So a black actor is considering role of Johnny Storm and nerdrage has turned racist again.

[Lovely Mixture]

What relevance it has. Is his "whiteness" central to his character? If so, in what way? If not, then who cares?

And no, "he's white" does not speak for itself in terms of relevance, unless he's a Neo-Nazi or something..

Its for the same reason that people freaked out when they changed how Dante looked in DMC. When you take an existing character and completely redesign the look it will never go over with the fans. Especially when they is no point in doing tn such as the case with Johnny Storm.

I was under the impression that most of the complaints came from the change to Dante's character, which is something I can actually understand. Sure, there was some complaining about his new look, but I don't think it was as much an issue to people who actually played it and were upset about Dante being a completely different person.

Yeah I got that impression as well, most of the time game "journalists" were strawmanning those who disliked the reboot by saying "you just don't like Dante's hair color." When the complaints, which admittedly had some of that, also included:

"Why did you need to reboot Devil May Cry in the first place?"
"Why did you give it to a Western studio that has only made three games?"
"FUCK YOU" [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cbMIKiGjy8]

I was under the impression that most of the complaints came from the change to Dante's character, which is something I can actually understand. Sure, there was some complaining about his new look, but I don't think it was as much an issue to people who actually played it and were upset about Dante being a completely different person.

Well sorry to break it to you but your kind of wrong. Sure the people who played it didnt care but the people who played it were not the same people who were bitching for six months straight about Dantes new look.

People played it and also complained about the story and Dante's character. Not his look.

 

[KrossBillNye]

You forgot Blade. Blade is white in the Comics...

...No he really isn't. Never has been.

Also half brother and sister maybe? Not everything is the nuclear family nowadays. Their mother remarried and got pregnant with Johnny, simple.

Actually you are right he wasn't.

I have no idea why I thought that for a moment...

But back on topic, the point is if you want to show a movie 'based' off a comic book shouldn't you stick to the original source material?

If people really want a black super hero there are plenty of black super hero's to choose from Marvel, Luke Cage, Bishop, Black Panther, Storm.

There is even more in DC.

I am not against Black people getting a lead role in movies. I loved Blade. I loved the re-imagining of Heimdall. Nic Fury was also a nice touch since both those characters didn't have too much of a re-make to make it THAT much of a big deal.

Johnny has always been White in comics, TV shows, and movies. To suddenly say he's black will make those who follow the franchise to simply reply with 'what?' or probably something more profane.

Personally I would just like to know why they want to do this? Is it because of the lack of black guy rolls in movies? Why not release a few movies with lead black guy superheros? I would love to see a Luke Cage, Bishop, or Black Panther Movie.

 

[ninjaRiv]

When it's something as arbitrary as a characters race, and has absolutely ZERO effect on who the man is as a character... then what's the fucking problem?

No, really, what's the fucking problem? If you're getting pissy over something as minor and insignificant as a racial change, you've got some issues. Source material be damned.

Not too mention, and this is the bit people are probably going to take offense to, with so many roles in these films going to good looking white guys, I don't really see too much of an issue with one or two bits going to someone of a different race. That's right, things aren't the perfect utopia of equality idiots tell you it is, and as far as I'm concerned, it's okay to get rid of some of all the goddamn whiteness.

People like yourself forget that these characters are important to a lot of people. I'm gonna go all the way back to the black Spider-man thing here, which I didn't want to do because I got fucking sick of that.

These characters have been around for a long time. A lot of people grew up with them or found them at certain points in life. peter Parker was like looking into a mirror for many social outcasts and still is. Black AND white, by the way. So the continued to read about these characters and fall in love with them. It's what built our community, for crying out loud.

So you can go ahead and call those people sad and pathetic but they're not. They're seeing characters they love, characters who represent who they are (Spider-man) and who they desperately want to be (Human Torch) and I think wanting nothing about them to change is perfectly valid. That's the fucking problem. They see characters having ethnicity changed because of no reason at all and they don't like it. I'd probably count myself among these people a little, although, these two characters never had a big impact on me. But there are characters who have. And I'd fight anybody who tried to change them. It's needless change for stupid reasons. Also, people like myself are sensitive to being called racist because we have a preference. That adds a lot to the fighting.

But facets of personality don't change because of race! If you think they do, then I'm sorry, but that IS racist. Human Torch can still be a wisecracking doofus even if he's black! If you're also unable to connect to someone just because of skin color, then I apologize again, but I think you got some issues...

And don't talk to me like I'm some pleb who knows fuck all about comics, kay? I've got favorite heroes,just like you. If a Green Arrow film was being made, and it turns Ollie Queen was Spanish this time around, I wouldn't give a damn.

