'Slut' Parade

[cobra_ky]

People can dress however they damn well please, freedom of expression and all that.

No one is even questioning that. This is about what should happen when people respond violently to freedom of expression. Lots of people do, especially in lower socioeconomic areas.

Looking at the thread, there are two arguments here.

Idealist: "I know rape is happening but we have to keep expressing the importance of acceptance and freedom of expression. It doesn't matter if girls are targeted whilst wearing certain types of clothing, they have a right to wear it and we should solely concentrate on the rapist, not the victim."

Realist: "Rape happens. It is always going to happen and it always will happen so the best plan is to educate people on how best to avoid it. If that means urging girls to wear less revealing clothing in dangerous areas, then so be it. People's perception of other people counts for a lot. Like it or not, it's the world we live in."

here's the argument you missed: "Revealing clothing is not a significant factor in the vast majority of rape cases. Focusing on women's clothing diverts attention away from the real causes of rape, which include things like poor decisions made under the influence of alcohol, and the misguided, obsolete view society has of female sexuality."

 

[powell86]

Looking at the thread, there are two arguments here.

Idealist: "I know rape is happening but we have to keep expressing the importance of acceptance and freedom of expression. It doesn't matter if girls are targeted whilst wearing certain types of clothing, they have a right to wear it and we should solely concentrate on the rapist, not the victim."

Realist: "Rape happens. It is always going to happen and it always will happen so the best plan is to educate people on how best to avoid it. If that means urging girls to wear less revealing clothing in dangerous areas, then so be it. People's perception of other people counts for a lot. Like it or not, it's the world we live in."

Who let the voice of reason to enter here??? OMGWTFBBQ!

Cookie for you sir.

On topic: I think I am more of a realist person. But to be frank, I think most of the idealistic people are aware of the realist stand. I think the best course of action is actually doing both. Is like we should be aware of reality, but fight towards the idealistic cause.

 

[Dags90]

here's the argument you missed: "Revealing clothing is not a significant factor in the vast majority of rape cases. Focusing on women's clothing diverts attention away from the real causes of rape, which include things like poor decisions made under the influence of alcohol, and the misguided, obsolete view society has of female sexuality."

Indeed, reinstating Prohibition would do more to dissuade rape (and violent crime in general) than caring about women's clothing. Which is really my main point. If you really care about rape so much as to care what women are wearing, you should have many other bigger priorities.

 

[powell86]

here's the argument you missed: "Revealing clothing is not a significant factor in the vast majority of rape cases. Focusing on women's clothing diverts attention away from the real causes of rape, which include things like poor decisions made under the influence of alcohol, and the misguided, obsolete view society has of female sexuality."

Hmmm that is certainly true.

May I pose another hypothesis? Perhaps women who tend to dress like a "slut" with a "I can do whatever I like" attitude tend to make bad decisions? E.g. drugs, go to shady areas to make out, accepting drinks from strangers etc.

However, I'm not condoning rape and neither am I saying that the "slut" deserves it. Rather, perhaps like what cobra_ky has mentioned, clothes shouldn't even be part of the equation at all.
In fact, people in Muslim countries are getting raped and they cover every part of their bodies.

 

[Trolldor]

Looking at the thread, there are two arguments here.

Idealist: "I know rape is happening but we have to keep expressing the importance of acceptance and freedom of expression. It doesn't matter if girls are targeted whilst wearing certain types of clothing, they have a right to wear it and we should solely concentrate on the rapist, not the victim."

Realist: "Rape happens. It is always going to happen and it always will happen so the best plan is to educate people on how best to avoid it. If that means urging girls to wear less revealing clothing in dangerous areas, then so be it. People's perception of other people counts for a lot. Like it or not, it's the world we live in."

Who let the voice of reason to enter here??? OMGWTFBBQ!

Cookie for you sir.

On topic: I think I am more of a realist person. But to be frank, I think most of the idealistic people are aware of the realist stand. I think the best course of action is actually doing both. Is like we should be aware of reality, but fight towards the idealistic cause.

