So a black actor is considering role of Johnny Storm and nerdrage has turned racist again.

[runic knight]

I think the first and most important question in this is "why the change?"
Really, that right there forms the split in opinion of the racists and the fans who see the change as yet another in a long list of Hollywood selling out bullshit.
Generally, fans are outraged by nearly any change in characters they like, from the blonde Bond to cowboy bloodrein. You can't just assume that people who nit pick over every trivial detail in general are doing so on this one just because it is race related. Any attempt to say that is dishonest.
If the sole reason for the change is to fill diversity quotas or expel whatever guilty conscious the casting team has, then expect people to rage over this like the bullshit it is. Hell, expect people who are black to get upset that all the company can do for black heroes is a skin color change. It would be the most obvious of pandering attempts and should be treated like such. If the reason they made the change was to give it more diverse feel, then everyone should hate the decision. It would devalue the characters, the source material and even race itself in the attempt.

Now, if this was done because the actor could capture the spirit of the character better, or it is an exploration of the characters in a different setting, scenario or to explore what may have made characters into the personalities they are known and loved for today, then I would give it a pass for the most part. I can easily see how any of the FF could be changed in race under the idea of a modern reboot and done so in a way that would fit the character and actually work with the source material. With Ben, for instance, they could use his change from a black man into a, well, thing as a sort of commentary about how far and how short society has come and perspectives being influenced by preconceived notions based on race, as well as initial impulse on something we don't understand or can't safely categorize right away. They could do this with literally 5 minutes of footage, hell even done so with humor as a joke, if handled right and that alone would justify the change in race to me.
For Johnny, well, I always recall him as an asshole of sorts, flashy, show off and oblivious to others. I can see race being used both as a means to explain his attitude and personality as well as how his character would change and grow after he gets his powers. Hell, you could make it a subplot similar to how you could make Ben's, where when his powers are active, you can't see race and people have to form new opinions on something they have no reference for only to have them be challenged by old preconceptions once the powers are off. There is a lot they could do with this, if they sought to.


But, in all honesty, I really doubt this was anything but a PR decision to appeal to a demographic they usually don't pander to directly. So anyone crying racist to people objecting to that need to shut it.

 

[Milanezi]

Is it even possible to think this could be stupid idea, without shouts of 'RACIST' and a large amount of pitchfork wielding?? We live in a world full of people just waiting to be offended, and it's getting boring. If something's non-canon, how can it be racist to point it out?

In this case, I don't really care. But the switching ethnicity's of major characters could get a little tiresome if it appears to merely be for p.c. reasons (I'm looking at you Bond!).

You said it all. It's not racism, it's just that the character already exists, and the character is white AND blond, which is to say, if the actor isn't blond, that would be upsetting enough already (and it wouldn't even have to do with ethnicity). I could just say "whatever" since I'm no fan AT ALL of the Fantastic Four, but I can imagine the nerd rage and I believe it to be valid.
This isn't a nerd rage about "script changes" to better adapt the comic book. This is an unjustified MAJOR change to a character, I say major because, in my opinion, ANY visual change to a COMIC BOOK character is big.
However... With HARMONY, and by that I mean great direction, great script, great acting all working together, you can put a woman and insist it's a man named John and the movie will be a success; I never trusted in Heath Ledger as Joker, yet he kicked ass so much that Nicholson's Joker (which IS much more alike the comics deal) has faded from my mind considerably, Selina Kyle on the other hand...

WHY are you looking at Bond?! What did I miss? What happened to Bond??? He MUST remain British!!!

 

[Strazdas]

Wait a minute. maybe im mistaken but shouldnt fantastic four be a family (as in two parents a daughter and a son)? In this case. a black son from two white parents? Does this actually happen?

Other than that i got no objections, for me the race of the chracter has no impact whatsoever, its jsut that this kinda goes agasint internal fantastic four logic.

 

[Smeatza]

It is exceptionally odd that people who didn't even play the game were such a large portion of the complaining audience. I guess people just enjoy having something to whine about...

I've invested over £200 and much time and energy into the pre-existing lore of Devil May Cry. The fact that Capcom didn't care about fans like me, who were already invested in the lore, at all, stings a little.
I've said it before and I'm sure I'll say it again, imagine the shitstorm if Activision announced that the next Call of Duty would be a 3rd person, turn based, strategy game set in a fantasy setting.

OT: I see no problem as long as Susan is black too.

 

[Strazdas]

Nope

The only people related in the Fantastic Four are Johnny (human torch) and Sue Storm (invisbile woman)..(and then sue to Richard by marriage) And then The Thing isn't related to anyone, he's just Richards old friend.

