, the Empire is already dead.

So buying their time actually hurt them big time. Plus HOW can you support the Empire when they will easily just hand you over to the enemy just because they say so? If the Thalmor wanted Skyrim instead of Hammerfell (Or both) then the Empire would easily just give them up. Cause the Empire is only looking out for number one.

The Empire didn't boot out Hammerfell; Hammerfell didn't want to give up an inch of territory, so they unanimously broke off on their own accord. With the state that the Empire was in, they couldn't exactly rope the region back in; besides, Hammerfell had to continue a costly war to finally recover said lands. Hammerfell as a whole didn't want to be part of the Empire anymore, yet half of Skyrim is still pro-Imperial. Are you seriously saying the Empire would be better off dumping a glass half full?

Sure, they lost the Blades and got a new protective order instead. That's hardly a loss, especially looking at how the Blades in Skyrim behave.

And AGAIN, the Imperials wouldn't HAVE to placate the Thalmor beyond the original treaty if ULFRIC DIDN'T THROW A TANTRUM!

True, the Stormcloaks are not much better, but at least they are not giving up their own people to please the elves. So yes, if you continue to support the Empire, just watch out for a back stab soon. Cause if they are losing, and giving you up can save them. You can bet your ass they will do it in a heartbeat.

Nope, they just do the inverse: "Skyrim for the Nords" and fuck everyone else. Truly a cause to fight for!

Edit: Also one more thing. If the Empire don't like how you are ruling your town (or perhaps anything at all) They will make sure to buy you out and put someone they like put on the throne. So if you don't like how the Empire is runnings things, to bad. You get thrown out and someone who they know will be put on.

In contrast to the Stormcloaks who will outright murder you instead. Great tradeoff.

 

[Outcast107]

snip

It shouldn't matter if YOU think it is stupid. Its THEIR tradition. If any government would do this then the world would be a fuck up place. "I don't agree with your traditions at all so were going to get rid of it."

Yes, the Empire DID boot the Hammerfell out. Do you expect Hammerfell the ones who got the SHIT end of the deal to just go quietly? They are just much as a warrior race as the Nords. They got a shitty deal and they weren't going to take it. So when they start to rebel the empire said "Hammerfell isn't part of the Empire any more!"

Also do you really think the Thalmor didn't already know about the secret Talos worshipers? They are not that stupid. They were only waiting for a chance to start shit. IT would have happen sooner or later.

Also the whole "Skyrim for the Nords" thing, what do you expect? I only seem mostly Nords in the area anyways. It is Nord lands. I don't get the whole "EVERYONE IN STORMCLOAK IS RACIST!" when all we seen is two drunks pick on a dark elf. Truly lets stereotype the whole group!

Also when has the Stormcloaks kill anyone they didn't like? hmm? Please show me. They let Argoians and Dark Elves live in (Or around) the city. The only reason they live in crappy place (imo) is because the place seem overrun as is already. The Dark elves are refugees, which I never heard of any refugee getting good treatment anywhere in the real world. So at least THEY are allow to live in the city. Plus go talk to a high elf in the market district at Windhelm. She doing pretty damn good for herself for being a elf.

For Argoians, I think they hardly trust them with how Black Marsh is acting towards Morrowind, the same with The elves and the Thalmor. They don't HATE due to stupid views, they distrust other racist with everything is turning out. It is still not right, but hey at least they aren't rounding people up like the Empire/Thalmor are to be torture and killed.