You're a realist huh?
Then you acknowledge that the way a woman dresses is not a factor in rape cases?

 

[Jumplion]

People can dress however they damn well please, freedom of expression and all that.

No one is even questioning that. This is about what should happen when people respond violently to freedom of expression. Lots of people do, especially in lower socioeconomic areas.

Looking at the thread, there are two arguments here.

Idealist: "I know rape is happening but we have to keep expressing the importance of acceptance and freedom of expression. It doesn't matter if girls are targeted whilst wearing certain types of clothing, they have a right to wear it and we should solely concentrate on the rapist, not the victim."

Realist: "Rape happens. It is always going to happen and it always will happen so the best plan is to educate people on how best to avoid it. If that means urging girls to wear less revealing clothing in dangerous areas, then so be it. People's perception of other people counts for a lot. Like it or not, it's the world we live in."

See, there's a difference between saying "We should educate people, which could mean urging them to wear more decent clothing" and "You wouldn't have gotten raped if you didn't dress like a slut," which is what the police officer who started all of this said.

I'm all for promoting education on rape and methods of preventing and/or dealing with it. A factor can be to wear less revealing clothing, though as brought up multiple times that is not a primary factor in rape. However, you should never say "If you weren't wearing slutty clothing you wouldn't have been raped" because that is not educating, that is demeaning, disgusting, and blaming the victim.

If women want to wear more provocative clothing, so be it. It's their choice in what to wear. But even if they do wear revealing clothing and get raped, that doesn't call for calling them "sluts" or "whores" because they were unfortunate enough to get in that situation. Educate people, don't demean them.

 

[cobra_ky]

Indeed, reinstating Prohibition would do more to dissuade rape (and violent crime in general) than caring about women's clothing. Which is really my main point. If you really care about rape so much as to care what women are wearing, you should have many other bigger priorities.

Actually i seem to recall Prohibition encouraging a great deal of (organized) violent crime. But generally speaking i think you are correct.

 

[zeldagirl]

I think something that really needs to happen is the re-education of society on how to prevent rape. We view rape reactively - we need to view it preventatively...but not from the victim's standpoint.


In this thread, I've seen that women should not walk alone at night, not drink, and not dress a certain way. Women are usually the victims of rape.


What we as a society needs to do is re-educate. The victims SHOULD NOT have to put the onus of rape prevention on themselves. We must put it on potential rapists.


A new script should be: MEN! Don't drink, because studies have shown that you are more likely to inadvertently rape someone under the influence of alcohol (or drugs). MEN! You should wear clothing that makes it difficult for you to whip out your penis whenever you feel like sticking it in some place it doesn't belong! MEN! You are more likely to be the victim of a violent crime - YOU should be the ones not walking alone at night, because you are putting yourselves in danger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States).




Imagine if that was how we taught rape prevention instead. Instead of putting all the responsibility on the victims to not be raped, if we just taught our society to take consent more seriously, moderate alcohol use, and become safer ALL AROUND.

 

[Dags90]

Actually i seem to recall Prohibition encouraging a great deal of (organized) violent crime. But generally speaking i think you are correct.

Organized crime doesn't get reported as much though, solving the problem forever.

 

[Burck]

Looking at the thread, there are two arguments here.

*Snip*

Who let the voice of reason to enter here??? OMGWTFBBQ!

Cookie for you sir.

On topic: I think I am more of a realist person. But to be frank, I think most of the idealistic people are aware of the realist stand. I think the best course of action is actually doing both. Is like we should be aware of reality, but fight towards the idealistic cause.

I see what you mean there, but want to add something that you either omitted, forgot, or simply didn't know of.

On the idealist side, there is also the argument that embracing such a "realistic" ideology can validate "blaming the victim". (Ask if you'd like an explanation.)

Of course, you seem to be suggesting more of a middle ground. But we need to be cautious as to find a healthy middle ground.