It was my mistake then. wonder where i got that idea from....

 

[Edguy]

No, no, you've missed the point. The racism comes from the idea that an actor should automatically not be considered for a role based solely on their race.

Uhm, finding an actor who is similar in appearance and personality to the character in question is, together with acting skills and name-value, the #1 priority when casting.. Like it or not, one's ethnicity is a big part of who you are. Shouting racist at people who think that such a big change, for no apparent reason, is unnecessary, that's pretty moronic, and, imo, a lot more offensive than the people you are addressing.

 

[Soxafloppin]

Hmmm, Sue storm would have to be black as well then..I know people like to pretend that Race isn't a thing, but its kind of a thing.

 

[Petromir]

Same thing with James Bond, unless there is some kind of canon nod to the theory that each acted James Bond is a different agent, and presuming that is not the case, I would be against a black James Bond, or any other colour.

James bond is always treated as the same person, the actor changing is just ignored, there are even occasional cross actor references in a couple of movies I think. It's also not a classic reboot when they change him, far to much remains the same.

Doctor Who on the other hand, has no reason to be white all the time since his regenerations seem to reconfigure everything else about him, and probably should have been another colour at least once by now.

It would be interesting to see but tricky to keep him noticeably the same character. While plenty changes about him, in all his TV incarnations with one exception he's pretty much been played as an eccentric upper middle-class Brit(and usually sporting a southern English accent) the one time he deviated from this noticeably, at the start of 'Modern' Who where it was commented upon. Since Eccleston's departure from the posh Brit role, the next two have somewhat pulled the role back to said eccentric posh Brit characteristics.

Basically how do you bring anything other than a cosmetic skin colour change to the Dr without creating to much of a disconnect.

The Doctor is a weird case, because while it unusually has a great mechanism for actor change built in, but this also means that there's in some ways less scope to change him more than cosmetically as there's greater chance of a disconnect. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but that it risks changing the Dr to much at once, or not enough and in the latter case feeling like it was all PC and brings little to the role.

The other issue is that a Black (or Asian or any other race) replacement for Matt Smith may well suffer from the same issue that Matt Smith did early on, that the writers were still in many ways writing for his predecessor, this lead him to come across as a poor David Tennant rather than his own distinct incarnation.

There are a number of great examples of major changes to a character that worked, both in Race (in say Baz Luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet) and indeed Sex (Battlestar Galactica). It is however often difficult to do.

Bond and Dr Who are unusual in that in changing the lead actor as much as both have they've in many ways changed much less than franchise that have gone through far less in the way of main character changes.

A full on reboot of something is often the best way to change a character like this, especially in a way that allows you to start off a reboot with a brief origin story or similar (Batman movies unless direct sequels tend to start with the murder of Bruce Wayne's parents) as this gives you a way to plant the seeds of your new version. This also means individual superhero movies have mechanisms to change a character in such a way, while group movies have issues (you risk spending to long on origins and therefore pacing badly).

 

[Private Custard]

WHY are you looking at Bond?! What did I miss? What happened to Bond??? He MUST remain British!!!

I know what you meant to say, but you may want to change the wording on that!

As for Bond, there was talk a while back of Idris Elba being the first black Bond which, awesome as he is, I didn't really think would fit.


Overall, I've been quoted numerous times in this thread and have to say, well done escapists, for having a well reasoned and rational discussion about something that could be considered 'walking on eggshells' territory!

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

As long as they stay true to the nature of the character, then I'm okay with this.

I did get pretty irked when they had Ludacris play Jim Bravura in the Max Payne movie. Here's a crusty, overweight, middle aged white character being played by a young, fit black man... why? I'm all for having the best actor for the role regardless of race but that casting choice was just *puts sunglasses on* ludicrous.

To be fair, the whole casting in that movie was horrible. Marky Mark as Max Payne didn't cut it for me. Max is supposed to be grizzled and cynical and depressed; Marky just looks angry most of the time. Same with Ludacris - who thought changing an irascible, bumbling old fart into such a bored, lackluster character?

 

[Mr F.]

I'm more bothered by the fact they're making ANOTHER' Fantastic Four movie then the color of the flaming twat I didn't like the first time around.

The real problem there is that it's not an in-house Marvel movie like the Avengers, it's done by 20th Century Fox which means it will likely suck and also likely get another remake if and when the rights ever default back to Marvel/Disney.