I don't have issues with race, trust me. I was defending SOME fans hatred towards change, not race. I didn't say all fans were like that at all. A lot of racism, I think, comes from not wanting ANY change at all. It's easy to sound racist of race is what's being changed. What if they wanted him wearing pink frills as a costume? Pretty sure they'd have the same complaints. 'Kay?

That I would understand because pink frills would look fucking stupid. This isn't pink frills however, it's a change in skin and hair color. Everything else remains intact, it's just his race, which is insignificant. I mean, is Human Torch just impossible to get behind now because he's black?

No, he's not impossible to get behind. I'm just trying to put things into perspective, show that it's not all racism and bigotry. I also think it's a needless change that serves no purpose. The flip side is "Would it matter if he was played by a white actor?" Honestly, I got sick of this with the Spider-Man thing. If they change the FF to the point I don't enjoy it, I'll read the comics instead, providing they don't force a black Johnny Storm into the comics, like they did with Sammy L J. I may be sick of that crap, but I still feel the need to defend the middle ground, the grey area. That it's not all racism. Plenty of people just don't want change. I feel some of the actual racists (those who are racist with things like this "******'s can't be nerds" etc but not in any other way) are actually confused and aren't sure WHY they don't want it. they just know a change is bad.

God, I hope that made more sense than the shit I've said already.

Also, to you personally; sorry about the sarcastic "'kay" using it against you. Bad mood, felt like my point wasn't getting across (it wasn't, I've admitted I have difficulty doing that) and blah.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

Personally I would just like to know why they want to do this? Is it because of the lack of black guy rolls in movies? Why not release a few movies with lead black guy superheros? I would love to see a Luke Cage, Bishop, or Black Panther Movie.

Well an actor said he was interested, and he'd like a fair shot. Nothing really more about it.

No one can really say "you can't do that." I mean, studios are allowed to pick their actors any way they want to right?

If someone puts a sign that "Whites/Blacks/Hispanics/Asians not allowed on set" THEN I will start saying something is up.

 

[KrossBillNye]

Personally I would just like to know why they want to do this? Is it because of the lack of black guy rolls in movies? Why not release a few movies with lead black guy superheros? I would love to see a Luke Cage, Bishop, or Black Panther Movie.

Well an actor said he was interested, and he'd like a fair shot. Nothing really more about it.

No one can really say "you can't do that." I mean, studios are allowed to pick their actors any way they want to right?

Oh absolutely. I am not saying he isn't 'allowed'. I am just saying it doesn't make sense due to source material.

Its like if Hollywood wanted to make a Static Shock movie with a white man.

Does that really interest everyone?

 

[Lovely Mixture]

Oh absolutely. I am not saying he isn't 'allowed'.

Definitely, I hope I didn't come off as trying to put words in your mouth.

I am just saying it doesn't make sense due to source material.

Its like if Hollywood wanted to make a Static Shock movie with a white man.

Does that really interest everyone?

It might not make sense. But I think it would gather some interest if the movie looked good enough.


Now what they SHOULD do, is make a film with the following synopsis:

An elite superhero team beloved by all, they are so popular they don't even wear masks, and then one of the white heroes/heroines gets killed....And the only person available who has similar superpowers good enough to replace the dead hero?.....A black person.

Cue the torn fanbase and the public reaction.

COMING THIS SUMMER

"Empowered Like Me"

________

It'd be like Hancock without that dumb second half.

 

[gazumped]

Surprised I haven't seen anyone mention this, they already made a white Fantastic Four character black in the last films.

Alicia Masters isn't one of the Big 4, but she's been a central character since the 60s and spent over 40 years being white and blonde until 2005.

How much difference did that make? Genuine question, did anyone feel like something was lost by making Ben's love interest and close friend of the team black instead of white?

People have already touched on this, but the Fantastic Four are white because the comic began in the 1960s where a family with enough wealth and backing to take a trip to space were incredibly unlikely (impossible?) to be black. Unless they're setting the film in the 1960s, I think they can afford to make some contextual changes.

In the comics, Johnny Storm is adopted. There's no reason he can't be adopted here, or a half-brother, or some other form of family.

Is he? I want this to be true so that everyone can stop niggling about it but I can't find a source.

 

[RJ 17]

There is definitely something racist about refusing to consider an actor or actress based purely on the colour of their skin, regardless of how well they actually play the character.

So going back to my example, would you consider it racist for a film about Muhammad Ali to NOT cast a white actor as Ali if said actor gave the best audtion? Edit: That is, would you consider the ensuing "WTF?!"ing from critics and audience members at the fact that they got a white guy to play Ali to be racist?

I'd argue no, it isn't. Why? Because Muhammad Ali was black..that's a fact. Just as Johnny Storm is white, that is also a fact.

