Smaller Devs Abused By Steam's "No Questions Asked" Refund Policy

[The Bucket]

Players love it, and the primary complaints against it are from developers that have created games with no lasting value.

Indeed, the players do love it, but this policy is still turning out to be a bad one for - as the article is about - smaller companies. Not everyone has a massive budget and some have to start out with smaller games. Qwiboo wasn't trying to rip anyone off with their game. $2 for an hour or so of gameplay is a fair price...it's not like they were just raking in the cash even before the refund policy, but now they're making next to nothing.

I'd say they could solve this by putting a minimum payment requirement for the refund...like no refunds for games under $5. But that would just encourage devs to jack their prices to be above that mark.

The point is that a balance must be met. Yeah, we hate it when a policy like Paid Mods comes around and completely screws over us, the consumer. But there is another side to that coin, and this policy is detrimental to the smaller devs that are trying to make (in this case literally) a couple bucks for a small game.

The sub 5 dollar games are some of the ones most in need of a returns policy, so much shovelware has been stuffed onto Steam in the last year that prices itself cheap to grab sales. The only way to change this would be for Steam to revert to how they used to add games, but I doubt these small indie devs would be in favour of that.

Plenty of other digital retailers have looser returns policies, pretty much every industry have to put up with returns.

 

[loa]

The hell is this garbage?
You equate this to paid mods because some shitty IOS port gets refunded a lot and someone whines that they need to "reintroduce DRM" because people can't pirate that stuff anyway if they wanted to [https://www.gog.com/support/website_help/money_back_guarantee]?
The fuck does this even have to do with steam, who cares if a game that is tethered to steam anyway has (additional?)
DRM? Steam IS DRM.
You can't "refund and then keep playing" unless you do stuff that would enable you to keep playing regardless of DRM.
And how nonsensical is it anyway to boast to never use DRM and then have your games on steam only?

So devs now need to make worthwhile games and if it's less than 2 hours long, it better have replay value?
Games need to be, like, good now or people return them a lot?
Boo fucking hoo, cry me a river.

 

[klaynexas3]

Saying that the refund rate is higher than before isn't much of, well, anything. No one is about to jump through the hoops required to get a refund on steam to get a refund for a two dollar game, however, if it's literally a click of a button and someone has no desire to keep playing a game, then them wanting a refund isn't a problem. The problem is the developers making a game that was so uninteresting that it wasn't even worth two dollars. You wasted your time buddy, and so the refund system means that you at least won't waste anymore than two hours of mine.

 

[teqrevisited]

It's something that I imagine will get ironed out going forward. Consistent use of the refund service will probably send up a flag in their system marking the user for review and possibly having their ability to freely submit refund requests via this system revoked.

Also, whilst I'm not personally a fan of short games, I don't think the effort that has been put into an experience even of that length should be ignored if it's priced appropriately. I have to wonder if this will discourage developers from releasing short games on Steam, or worse: putting arbitrary treadmill progression systems in.

 

[SecondPrize]

Actually, the key factor in Qwiboo's story is the game JUST finished a 50% off sale right where the graph flatlines. Step it up.

 

[viranimus]

"Bloody hell steam refund rate has gone from 0.09% to 17%. Methinks people are taking the piss. Here comes DRM again sadly..." Harris lamented.

OK I do not get this at all. So... a company is going to implement DRM because they HAD been supporting DRM free, but because a DRM client decides to cut into their profit they are going to abandon DRM free?

I think my brain just broke.

 

[Xan Krieger]

well as Jimmy said in his latest Jimquisition it's way to early to cry foul about this yet. We need to wait a bit until things even out a bit. Also no offense to the devs but it may be that your game just isn't good, and the old policy made it pretty much impossible to refund games unless they straight did not work for you, and even then steam would be suspicious of it. Also the system has real people monitoring it, so it's not like it's an automated system that can be abused like the Youtube copyright system. I follow a few indie devs and they have said that their was an initial spike in returns but it has leveled off quickly

here is a link to the Jimquisition for those interested,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1-0dgDsCtw&feature=youtu.be

may be turning into another "Valve is completely out-of-touch with its fans and its partners" PR fiasco.