The problem I have with realists here(putting idealism aside for a moment), is that people have such different opinions of what clothes are "slutty", "asking for trouble" and so on.

I think the ambiguity I've pointed out here is really problematic. Because there is no way (and I would even say it's impossible) for the public to agree (via science) on what is too slutty, rather than there being any logical argument, people give the quasi-logical argument that "slutty" dressing makes rape more likely with only common sense as their justification.

Common sense is NOT a valid argument for such an important social issue. (Don't take this personally, just saying for clarification.)

I'm gonna stop writing for now, can't concentrate.

To whom it may concern, I'm totally on the "idealist" side of this argument, I just wanted to explore the "realist" side in this post.

 

[SillyBear]

People can dress however they damn well please, freedom of expression and all that.

No one is even questioning that. This is about what should happen when people respond violently to freedom of expression. Lots of people do, especially in lower socioeconomic areas.

Looking at the thread, there are two arguments here.

Idealist: "I know rape is happening but we have to keep expressing the importance of acceptance and freedom of expression. It doesn't matter if girls are targeted whilst wearing certain types of clothing, they have a right to wear it and we should solely concentrate on the rapist, not the victim."

Realist: "Rape happens. It is always going to happen and it always will happen so the best plan is to educate people on how best to avoid it. If that means urging girls to wear less revealing clothing in dangerous areas, then so be it. People's perception of other people counts for a lot. Like it or not, it's the world we live in."

here's the argument you missed: "Revealing clothing is not a significant factor in the vast majority of rape cases."

According to this police officer, you're wrong. Police officers should have the right to investigate and educate the public on how best to avoid rapes. It doesn't matter if we agree with them or not we grant them power to do this. I don't think the issue is simply about clothing though, and I never said it was. Most of it comes down to the actual girl herself, and whether or not she has common sense, but that all rolls into one. Common sense is the best defense against most rapes, and dressing with your ass showing in a dangerous area is not showing much common sense. Like I said above, the idealists will say "who cares they have a right to" and the realists will say "this will cause them to attract unneeded attention".

Either way, you are looking at the issue too simply. This debate transcends the clothing issue and comments on what I was talking about above.

 

[SillyBear]

I think the ambiguity I've pointed out here is really problematic. Because there is no way (and I would even say it's impossible) for the public to agree (via science) on what is too slutty

There doesn't have to be a definite line. This isn't a law remember, it's just something to tell girls before they go out to dangerous areas. They can take it or leave it and use their own discretion. If they believe they have a right to dress like that, they are 100% correct and they can dress like that. If they are raped, the rapist will still be persecuted and punished within the law as usual. But we all know what revealing clothing is - and whilst there are slight variations in definition from person to person - we all understand the general concept. Surely.

Like I have made clear earlier, I'm on the realist side of the fence here. My goal is to promote common sense. I think advocating freedom of expression is all well and good, but nothing changes the fact that the way you present yourself does influence how people perceive you. Advocating freedom of expression also doesn't change the fact that these rapists don't really give a shit.

I completely agree with the motive behind the idealism, and I do agree that everyone has the right to dress how they want - I still think going out to a dangerous area with not enough friends and dressing to attract attention is stupid. It's the equivalent to me walking down Manchester at 2am dressed in gold jewelry. Yes, I have a right to. And yes, if I was to be attacked, it is the attacker's fault, but I am still acting like an idiot and am being completely naive.

I believe we need to be able to tell people this without being accused of being against freedom of expression or accused of being sexist or whatever.

People are cruel, and sometimes we have to compromise a little freedom of expression for our own safety and the safety of those around us. There is a time and a place for everything. Anyone who has ever been to a shifty bar in a bad neighbourhood understands this. It would be lovely to take a stand and say "THIS IS WHO I AM!" but when that ends in a rape, or a bashing, I think it is best just to shut your mouth.

You're a realist huh?
Then you acknowledge that the way a woman dresses is not a factor in rape cases?

