So a black actor is considering role of Johnny Storm and nerdrage has turned racist again.

[J-meMalone]

I'd be okay with this, provided his sister is also played by a black actress, otherwise that would raise way too many questions...

I mean race doesn't really play any real role in their characters, but their relationship as brother and sister does, so THAT needs to remain the same and so I'd be annoyed by the casting choice ONLY if Susan Storm remained white.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

I am not opposed to the idea of casting a black actor in this role, as long as his sister is cast so that they still look alike

I'd be okay with this, provided his sister is also played by a black actress, otherwise that would raise way too many questions...

I mean race doesn't really play any real role in their characters, but their relationship as brother and sister does, so THAT needs to remain the same and so I'd be annoyed by the casting choice ONLY if Susan Storm remained white.

Ok seriously this is this fifth time this has been brought up, has no one thought up the idea of adoption or stepfamilies? They don't NEED to be biologically related, family relationships are not bound by blood.

No offense meant to either of you sirs.

 

[prowll]

I feel this would be a mistake, on several levels. Not the least of which, this is a movie, therefore a business, and I don't think the American audience, at least, isn't ready.

Let's look at the big issues raised.

1. Johnny Storm is the sister of Sue Storm. Is Sue going to be black too? If so, is she having an interracial marriage with Reed, or is he black as well? We forget that 3 of the Fantastic Four are FAMILY, and while certainly around, interracial relations are not shown often in movies. They are ACCURATE, about never.

2. Why? While I agree black actors need more roles, and frankly we need more black superheroes that are cool, are we 'stunt-casting' a black actor into a very established character just to get attention? Or is he bringing something to the role?

3. Holy crap, how many times do we have to remake F4 before we realize, they're not going to be good for movies, and quit throwing good money after bad? I think Marvel studios could make a decent movie out of it, but Sony (It is still in Sony's wheelhouse, yes?) can't.

Again, I have no problem with changing some characters, maybe even major ones. Nick Fury? Excellent. Heimdall? Fine. I could even see a Punisher film with a black main character. Johnny Storm really can't be changed without major changes to the formula.

 

[Sparrow]

My only issue is that if Johnny is black, Susan has to be black too. If that happens, cool. If they try to tie some kind of adoption shit into it or just ignore the brother/sister background... then I'd be pissed.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

I just remembered there was a similar controversy with the "Memoirs of a Geisha" when they cast a Chinese actress as the lead Japanese character.

Of course, people should have focused on the much bigger issue (the fact that the entire movie was in english).

Perhaps you are forgetting that Memoirs of a Geisha is an English novel written by a white guy from the USA. It was only later translated into Japanese and published in Japan, and the woman he interviewed to get the basis for the story wasn't very happy about it (a lawsuit was involved). She later wrote her own, considerably different, memoir.

The issue with casting mostly Chinese people as Japanese characters in that movie was that, in addition to the long and not terribly positive history between China and Japan, it came off as Hollywood just no knowing any better, rather than a deliberate change like in this case.

 

[Souther Thorn]

Honestly, if he's got the acting chops and can manage Johnnys swagger and attitude, I don't give a damn whether they cast someone from Jupiter.

 

[Berithil]

It's interesting seeing the people who say race isn't a big deal defend the choice for a black Johnny Storm so viciously

Quite honestly, I'm going to side with the people who support the canon. If he is canonically white, I think he should stay white, not because I'm racist, but because making a traditionally white character another ethnicity will stink of P.C.

But... If he's good for the part, then go for it, I guess (as long as Susan is black too. I don't care what some say, that will just raise too many needless questions). As a Norse mythology fan, if I could get over and really like Idris Elba as Heimdall, then I'll be fine with this.

 

[waj9876]

If it's not supposed to be the same person as the source material, then it's fine. But if you're changing around a character just to fake PR, then yeah, that's a problem.

Imagine if...they suddenly made...eh...Mario Spanish. For no reason, he just suddenly is. Same thing.

 

[ace_of_something]

His whiteness isn't really an important part of the character. I would just hope they would also make his sister black than, otherwise... it would bring too much attention to the matter.

 

[JimB]

Oy. A lot of pages have gone by. I hope I'm not repeating anyone's points.

Is it even possible to think this could be stupid idea, without shouts of 'racist' and a large amount of pitchfork wielding? We live in a world full of people just waiting to be offended, and it's getting boring. If something's non-canon, how can it be racist to point it out?

In this instance, it's pretty racist. The movies exist separately from the comics, so the comic canon doesn't apply, since the movie creates its own canon as it goes; therefore, comic book canon is irrelevant. This only leaves with a complaint of, "But he's supposed to be white!" Without a reason why his race matters, yeah, it's racist.

Well if they also make Sue Storm black then I don't really have a problem with it.