Are you serious? I mean really, pretty much every other online retailer (like GoG for example) has a return policy, many more lenient than Valves. The fact that Valve hasn't had one till now is ludicrous in it self. I mean imagine if Steam had had this from it's inception and now had taken it away, THAT would be a PR fiasco.

And anyway "PR fiasco's" only happen when the public is mad, not developers. PR being PUBLIC relations, and game buyers outnumber game makers my a large number. So unless this angers a large number of game PLAYERS than valve wont be feeling any heat from it.

I was just about to post the Jimquisition when I saw this as he was completely right. It really is too early to know how badly it's going to be abused (sure some abuse is to be expected, such is the problem with every system ever). Give it a few months, it was just implemented so of course there's a surge of people doing it. Like anything else it'll balance out in time.

 

[shial]

How many of the returns are people gaming the system and how much of it is people actively returning something that just wasn't worth even a couple of bucks?

Sure devs are going to complain but how legit is their complaints? I've seen a LOT of absolute crap show up for sale just to milk people (War Z or Assassins Creed Unity anybody?) and my level of sympathy for most of the devs is close to zero. too many false promises, vaporware, misleading statements and games that are absolute garbage or so completely derivative that I may as well play the game they are copying for a better experience.

Steam refunds means game devs better have their stuff in order and of a better quality.

 

[Zontar]

Oh no, now indie devs will have to actually make a game worth buying instead of pushing shovel-ware that only continues to exist because with the old policy people who got burned couldn't do jack about the fact they've been sold something not worth the space it takes on their hard-drive.

This is an all around win of a policy. Valve gets a PR boost which has made us forget about paid mods for the most part, consumers get a damn return policy we've waited years for, and for legitimate developers and publishers nothing really changes, though it may turn out better for then as people who otherwise wouldn't buy their games may do so on a "trying it out" basis and figuring that it's worth it, increasing their sales (though in all likelihood by only a marginal amount).

The only ones who loose out are developers who public garbage, unfinished games that are broken beyond belief or are too short to justify their price tag. I've seen games that are free (and I mean legitimately free, not Free 2 Play) that take longer to finish then 2 hours. If someone can play your game to completion with enough time to get their money back, that's your problem, and no one else's.

 

[Colt47]

Finally, a way to screw those guys flipping assets into hellish concoctions and selling them on steam to make a quick buck. If it cuts down on shovelware popping up on steam shelves I'm glad they did the easy refund policy.

 

[Mike Richards]

Do we really have to jump automatically from "New policy has kinks that need working out just like ALL newly implemented policies do" to "Is Valve completely out of touch?"

Yeah, it might need fine tuning. I'd be surprised if it didn't. Why is anyone else?

If a game can be finished in under 2 hours and doesn't have enough replayability or post-game content to make people want to keep playing, it's not worth even a single dollar. If people can now get refunds for these games, then I see it as the system working.

heres the sure-fire way to solve this problem:

Stop making shitty Indie games.

WOW.Mp4

If you game is under 2 hours long that shit had better be free because if you are going to put in the minimal amount of work into your game, then I'm going to pay the minimal price I feel your game is worth (namely, jack shit). Also I'm gonna love how those Indies are gonna put in DRM in their games, because DRM is completely flawless and it isn't like there are groups of people out there than can crack your DRM within a few days of your game being released.

On that note also, people have already said how much easier it is to outright pirate games instead of going through the refund process, if they have seen a massive uptick in refunds, then they probably have a 90-99% piracy rate for their games.

Possibly out of pitty for how bad their games are to begin with.

And do we really have to go through the "length is not a sure indicator of quality" speech again? I'm not saying it shouldn't factor into cost at all, and for less then two hours you'd really have to have one hell of a fried gold masterpiece to charge anything more then probably $5 at the very most. But are we really going with a game under two hours automatically has minimal work put into it?