This is absolute nonsense. The way you carry yourself and present yourself has huge ramifications to everyone around you. It's simply psychology - whether you like it or not. No, I don't believe clothing is really the issue at hand here - I think it is more to do with a lack of common sense, but to suggest that the way someone looks and presents themselves is irrelevant is completely absurd. It is relevant to absolutely everything we do.

 

[Astoria]

There's nothing wrong with being proud of being able to pick up easy but being proud of being a slut? That's just pathetic. I don't care if you're male or female, if you're a slut I have no respect for you because you clearly have no respect for yourself.

Why don't they have respect for themselves?
At what point is "really enjoying sex" disrespectful to yourself?

There is a difference between enjoying sex and throwing yourself on everyone and anyone. Being a slut doesn't just mean you have sex a lot, it's also about the attitude and image you protray.

No, it's the attitude and image other people portray of you.

That's the whole point of the protests, to tell people to fuck off with their labels and preconceptions.

That doesn't make sense to my sleep deprived brain. And labelling people is just part of human nature. People don't call a girl a slut just because she's wearing revealing clothes or just because she is exceptionally flirty. They call a girl a slut because she does both of these things and more. The word slut gets thrown around a lot so some people don't really understand what a slut really is anymore.

And why should we then accept them?

A girl is free to sleep and flirt with as many other people, gender irrelevant, as she wishes. It is her life and her choice to make, and so long as harm is being done we have no cause to judge and make fact these absurd notions of propriety.

Hey I'm not saying I'd make fun of a girl that I thought was a slut, just that I wouldn't have any respect for them. Of course it's their life so they can do what they like but they just have to know that that's how society sees them. Everyone knows that you get judged so they have to be prepared to deal with it just like everyone else does. They aren't the only ones being judged for being who they are.

Then you won't object when I judge you, and gossip behind your back and create labels for you. That I invent or appropriate terms as slurs because I disagree with your behaviour.
As everybody knows that's normal and healthy and reasonable to do, there is nothing at all objectionable about it.
Like the word ******. Can't object to its use. Got no respect for them homosexuals.

No I won't object because I'm used to it. I went through all of high school with the label emo. I ignored it because I knew who I was and didn't care what others thought of me. If you don't want to be labeled you know what the solution is? Stop caring because then it doesn't matter what they say. People always have and always will label each other so either don't allow people to label you as something you don't like or don't care. If these girls don't want to be called sluts either they should stop acting like them or stop caring that people are doing so because people won't stop.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

That's all fine and dandy about the clothing, but like you said in your TLR; Rapists will take anything as provocation, and there isn't any proven link to apparel choice and rapes

That's exactly why I said what I said my TLR. Some rapists will see clothing as a set off, some rapists will see hair as a set off, some rapists will go for height, age, race, and hell, even if the woman reminds the rapist of his mother.

More over, you're going to ask a diseased mind to accurately say why he committed such a crime for statistical reasons? You'll never get anything really resembling usable data. Hell, some rapists are so far gone they don't even think they committed rape. They believe the woman wanted it. There will be no proven links to anything because you can't for reasons when it comes to diseased thinking.

Wear what you want to wear. Protect yourselves at all times. Be ready to deal with things you never intended.

 

[Trolldor]

There's nothing wrong with being proud of being able to pick up easy but being proud of being a slut? That's just pathetic. I don't care if you're male or female, if you're a slut I have no respect for you because you clearly have no respect for yourself.

Why don't they have respect for themselves?
At what point is "really enjoying sex" disrespectful to yourself?

There is a difference between enjoying sex and throwing yourself on everyone and anyone. Being a slut doesn't just mean you have sex a lot, it's also about the attitude and image you protray.

No, it's the attitude and image other people portray of you.

That's the whole point of the protests, to tell people to fuck off with their labels and preconceptions.

That doesn't make sense to my sleep deprived brain. And labelling people is just part of human nature. People don't call a girl a slut just because she's wearing revealing clothes or just because she is exceptionally flirty. They call a girl a slut because she does both of these things and more. The word slut gets thrown around a lot so some people don't really understand what a slut really is anymore.

