So a black actor is considering role of Johnny Storm and nerdrage has turned racist again.

ZeroMachine

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Mimsofthedawg said:
At first I sided with the "racists". I mean, wouldn't it seem out of character if, 50 years from now, they had a black guy play Robin Williams in a docudrama about his life?
... I just... need to point this out.

Robin Williams is a real person.

Johnny Storm is a comic book character.

Adapting a comic book character to be different is simply fiction upon fiction.

Doing that with a real person is... well... lying.

Big difference here.
 

OldNewNewOld

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Character is canonically white. They use a black actor and ruin the canon.
It's not racism for wanting the white character to be white. If you're searching for racism, then it's racism to want him to be a black actor. You're basically forcing a white character out.

Don't change character just to pander to people who weren't fans in the first place, ignoring the real fans. If you want a black super hero, then create a black super hero, but don't change already existing heroes.

And for fucks sake stop searching for racism and sexism in every damn thing.
 

WindKnight

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Baron von Blitztank said:
hazabaza1 said:
I think the biggest question is why their trying to reboot that series after the trainwreck that was the other movies.
Remember the other three movies starring Captain America?

OT:
I fail to see why this is racist. For around 50 years Johnny Storm has been shown as a white man. At this stage it's just kind of expected that movie adaptations would follow suit with that. It's like having a black James Bond or a black version of The Doctor, it just doesn't really seem right after all this time. So naturally people are going to complain. It just seems like changing the source material for the sake of it, without doing anything new or interesting with the character.
Nick fury was always white in the comic books, until the Ultimate's based him off of Samuel L Jackson. One tv movie based off the character had David Hasselhoff playing him. I don't remmeber people pitching a fit about ultimate's fury, or Jackson being cast as him for the marvel movieverse.
 

Edguy

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I think it's pretty clear that the issue here isn't why Johnny shouldn't be played by a black guy"; it's why should he?
 

Lovely Mixture

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I just remembered there was a similar controversy with the "Memoirs of a Geisha" when they cast a Chinese actress as the lead Japanese character.

Of course, people should have focused on the much bigger issue (the fact that the entire movie was in english).

Torbjoern Bakke said:
I think it's pretty clear that the issue here isn't why Johnny shouldn't be played by a black guy"; it's why should he?
Well there's an actor who has expressed interest. And if the casting directors believe he fits the role, what more reason does there need to be?
 

OtherSideofSky

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I am not opposed to the idea of casting a black actor in this role, as long as his sister is cast so that they still look alike, because I honestly have no investment in the physical appearance of the Fantastic 4.

Besides, the previous three movies with all white people were steaming piles of shit, so anything that isn't what they did is probably a step in the right direction.
 

J-meMalone

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I'd be okay with this, provided his sister is also played by a black actress, otherwise that would raise way too many questions...

I mean race doesn't really play any real role in their characters, but their relationship as brother and sister does, so THAT needs to remain the same and so I'd be annoyed by the casting choice ONLY if Susan Storm remained white.
 

Lovely Mixture

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OtherSideofSky said:
I am not opposed to the idea of casting a black actor in this role, as long as his sister is cast so that they still look alike
J-meMalone said:
I'd be okay with this, provided his sister is also played by a black actress, otherwise that would raise way too many questions...

I mean race doesn't really play any real role in their characters, but their relationship as brother and sister does, so THAT needs to remain the same and so I'd be annoyed by the casting choice ONLY if Susan Storm remained white.

Ok seriously this is this fifth time this has been brought up, has no one thought up the idea of adoption or stepfamilies? They don't NEED to be biologically related, family relationships are not bound by blood.

No offense meant to either of you sirs.
 

prowll

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I feel this would be a mistake, on several levels. Not the least of which, this is a movie, therefore a business, and I don't think the American audience, at least, isn't ready.

Let's look at the big issues raised.

1. Johnny Storm is the sister of Sue Storm. Is Sue going to be black too? If so, is she having an interracial marriage with Reed, or is he black as well? We forget that 3 of the Fantastic Four are FAMILY, and while certainly around, interracial relations are not shown often in movies. They are ACCURATE, about never.