OT: I'm not a fan of the race swapping thing in a pre-established character. The Fantastic Four is that stereotypical white 50's family with superpowers. I have comics where Johnny Storm is the most painfully white California bleach blond kid you can roll out of the suburbs. He's so white he makes Wonder Bread look tanned. But sadly, as humorous as that is, he is still a white guy. I'd cry bloody murder if they made Storm or Luke Cage white. That's not racist, that's having respect for the character as they were made.

If Marvel comics wants to make an all black or multi-racial family out of the Fantastic Four though, I'd be all for that. At the same time though, they could just make new and interesting characters that aren't white. A little color in the comics wouldn't hurt.

Sorry for quoting you. First off, I have no real idea about the back story or origin stories or anything whatsoever. I just want to make that clear. I thought the first film was fun but totally and utterly forgettable. If I concentrate, I think there might have been a sequel which made the first film look good in retrospect by simply being terribad. But this part of what you said intrigued me.

I'm not a fan of the race swapping thing in a pre-established character. The Fantastic Four is that stereotypical white 50's family with superpowers.

That line right there justifies raceswapping etc. Bringing the film away from its roots and into the 21st century. Cause yeah, 1961 (Some other dude in the thread used that date, not me, not claiming I know when it was written) was not exactly the most enlightened time. If the film is going to be set in the 21st century and dealing with evil superblehs using modern evil superbleh powers (Superbleh, my term for describing people with superpowers who do not interest me at all) then it is fair to bring the origin stories forward was well.

I have comics where Johnny Storm is the most painfully white California bleach blond kid you can roll out of the suburbs.

Is his whiteness the defining part of his character or is it his suburban upbringing?

See, from what I have seen there are not that many good examples of why changing the race is that much of a huge thing. Or that much of a thing at all. If you are right and have caught the spirit of the original comics, that they were supposed to be a typical family from the Suburbs given SUPEH POWEHS! then a shift to diversify keeps them in line with being a typical family. Or maybe just no longer the *most* typical family.

"Rhyme nor reason". Quite Captcha. Quite.

 

[aba1]

I am against it but not strongly. It just makes more sense to have him be white because his character has always been white. Changing his ethnicity will alter his origins and family and random other little things that put off people who are invested in his character because of the comics. Most of those reasons are reasons I think it is a bad idea from a corporate and story telling stand point. Personally I don't care to much it is a different universe and if it is going to be done at least it is being done in a way that doesn't screw anything up so ya go for it see what I care skin colour shouldn't matter.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I'm more bothered by the fact they're making ANOTHER' Fantastic Four movie then the color of the flaming twat I didn't like the first time around.

The real problem there is that it's not an in-house Marvel movie like the Avengers, it's done by 20th Century Fox which means it will likely suck and also likely get another remake if and when the rights ever default back to Marvel/Disney.

OT: I'm not a fan of the race swapping thing in a pre-established character. The Fantastic Four is that stereotypical white 50's family with superpowers. I have comics where Johnny Storm is the most painfully white California bleach blond kid you can roll out of the suburbs. He's so white he makes Wonder Bread look tanned. But sadly, as humorous as that is, he is still a white guy. I'd cry bloody murder if they made Storm or Luke Cage white. That's not racist, that's having respect for the character as they were made.

If Marvel comics wants to make an all black or multi-racial family out of the Fantastic Four though, I'd be all for that. At the same time though, they could just make new and interesting characters that aren't white. A little color in the comics wouldn't hurt.

Sorry for quoting you. First off, I have no real idea about the back story or origin stories or anything whatsoever. I just want to make that clear. I thought the first film was fun but totally and utterly forgettable. If I concentrate, I think there might have been a sequel which made the first film look good in retrospect by simply being terribad. But this part of what you said intrigued me.

I'm not a fan of the race swapping thing in a pre-established character. The Fantastic Four is that stereotypical white 50's family with superpowers.

That line right there justifies raceswapping etc. Bringing the film away from its roots and into the 21st century. Cause yeah, 1961 (Some other dude in the thread used that date, not me, not claiming I know when it was written) was not exactly the most enlightened time. If the film is going to be set in the 21st century and dealing with evil superblehs using modern evil superbleh powers (Superbleh, my term for describing people with superpowers who do not interest me at all) then it is fair to bring the origin stories forward was well.

I have comics where Johnny Storm is the most painfully white California bleach blond kid you can roll out of the suburbs.

Is his whiteness the defining part of his character or is it his suburban upbringing?

See, from what I have seen there are not that many good examples of why changing the race is that much of a huge thing. Or that much of a thing at all. If you are right and have caught the spirit of the original comics, that they were supposed to be a typical family from the Suburbs given SUPEH POWEHS! then a shift to diversify keeps them in line with being a typical family. Or maybe just no longer the *most* typical family.