Uhhh ... at the risk of sounding patronizing ... you are aware that Johnny Storm isn't a real person, right? Never has been? He's a fictional character in a comic book series who has the power to set himself on fire and fly around. Muhammad Ali was a real person. Comparing the two is kind of ridiculous.

You can't say "Johnny Storm IS white" in the same way that you say "Muhammad Ali was black." Because, y'know, Johnny Storm isn't actually white. He isn't actually anything. He doesn't really exist.

Oh, and you're also making the same old false equivalence argument between black and white characters but I'm bored of pointing out to people that it's a false equivalence when I'm 99% sure that they already know that it is, and are just hoping no one will call them out on it.

I love when people start quoting from the Speech and Debate 101 handbook so they can sound like they know what they're talking about. Fictional or not, the guy who came up with Johnny Storm made him a white guy. By your logic, it'd make just as much sense to have Sonic the Hedgehog CGI'd in as Johnny Storm because hey! Who cares? It's just a fictional character, right? Since they didn't exist we can do whatever we want with them! Santa isn't a big fat guy in a red suit with a beard, he's a kangaroo with a top-hat that lives in the ocean and knits socks.

Bottom line: fictional characters DO exist. They exist in the works from which they came. Why not make Huckleberry Finn a black kid? Why not make Snow White a black woman? If there was ever a version of the Marvel universe in which Johnny Storm was a black guy, there'd be absolutely no problem with this because it'd be officially canon that "In this series of comics, Johnny was actually black." Since that isn't the case, it's non-canon. And THAT - getting back to the main point of this mess - is why people are "nerd-raging" about this. It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Jordan is black, it's all about the fact that it goes completely against canon.

Edit: And I'm spent. With that, I officially no longer care about this topic. Discussions like these are specifically why I said this:

You know, just once JUST ONCE I want to see a discussion on race/sex/sexual preferences that has people respecting one another, being polite, and not just devolving into throwing insults at one another. JUST! ONCE!

You know, just once I'd like to come to The Escapist and NOT see a topic (or three) in the "Popular Forum Posts" box that's about race/sex/sexual preferences. Just once.

Have a pleasant day.

 

[gazumped]

If there was ever a version of the Marvel universe in which Johnny Storm was a black guy, there'd be absolutely no problem with this because it'd be officially canon that "In this series of comics, Johnny was actually black." Since that isn't the case, it's non-canon. And THAT - getting back to the main point of this mess - is why people are "nerd-raging" about this. It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Jordan is black, it's all about the fact that it goes completely against canon.

But this WOULD be a version of the Marvel universe in which Johnny Storm was a black guy. :/ Why would it make it any better if they'd switched his race in a series of comics or in a film?

 

[JimB]

I admit my source here is old Wizard Magazines making fun of how Sue has slutted it up with Johnny, which they said she got away with because he's adopted. But so far as I know, yeah, it's true.

 

[Ryotknife]

considering the iconic image of the human torch is....a guy on fire, I don't see how this is relevant. This would be like the Thing being played by a black guy. Now, there are some instances where I don't like the race being switched. Avatar the last airbender for example, made no sense to have a bunch of white people in it. I could understand if they were celebrities for the additional star power, but that was not the case.

A black James Bond or a white Shaft would get under my skin.

 

[Dragonclaw]

I don't want a black Johnny Storm for the same reason I don't want a white Blade, Sunfire, Cyborg, Apache Chief, War Machine, Nick Cage (Power Man), Mr Terrific, or Samurai. I also don't want to see a navy blue Thing or an indigo Hulk.

I get it, there are a lot of people who aren't comic book fans that are bound to say "big deal" and I think they are missing the point. If it wasn't for the fans that DO give a shit, that have been fans, in many cases for decades (I've been a regular reader of Spiderman since the mid 70's!) and those fans who, lets face it, are the REASON these characters have remained popular enough to even be considered for movies, and those fans have grown up with an expectation of how those characters have looked, many of those have looked the same for over 50 years. I also don't really want to see a black Marty McFly or Seth Rogan as Beverly Hills Cop....

With the recent DC reboot they really trued too hard to play the diversity card, throwing pretty much every black character they could into their own title and hoping one or two would stick. It smacked of being forced and most of them, despite being well written, crashed and burned as even my black customers thought it was silly.

 

[HalfTangible]

Also, nobody want's Marvel or Fox or whatever to choose the character purely for "PC" reasons. They should choose the best man for the job based on acting skills.

Correction: nobody intelligent wants an actor chosen for PC reasons. I saw it happen with that guy in Thor whose name escapes me (this was BEFORE the movie released and everyone saw that the guy /owned/ the part), and I guarantee there is somebody out there who is defending that this is the best move regardless of the actor's actual skill. Personally, I'm fine with changing the race as long as the guy can act and the character's race doesn't define them.