And why should we then accept them?

A girl is free to sleep and flirt with as many other people, gender irrelevant, as she wishes. It is her life and her choice to make, and so long as harm is being done we have no cause to judge and make fact these absurd notions of propriety.

Hey I'm not saying I'd make fun of a girl that I thought was a slut, just that I wouldn't have any respect for them. Of course it's their life so they can do what they like but they just have to know that that's how society sees them. Everyone knows that you get judged so they have to be prepared to deal with it just like everyone else does. They aren't the only ones being judged for being who they are.

Then you won't object when I judge you, and gossip behind your back and create labels for you. That I invent or appropriate terms as slurs because I disagree with your behaviour.
As everybody knows that's normal and healthy and reasonable to do, there is nothing at all objectionable about it.
Like the word ******. Can't object to its use. Got no respect for them homosexuals.

No I won't object because I'm used to it. I went through all of high school with the label emo. I ignored it because I knew who I was and didn't care what others thought of me. If you don't want to be labeled you know what the solution is? Stop caring because then it doesn't matter what they say. People always have and always will label each other so either don't allow people to label you as something you don't like or don't care. If these girls don't want to be called sluts either they should stop acting like them or stop caring that people are doing so because people won't stop.

Stop acting like them? Why?
Why should the only possible way to avoid some pathetic, narrow-minded conservative notions of propriety be to submit to somebody else's bigoted ideals of 'socially acceptable behaviour'?


Oh, and 'emo' is not a label. Try suffering real discrimination some time. I remember the days of racial beatings. Good times they were, went home with many a bruises.

*snipped nonsense*

Haven't read any of the links then have you? You know, like that one academic study linked to in this thread which did not have a woman's appearance as a factor in rape cases.
If you knew anything about psychology you'd know that how a woman dresses does not create a rapist, that a rapist is already predisposed to that behaviour and at the time of rape is already of a mindset that his actions are justified. The unfounded accusation that a woman is responsible for her rape is just plain ignorance, and in light of your ignoring the linked to articles, completely wilful.

 

[SillyBear]

Haven't read any of the links then have you? You know, like that one academic study linked to in this thread which did not have a woman's appearance as a factor in rape cases.
If you knew anything about psychology you'd know that how a woman dresses does not create a rapist, that a rapist is already predisposed to that behaviour and at the time of rape is already of a mindset that his actions are justified. The unfounded accusation that a woman is responsible for her rape is just plain ignorance, and in light of your ignoring the linked to articles, completely wilful.

So you don't believe that a rape has ever started off by a man seeing a girl and judging her by her appearance and then following her?

Never?

Really?

I said earlier I don't view clothing to be the real cause of things, but I see you ignored that. Willfully! I was only making the statement that the way someone looks can and does start awful actions. Have you ever been to a pub? I've seen many people punched because they were wearing glasses.

I also did not claim that rapists were created by seeing girls in skimpy clothing, so I have no idea where you pulled that from. The way you look can and does effect how people react to you. It's a fact. That's all I was saying, you aggressive little fellow.

 

[joshthor]

eh. i call my girl-friends slut all the time. IM HELPING BRING BACK THE WORD!!!!

 

[Leadfinger]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13333013

So these women are proud of being sluts, think that there is nothing wrong with acting in that way, and rather then listening to advice on how to avoid rape, they want to protest?

Does anyone else find this type of behavior ridiculous and shows how warped/hedonistic parts of Western society is becoming?

Does the open expression of women's sexuality make you feel uncomfortable?

 

[Astoria]

There's nothing wrong with being proud of being able to pick up easy but being proud of being a slut? That's just pathetic. I don't care if you're male or female, if you're a slut I have no respect for you because you clearly have no respect for yourself.

Why don't they have respect for themselves?
At what point is "really enjoying sex" disrespectful to yourself?