In the comics, Johnny Storm is adopted. There's no reason he can't be adopted here, or a half-brother, or some other form of family.

 

[Sonic Doctor]

Because Johnny is white. In every form of media he's in. What are you not understanding?

What relevance it has. Is his "whiteness" central to his character? If so, in what way? If not, then who cares?

And no, "he's white" does not speak for itself in terms of relevance, unless he's a Neo-Nazi or something..

I'm not understanding why it matters. Surely his character is what's important, so whoever can interpret the personality best on screen should be given the part. Why should they compromise the character because of an unimportant aesthetic difference?

You two are not looking at this from a creative and/or literary perspective. Because "he's white" does speak for itself in that sense. Creators of a characters, doesn't matter if the characters embody it or show it, make characters look the way they do for a reason, the reason is because that is what they chose for them to look. Beyond core reasons, that is how they wanted the characters to look.

It has nothing to do with race, it has to do with aesthetics. Even if the character doesn't show it in how they act, a character's appearance still makes up what they are, especially if continuity wise through multiple views from the audience, the character has been taking in that way through the mind as described or visually if represented visually.

Granted the creators of the character in this instance haven't said anything.

But if I was, I would.

If I created a character, granted I'm a writer so my characters get their look by how I describe them:
First off I would find a way to have majority control/say in how that character is used in all media.

Let's say the character is a fair skinned woman with long flowing red hair. I described the character as such, "Fair skinned, woman, flowing red hair"

From then on out, if that character is used in other media, granted that people would have to come to me to get permission to use the character for making the story for which that character was already in, that character would have to be depicted as such, no matter if the character didn't have the air of being as such when interacting with other characters.

If that character was used to make a movie adaption(and first movie adaption always has to portray the character exactly as was made in the first place) of the story she was in, I would expect the actress to be fair skinned and have long red hair, if an actress with fair skin was found that didn't have red hair or long hair, she would be expected to dye her hair red for the part and grow her hair or get extensions, or she wouldn't get the part. Of course all non-fair skinned people would not be able to audition.

But to flip the coin to the other side, if I created a dark skinned character, I would expect the movie adapted character to be dark skinned.

Outward image of the character is just as important as the personality of the character. Again, the outward image of a character was made that way for a reason, even if the reason didn't pertain to the core/personality of the character.

OP point:
Besides, these people making this new movie, don't understand how to make the most money when making a movie, if they are changing the characters look. When creating an adaption of a franchise, you make the characters look how they were originally depicted, that way you bring in all he people that grew up with the franchise or experienced the franchise whenever they experienced it, because that is the core of the viewership for such a movie.

Now people have been pointing out that there is such a thing as alternate universes in comics and really any fiction in general.

The problem is, will the people that create this new movie point out that it is alternate universe, and no, not just say it to the people that are angry, but they have to add it into the movie somehow.

In the end, if you don't get what I am saying, then you don't understand the core creative concept of "character image". A concept that is well taught in creative writing classes. Outward image is as important as inward image, because even though it may not be important to the core story, it will be important to the audience that is experiencing the material, because it is a part of the aesthetics of the world of the story.

 

[sXeth]

Given comics tendency to reboot their characters anyways, I don't have any huge problem with it. Though my fondness for being the Devils Advocate would ask those defending it what they'd say if a white guy played Luke Cage or Black Panther. I can't remember if it was this forum or not, but there was a rage thread about Keanu Reeves being in a japanese samurai movie being made too.

 

[Sepko]

So why re write two characters back story instead of just getting an actor of the proper race for either sibling? Which do you think is harder here?

"proper race"? Really?
Weird wording aside, it's not that hard to come up with a background, they're most likely not gonna dwell on it for more than two minutes. "Johnny was adopted by the Storm family when he was 5 or whatever." Easy as pie.

Really? "the proper race"?

Yes the proper race, let me spell it out for you.

If one is black, the other should be black, if one is white the other should be white. That way they dont need to come up with silly unneeded re writing of their back story.

Or is there a problem with them including a black woman as his sister instead of for some reason making her white when they are supposed to be related?

How sheltered are you? Seriously, you're either trolling or your idea of a family unit hasn't managed to go past the 50's. Does it matter if they're supposed to be related? Does the sibling dynamic somehow dwindle in your mind because they won't be related? What's silly and unneeded about a quick backstory change that won't effect the rest of the story in any conceivably remarkable way in the slightest?

 

[Sepko]

My only issue is that if Johnny is black, Susan has to be black too. If that happens, cool. If they try to tie some kind of adoption shit into it or just ignore the brother/sister background... then I'd be pissed.

What's wrong with adoption?