A couple years back I picked up this tiny experimental thing called Dinner Date. You play as a man's subconscious as he slowly realizes he's been stood up for a date, through an array of little internal monologues and small actions. It was a fun little idea and I liked the execution well enough, and while it wouldn't make any personal top 10 lists I was happy to give it the two or three bucks or whatever I paid for it at the time. It only lasted about half an hour, and almost certainly would have started to overstay it's welcome if it had lasted any longer.

I hate to resort to such a tired cliche in it's defense, but what exactly is two or three dollars worth? A soda? A couple of minutes with a candy bar? Not a little glimpse into some small story or odd little mechanic or whatever? We're willing to pay almost ten dollars, sometimes more depending on the showing, to go see a movie for two hours, but a game tries to tell itself with the same pacing and suddenly it's automatically only putting the bare minimum of work in?

Now this doesn't mean that it can't also be a bad game. Bad games happen. A lot of people didn't like Dinner Date and I can certainly understand some, though not all, of the complaints. At the least it's not for everyone. But more often then not games are bad because of how they /use/ their length, not what they're length is. Games aren't shit because of what they are, they're shit because of /how/ they are what they are. That's what execution means.

For games under two hours that actually are by whatever measure 'good', I can see this being a real concern. I don't know that I have a good solution that doesn't also present it's own logistical problems. But it's definitely worth investigating, because why wouldn't it be?

 

[Zontar]

Steam refunds means game devs better have their stuff in order and of a better quality.

You know what? I think that's what this is, quality control. Think about it, for the past 4 years or so Valve has had an issue with quality control. Before 2010-2011ish they had an issue of not enough third party games being sent onto the platform due to their at the time strickt rules of quality for what could be sold (this is relatively speaking, of course, there where still bad games, but compared to other outlets it was a pretty safe bet for decent games). Then, since everyone complained about the lack of content, they opened the floodgates and now for the past few years we have had quality control issues. This could be an attempt to have the market fix that. It allows Valve to continue to have a massive library, while also allowing the consumers to not have the issue of being burned by the crap that keeps getting past the radar.

 

[Worgen]

"Bloody hell steam refund rate has gone from 0.09% to 17%. Methinks people are taking the piss. Here comes DRM again sadly..." Harris lamented.

OK I do not get this at all. So... a company is going to implement DRM because they HAD been supporting DRM free, but because a DRM client decides to cut into their profit they are going to abandon DRM free?

I think my brain just broke.

They released the game on steam without it being integrated into steams DRM. In other words because of this when someone got a refund for their game that person could just keep the game on their computer and continue to play it. The dev had no way of knowing if the person who had gotten the refund had actually removed the game.

 

[Metalrocks]

if the game is bad, i see no reason to keep it either. regardless if its 1 hour long or 20 hours. this is a good move from valve and indie developers should be more careful what they make. when games like slaughtering grounds get very bad reviews and other titles jim once touched up on, i sure as hell would like to get my money back too.
i have a bunch of games, indie and AAA, i wish i could get a refund. games i would never play again since they are bad or simply not fun at all or have some annoying issues like bad controls or port.

just yesterday i have purchased fahrenheit aka indigo prophecy when it was 50% off and in less than an hour of playing, i requested a refund. there was the option to explain as to why you want a refund, but you can simply choose the reasons as from technical issues, simply no fun and more. i chose "it is not what i expected", with no further explanation.
today i see that i got my full refund.
very happy with this since i dont see my self playing this game with its horrific controls.

 

[Ticklefist]

Maybe more people will consider putting their games on GOG and Humble now, sans Steam codes. I'd be happy about that.

 

[DrunkOnEstus]

If this is the "necessary evil" or whatever in order for the market to have a real way to institute quality control and quit the fucking Unity asset flippers and sellers of broken garbage, then I'm totally okay with that. I think a one hour experience can absolutely be worth money, and if I made one, I would be happy if 83% of the people who gave me money for it thought that it was worth the money they gave me. I don't doubt that for devs used to a less pro-consumer Steam, it was great to know that if someone gave you money then they had no recourse at all.

If 17% of the people who took the time to buy your product didn't feel that it was worth money, then next time blow them away within the first 2 hours. If the experience is less than 2 hours, make it an amazing 2 hours or price it accordingly, but DRM shouldn't be on the table here. DRM doesn't work for piracy (you know, the actual fucking thing that consumers do when they don't want to give you money), and I can't believe that devs are talking about DRM being instituted to help work around a Steam initiative that cuts through the mountain of garbage and gives consumers more peace of mind.