There is a difference between enjoying sex and throwing yourself on everyone and anyone. Being a slut doesn't just mean you have sex a lot, it's also about the attitude and image you protray.

No, it's the attitude and image other people portray of you.

That's the whole point of the protests, to tell people to fuck off with their labels and preconceptions.

That doesn't make sense to my sleep deprived brain. And labelling people is just part of human nature. People don't call a girl a slut just because she's wearing revealing clothes or just because she is exceptionally flirty. They call a girl a slut because she does both of these things and more. The word slut gets thrown around a lot so some people don't really understand what a slut really is anymore.

And why should we then accept them?

A girl is free to sleep and flirt with as many other people, gender irrelevant, as she wishes. It is her life and her choice to make, and so long as harm is being done we have no cause to judge and make fact these absurd notions of propriety.

Hey I'm not saying I'd make fun of a girl that I thought was a slut, just that I wouldn't have any respect for them. Of course it's their life so they can do what they like but they just have to know that that's how society sees them. Everyone knows that you get judged so they have to be prepared to deal with it just like everyone else does. They aren't the only ones being judged for being who they are.

Then you won't object when I judge you, and gossip behind your back and create labels for you. That I invent or appropriate terms as slurs because I disagree with your behaviour.
As everybody knows that's normal and healthy and reasonable to do, there is nothing at all objectionable about it.
Like the word ******. Can't object to its use. Got no respect for them homosexuals.

No I won't object because I'm used to it. I went through all of high school with the label emo. I ignored it because I knew who I was and didn't care what others thought of me. If you don't want to be labeled you know what the solution is? Stop caring because then it doesn't matter what they say. People always have and always will label each other so either don't allow people to label you as something you don't like or don't care. If these girls don't want to be called sluts either they should stop acting like them or stop caring that people are doing so because people won't stop.

Stop acting like them? Why?
Why should the only possible way to avoid some pathetic, narrow-minded conservative notions of propriety be to submit to somebody else's bigoted ideals of 'socially acceptable behaviour'?


Oh, and 'emo' is not a label. Try suffering real discrimination some time. I remember the days of racial beatings. Good times they were, went home with many a bruises.

Oh I'm sorry are you saying that because I wasn't beaten that I have no right to complain? Ever heard on mental abuse? I had absolute strangers, people I had have never seen in my life, come up to my face and call me a pathetic emo loser and people walked around me rather than past me like I had a disease. I heard multiple rumours about me and none were pretty. I was an outsider the whole time and you have no idea what that did to my self esteem. Emo may not be a label in your eyes but that doesn't mean I didn't go through a rough time. And maybe you completely missed the point where I said OR THEY COULD STOP CARING WHAT OTHERS THINK.

 

[UFOROMANTIC]

Haven't read any of the links then have you? You know, like that one academic study linked to in this thread which did not have a woman's appearance as a factor in rape cases.
If you knew anything about psychology you'd know that how a woman dresses does not create a rapist, that a rapist is already predisposed to that behaviour and at the time of rape is already of a mindset that his actions are justified. The unfounded accusation that a woman is responsible for her rape is just plain ignorance, and in light of your ignoring the linked to articles, completely wilful.

So you don't believe that a rape has ever started off by a man seeing a girl and judging her by her appearance and then following her?

Never?

Really?

I said earlier I don't view clothing to be the real cause of things, but I see you ignored that. Willfully! I was only making the statement that the way someone looks can and does start awful actions. Have you ever been to a pub? I've seen many people punched because they were wearing glasses.

I also did not claim that rapists were created by seeing girls in skimpy clothing, so I have no idea where you pulled that from. The way you look can and does effect how people react to you. It's a fact. That's all I was saying, you aggressive little fellow.

VICTIM...BLAMING...
What you are doing, still, intentional or not, is victim blaming. "I'm not saying that rape is caused by immodest clothing...but it is" is how this is coming out. It's self-contradictory, as well. Punching someone is also not at all the same thing as raping them.