2. Why? While I agree black actors need more roles, and frankly we need more black superheroes that are cool, are we 'stunt-casting' a black actor into a very established character just to get attention? Or is he bringing something to the role?

3. Holy crap, how many times do we have to remake F4 before we realize, they're not going to be good for movies, and quit throwing good money after bad? I think Marvel studios could make a decent movie out of it, but Sony (It is still in Sony's wheelhouse, yes?) can't.

Again, I have no problem with changing some characters, maybe even major ones. Nick Fury? Excellent. Heimdall? Fine. I could even see a Punisher film with a black main character. Johnny Storm really can't be changed without major changes to the formula.
 

Sparrow

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My only issue is that if Johnny is black, Susan has to be black too. If that happens, cool. If they try to tie some kind of adoption shit into it or just ignore the brother/sister background... then I'd be pissed.
 

OtherSideofSky

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Lovely Mixture said:
I just remembered there was a similar controversy with the "Memoirs of a Geisha" when they cast a Chinese actress as the lead Japanese character.

Of course, people should have focused on the much bigger issue (the fact that the entire movie was in english).
Perhaps you are forgetting that Memoirs of a Geisha is an English novel written by a white guy from the USA. It was only later translated into Japanese and published in Japan, and the woman he interviewed to get the basis for the story wasn't very happy about it (a lawsuit was involved). She later wrote her own, considerably different, memoir.

The issue with casting mostly Chinese people as Japanese characters in that movie was that, in addition to the long and not terribly positive history between China and Japan, it came off as Hollywood just no knowing any better, rather than a deliberate change like in this case.
 

Souther Thorn

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Honestly, if he's got the acting chops and can manage Johnnys swagger and attitude, I don't give a damn whether they cast someone from Jupiter.
 

Berithil

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It's interesting seeing the people who say race isn't a big deal defend the choice for a black Johnny Storm so viciously :p

Quite honestly, I'm going to side with the people who support the canon. If he is canonically white, I think he should stay white, not because I'm racist, but because making a traditionally white character another ethnicity will stink of P.C.

But... If he's good for the part, then go for it, I guess (as long as Susan is black too. I don't care what some say, that will just raise too many needless questions). As a Norse mythology fan, if I could get over and really like Idris Elba as Heimdall, then I'll be fine with this.
 

waj9876

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If it's not supposed to be the same person as the source material, then it's fine. But if you're changing around a character just to fake PR, then yeah, that's a problem.

Imagine if...they suddenly made...eh...Mario Spanish. For no reason, he just suddenly is. Same thing.
 

ace_of_something

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His whiteness isn't really an important part of the character. I would just hope they would also make his sister black than, otherwise... it would bring too much attention to the matter.
 

JimB

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Oy. A lot of pages have gone by. I hope I'm not repeating anyone's points.

Private Custard said:
Is it even possible to think this could be stupid idea, without shouts of 'racist' and a large amount of pitchfork wielding? We live in a world full of people just waiting to be offended, and it's getting boring. If something's non-canon, how can it be racist to point it out?
In this instance, it's pretty racist. The movies exist separately from the comics, so the comic canon doesn't apply, since the movie creates its own canon as it goes; therefore, comic book canon is irrelevant. This only leaves with a complaint of, "But he's supposed to be white!" Without a reason why his race matters, yeah, it's racist.

Tombsite said:
Well if they also make Sue Storm black then I don't really have a problem with it.
In the comics, Johnny Storm is adopted. There's no reason he can't be adopted here, or a half-brother, or some other form of family.
 

Sonic Doctor

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Kaulen Fuhs said:
Shadowstar38 said:
Because Johnny is white. In every form of media he's in. What are you not understanding?
What relevance it has. Is his "whiteness" central to his character? If so, in what way? If not, then who cares?