I really am sorry that some people are making less money than they did on the old Steam, but that's the old Steam, and this new Steam has way too many positives if this is the real negative side of it.

Side note: Length isn't an issue to me here. There's games that are like 100 hours that I wish I could refund after 11 fucking minutes like Two Worlds or something, and if Journey were on Steam I would buy the soundtrack or do something to give Thatgamecompany more money than I had given them after completing it.

 

[Metalrocks]

Side note: Length isn't an issue to me here. There's games that are like 100 hours that I wish I could refund after 11 fucking minutes like Two Worlds or something, and if Journey were on Steam I would buy the soundtrack or do something to give Thatgamecompany more money than I had given them after completing it.

same here. i have purchased so far every DLC (except the bonus content pack) for "the talos principles" and havent regretted a single cent. got them all at full price. why? because the main game works and its lots of fun. croteam is a indie developer (as many would know) and i gladly give them my money to show them that i like their stuff.
i sure as hell will not give a single cent to gearbox for the huge let down called duke forever. now thats a game i wish i can get a refund.

 

[viranimus]

"Bloody hell steam refund rate has gone from 0.09% to 17%. Methinks people are taking the piss. Here comes DRM again sadly..." Harris lamented.

OK I do not get this at all. So... a company is going to implement DRM because they HAD been supporting DRM free, but because a DRM client decides to cut into their profit they are going to abandon DRM free?

I think my brain just broke.

They released the game on steam without it being integrated into steams DRM. In other words because of this when someone got a refund for their game that person could just keep the game on their computer and continue to play it. The dev had no way of knowing if the person who had gotten the refund had actually removed the game.

OK thank you for that explanation. I understand what you are getting at. It still makes zero sense because it is displaced anger. If they are upset over steam instituting a policy that dicks them over, then they should not be abandoning DRM free (which works well enough for them on GOG & Humble)... they should be abandoning the DRM client that dicked them around in the first place. They should Abandon Steam. The DRM or lack their of is not the problem... The problem is Steam and its policy (Imagine that)

Edit: I know it works well enough for them, because for example I just bought the entire Democracy 3 series over on GOG just a few days ago. However this kind of attitude actually makes me want to request a refund cause I hate the idea of my money going to a company that ends up vilifying its customers

 

[RealRT]

Sorry, but the sad reality of it all is that Steam refunds is an unquestionably good thing and if you suffer from them you should adapt to the market.

 

[Worgen]

"Bloody hell steam refund rate has gone from 0.09% to 17%. Methinks people are taking the piss. Here comes DRM again sadly..." Harris lamented.

OK I do not get this at all. So... a company is going to implement DRM because they HAD been supporting DRM free, but because a DRM client decides to cut into their profit they are going to abandon DRM free?

I think my brain just broke.

They released the game on steam without it being integrated into steams DRM. In other words because of this when someone got a refund for their game that person could just keep the game on their computer and continue to play it. The dev had no way of knowing if the person who had gotten the refund had actually removed the game.

OK thank you for that explanation. I understand what you are getting at. It still makes zero sense because it is displaced anger. If they are upset over steam instituting a policy that dicks them over, then they should not be abandoning DRM free (which works well enough for them on GOG & Humble)... they should be abandoning the DRM client that dicked them around in the first place. They should Abandon Steam. The DRM or lack their of is not the problem... The problem is Steam and its policy (Imagine that)

Well, with the humble bundle, any sales are final. With gog, I understand that while they do offer refunds, you have to argue as to why you should get one. The dev is just worried people will buy his game then just return it from steam but keep the game. Essentially getting it for free without having to worry about bothering with a torrent site. It also probably changes how devs get paid since now instead of when sales are made they get paid, they can't count on that money for 2 weeks since there is always the possibility of people just wanting refunds, although I don't really know how it currently works with steam paying out to the devs.

His worry is just that its a very easy method to pirate his game.