 

[Strazdas]

Nope

The only people related in the Fantastic Four are Johnny (human torch) and Sue Storm (invisbile woman)..(and then sue to Richard by marriage) And then The Thing isn't related to anyone, he's just Richards old friend.

It was my mistake then. wonder where i got that idea from....

You might be thinking of The Incredibles from Pixar, they were a family with a lot of the same powers (super strength, invisibility, stretching)

Yes, indeed that was the one. got those two mixed up. Thank you for finding the right one.

 

[MrGalactus]

There is definitely something racist about refusing to consider an actor or actress based purely on the colour of their skin, regardless of how well they actually play the character.

So going back to my example, would you consider it racist for a film about Muhammad Ali to NOT cast a white actor as Ali if said actor gave the best audtion? Edit: That is, would you consider the ensuing "WTF?!"ing from critics and audience members at the fact that they got a white guy to play Ali to be racist?

I'd argue no, it isn't. Why? Because Muhammad Ali was black..that's a fact. Just as Johnny Storm is white, that is also a fact.

I'd leave it up to Ali and the casting department, so they're not obliged to pick the white person in that scenario. Oddly enough, now that I think about it, I don't think it would be racist or prejudice to turn down the white actor based on them wanting someone for the role who "fit better", unless the white actor absolutely nailed the part, then it'd be a shame, I just think it's terrible to not even consider a person in the first place based on their race.
The difference between that and the Human Torch thing is that Ali is a real guy, who exists, and, like you said, it is a fact that he was black, and his race was actually an important part of who he was, but Johnny Storm isn't real. He's a fictional character open for interpretation and adaptation. It's not a fact that Johnny Storm is white, because the movie in question isn't even out yet.

So yeah,
http://www.thewrap.com/movies/column-post/will-chronicle-star-michael-b-jordan-be-human-torch-fantastic-four-88881
Michael B Jordan is considering being The Human Torch in the Fantastic Four reboot.

Ahem. I think Gary Oldman said it best when he said

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIaWo-BlBjs

Oh for fudges sake, i've forgotten what our embed code is.

LAWL
wrong Michael Jordan.
This one is off The Wire and is genuinely a great actor, not the 7ft, hitler-tash'd guy from Space Jam.

No, no, you've missed the point. The racism comes from the idea that an actor should automatically not be considered for a role based solely on their race.

Uhm, finding an actor who is similar in appearance and personality to the character in question is, together with acting skills and name-value, the #1 priority when casting.. Like it or not, one's ethnicity is a big part of who you are. Shouting racist at people who think that such a big change, for no apparent reason, is unnecessary, that's pretty moronic, and, imo, a lot more offensive than the people you are addressing.

This character has almost nothing to do with his ethnicity. He's not a white supremacist, or a politician, he's not a metaphorical white archetype character, or anything that makes his race an important part of his personality, so it shouldn't matter.
I'm not shouting racist at people who don't want the "change", I don't care whether they pick Michael B. Jordan, or any black person, white person, oriental person, or whatever, I just can't help but think it's really fucked up to immediately deny someone anything based on who they are before even knowing what they can do.

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "name-value"?

Also, nobody want's Marvel or Fox or whatever to choose the character purely for "PC" reasons. They should choose the best man for the job based on acting skills.

Correction: nobody intelligent wants an actor chosen for PC reasons. I saw it happen with that guy in Thor whose name escapes me (this was BEFORE the movie released and everyone saw that the guy /owned/ the part), and I guarantee there is somebody out there who is defending that this is the best move regardless of the actor's actual skill. Personally, I'm fine with changing the race as long as the guy can act and the character's race doesn't define them.

Wooooooooah, woah, woah, choosing him BECAUSE he's black would be just as bad as refusing to consider him because he's black. I don't think they should choose the actor based on his/her race at all.

The Heimdall (Idris Elba, by the way) thing was a mess. There were people saying they should cast him because he's black and there were no other black characters in the movie (or PC reasons, as you put it), and there were people saying he shouldn't even be considered for the role based on the face that the original character from the comics isn't black. I think both of these arguments are bullshit; It shouldn't matter. We really should be at the point now where shit like this doesn't matter.
Also, in my opinion, Idris Elba did an absolutely perfect job at the character of Heimdall. Funny how no one complained about his armour in the movie being gold, when he actually wears green and brown pelt in the comics.

 

[Bashfluff]

I want the appearance of the actor to match the character. I don't care if you're too short, too fat, too tall, too skinny, or whatever. If you cannot portray that iconic character in the way that they were designed, I don't want you playing that character. That opinion doesn't hold any less water once you pull out the race card.