"Rhyme nor reason". Quite Captcha. Quite.

My answer to stuff like this is, if you don't like it, don't change it, make something new. The past was a racist place, yes. But I'd argue that if you're offended by how white bread media from it is, there are better ways to fix it than inserting modern ideals into an old property. To do so would be to gloss over something from a dark period of history. In other words, don't remake Leave it to Beaver but make the family multicultural. Make a show like Modern Family instead.

 

[KrossBillNye]

Allow me to ask this one question. There is a lot of text about this but it is important.

Is Sue Storms going to be played by a black woman? If not... then this entire discuss is pointless.

Otherwise Johnny and Sue's parents have A LOT of explaining to do.

 

[x EvilErmine x]

Who the fuck cares? Seriously I think people should stop complaining about stuff like this. why would you care whom the actor is, what's important is how he or she plays the role. Can they bring the character to life? Thats the only thing that matters.

For example

Spoiler: Nick Fury from the comics

Spoiler: Nick Fury from the films

And

Spoiler: Heimdall from the comics

Spoiler: Heimdall from the film

Do you really think that they would have been any more awesome if they were played by a white actor as per the source material?

 

[kypsilon]

I'm more bothered by the fact they're making ANOTHER' Fantastic Four movie then the color of the flaming twat I didn't like the first time around.

The real problem there is that it's not an in-house Marvel movie like the Avengers, it's done by 20th Century Fox which means it will likely suck and also likely get another remake if and when the rights ever default back to Marvel/Disney.

OT: I'm not a fan of the race swapping thing in a pre-established character. The Fantastic Four is that stereotypical white 50's family with superpowers. I have comics where Johnny Storm is the most painfully white California bleach blond kid you can roll out of the suburbs. He's so white he makes Wonder Bread look tanned. But sadly, as humorous as that is, he is still a white guy. I'd cry bloody murder if they made Storm or Luke Cage white. That's not racist, that's having respect for the character as they were made.

If Marvel comics wants to make an all black or multi-racial family out of the Fantastic Four though, I'd be all for that. At the same time though, they could just make new and interesting characters that aren't white. A little color in the comics wouldn't hurt.

Sorry for quoting you. First off, I have no real idea about the back story or origin stories or anything whatsoever. I just want to make that clear. I thought the first film was fun but totally and utterly forgettable. If I concentrate, I think there might have been a sequel which made the first film look good in retrospect by simply being terribad. But this part of what you said intrigued me.

I'm not a fan of the race swapping thing in a pre-established character. The Fantastic Four is that stereotypical white 50's family with superpowers.

That line right there justifies raceswapping etc. Bringing the film away from its roots and into the 21st century. Cause yeah, 1961 (Some other dude in the thread used that date, not me, not claiming I know when it was written) was not exactly the most enlightened time. If the film is going to be set in the 21st century and dealing with evil superblehs using modern evil superbleh powers (Superbleh, my term for describing people with superpowers who do not interest me at all) then it is fair to bring the origin stories forward was well.

I have comics where Johnny Storm is the most painfully white California bleach blond kid you can roll out of the suburbs.

Is his whiteness the defining part of his character or is it his suburban upbringing?

See, from what I have seen there are not that many good examples of why changing the race is that much of a huge thing. Or that much of a thing at all. If you are right and have caught the spirit of the original comics, that they were supposed to be a typical family from the Suburbs given SUPEH POWEHS! then a shift to diversify keeps them in line with being a typical family. Or maybe just no longer the *most* typical family.

"Rhyme nor reason". Quite Captcha. Quite.

Absolutely all valid points. But I think rather than letting the studios change the source material, the comics should do it first. Upgrade the Fantastic Four for a new age and then make a movie about them.

 

[KrossBillNye]

Who the fuck cares? Seriously I think people should stop complaining about stuff like this. why would you care whom the actor is, what's important is how he or she plays the role. Can they bring the character to life? Thats the only thing that matters.

For example

Spoiler: Nick Fury from the comics

Spoiler: Nick Fury from the films

And

Spoiler: Heimdall from the comics

Spoiler: Heimdall from the film

Do you really think that they would have been any more awesome if they were played by a white actor as per the source material?

You forgot Blade. Blade is white in the Comics but was black in the movies.

I am all for changes like that. It gives them some leg room.

But if you are going to change Johnny Storm black you need to turn Sue Storm black or you will be either implying that they are step-brother/sisters or that their mother was not faithful to Mr Storm.