And no, "he's white" does not speak for itself in terms of relevance, unless he's a Neo-Nazi or something..
MrGalactus said:
I'm not understanding why it matters. Surely his character is what's important, so whoever can interpret the personality best on screen should be given the part. Why should they compromise the character because of an unimportant aesthetic difference?
You two are not looking at this from a creative and/or literary perspective. Because "he's white" does speak for itself in that sense. Creators of a characters, doesn't matter if the characters embody it or show it, make characters look the way they do for a reason, the reason is because that is what they chose for them to look. Beyond core reasons, that is how they wanted the characters to look.

It has nothing to do with race, it has to do with aesthetics. Even if the character doesn't show it in how they act, a character's appearance still makes up what they are, especially if continuity wise through multiple views from the audience, the character has been taking in that way through the mind as described or visually if represented visually.

Granted the creators of the character in this instance haven't said anything.

But if I was, I would.

If I created a character, granted I'm a writer so my characters get their look by how I describe them:
First off I would find a way to have majority control/say in how that character is used in all media.

Let's say the character is a fair skinned woman with long flowing red hair. I described the character as such, "Fair skinned, woman, flowing red hair"

From then on out, if that character is used in other media, granted that people would have to come to me to get permission to use the character for making the story for which that character was already in, that character would have to be depicted as such, no matter if the character didn't have the air of being as such when interacting with other characters.

If that character was used to make a movie adaption(and first movie adaption always has to portray the character exactly as was made in the first place) of the story she was in, I would expect the actress to be fair skinned and have long red hair, if an actress with fair skin was found that didn't have red hair or long hair, she would be expected to dye her hair red for the part and grow her hair or get extensions, or she wouldn't get the part. Of course all non-fair skinned people would not be able to audition.

But to flip the coin to the other side, if I created a dark skinned character, I would expect the movie adapted character to be dark skinned.

Outward image of the character is just as important as the personality of the character. Again, the outward image of a character was made that way for a reason, even if the reason didn't pertain to the core/personality of the character.

OP point:
Besides, these people making this new movie, don't understand how to make the most money when making a movie, if they are changing the characters look. When creating an adaption of a franchise, you make the characters look how they were originally depicted, that way you bring in all he people that grew up with the franchise or experienced the franchise whenever they experienced it, because that is the core of the viewership for such a movie.

Now people have been pointing out that there is such a thing as alternate universes in comics and really any fiction in general.

The problem is, will the people that create this new movie point out that it is alternate universe, and no, not just say it to the people that are angry, but they have to add it into the movie somehow.

In the end, if you don't get what I am saying, then you don't understand the core creative concept of "character image". A concept that is well taught in creative writing classes. Outward image is as important as inward image, because even though it may not be important to the core story, it will be important to the audience that is experiencing the material, because it is a part of the aesthetics of the world of the story.
 

sXeth

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Given comics tendency to reboot their characters anyways, I don't have any huge problem with it. Though my fondness for being the Devils Advocate would ask those defending it what they'd say if a white guy played Luke Cage or Black Panther. I can't remember if it was this forum or not, but there was a rage thread about Keanu Reeves being in a japanese samurai movie being made too.
 

Sepko

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Desert Punk said:
Sepko said:
Desert Punk said:
So why re write two characters back story instead of just getting an actor of the proper race for either sibling? Which do you think is harder here?
"proper race"? Really?
Weird wording aside, it's not that hard to come up with a background, they're most likely not gonna dwell on it for more than two minutes. "Johnny was adopted by the Storm family when he was 5 or whatever." Easy as pie.

Really? "the proper race"?
Yes the proper race, let me spell it out for you.

If one is black, the other should be black, if one is white the other should be white. That way they dont need to come up with silly unneeded re writing of their back story.

Or is there a problem with them including a black woman as his sister instead of for some reason making her white when they are supposed to be related?
How sheltered are you? Seriously, you're either trolling or your idea of a family unit hasn't managed to go past the 50's. Does it matter if they're supposed to be related? Does the sibling dynamic somehow dwindle in your mind because they won't be related? What's silly and unneeded about a quick backstory change that won't effect the rest of the story in any conceivably remarkable way in the slightest?