 

[Sepko]

Given comics tendency to reboot their characters anyways, I don't have any huge problem with it. Though my fondness for being the Devils Advocate would ask those defending it what they'd say if a white guy played Luke Cage or Black Panther. I can't remember if it was this forum or not, but there was a rage thread about Keanu Reeves being in a japanese samurai movie being made too.

There's a difference between white-washing and having a black guy try out one of the millions of white characters of potential racial interchangeability.

 

[Lieju]

Though my fondness for being the Devils Advocate would ask those defending it what they'd say if a white guy played Luke Cage or Black Panther.

1) For those characters, their race (or skin colour, or ethnicity) is an important part of their character.
2) There are far less black superheroes than there are white ones, so changing white to black is a step towards diversity, other way around it's not.

So it wouldn't be the same thing.

 

[Strain42]

I will admit that the small comic fanboy in me is going "but...Sue is his sister and...what?" which doesn't make sense even to me. They could easily still be related. Hell, my first girlfriend was half black. She looked black, her sister looked white. It happens. It could easily raise some audiences eyebrows, but it's hardly a big stretch of the imagination.

Y'know what I HAVEN'T seen mentioned here though? (and maybe it was, I only skimmed the first and last pages)

The people who don't wanna see Michael B. Jordan playing Human Torch because they watched Chronicle, have seen his acting and frankly just don't think he would be good for the part.

For me it's not a race thing. I didn't care when Idris Elba has Heimdall, I don't care that Jamie Foxx is playing Electro, and I wouldn't have cared if Donald Glover had been Peter Parker (I think he would have actually done a much better job than Andrew Garfield, and this may sound racist to some, but does anyone think Donald Glover should totally be Miles Morales if they ever get his movie off the ground?)

It's just that from what I've seen of this actor, I don't think he'd be a good Human Torch, and I don't think he should be handed the role just because he's friends with the director already.

I could be wrong, maybe he'd end up doing a great job. I've been surprised by many actors many times.

But yeah, right now I'm going to say up front I don't really want to see him playing the part, but it's because of what I've seen of his acting. Not the color of his skin.

 

[The_Echo]

I wouldn't consider it racist.

There's a huge difference between turning a character black and replacing them with a similar, black character (like Miles Morales).

Personally, changing the race of a character just seems... disrespectful to that character. I mean, if the Human Torch had been black to begin with and they were considering a white actor to play him, well that would just be racist as hell wouldn't it? Why isn't it the same the other way around?

So I'm just sat here waiting to be offended? So when people cry for a man to never even be considered for a role based on the fact that he has one physical feature that differs from the original character, nobody should get angry about that? sorry, mate, but it IS offensive, and it IS racist.

So are you saying if there were a movie centered around the bushmen tribes of Africa, that it would be acceptable to consider a white or Asian actor for the role of the tribe leader?

 

[Sepko]

I wouldn't consider it racist.

There's a huge difference between turning a character black and replacing them with a similar, black character (like Miles Morales).

Personally, changing the race of a character just seems... disrespectful to that character. I mean, if the Human Torch had been black to begin with and they were considering a white actor to play him, well that would just be racist as hell wouldn't it? Why isn't it the same the other way around?

So I'm just sat here waiting to be offended? So when people cry for a man to never even be considered for a role based on the fact that he has one physical feature that differs from the original character, nobody should get angry about that? sorry, mate, but it IS offensive, and it IS racist.

So are you saying if there were a movie centered around the bushmen tribes of Africa, that it would be acceptable to consider a white or Asian actor for the role of the tribe leader?

Ever heard of white-washing? Because it's vastly different to having a black guy play the part of one of the millions of white characters who could be any race.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

Well, they did just that with the characters of Jack Crawford and Freddy/Freddie Lounds in the TV series Hannibal, by having Laurence Fishburne pull off a rather convincing and excellent Crawford, and Freddie Lounds is now no longer an oafish greasy fat guy, but a nosy woman journalist.

I'd say it works like a charm.

Would I personally accept it if Dr. Hannibal Lecter or Will Graham was suddenly black or latino? No, I don't think I'd like that very much. Just as I don't like Lucy Liu doing an ersatz Watson in 'Elementary'. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

With movies and TV series, and movies and TV series based on books, there is a certain leeway you get by identifying and sticking to what really matters.

With iconic characters like those hailing from the comic book world, I don't think it's a very good idea. I personally don't like it. And that's not a racist stance, it's just a stance that strives to respect the source material. When you change something significantly, you're either adding payload that detracts from the original story, or you are creating an alternate universe from the position of a statement that could very well be interpreted as being revisionist.

We live in a sorry age in which we, on one hand, really seem hellbent on making everybody happy and creating equality, not noticing how unbalanced and off kilter everything has gone just in the last, say, twenty years. Characters and actors of colour are attacked pretty much instantly and described as being racist. Any depiction of a character of colour seems to get flagged for uncompromising scrutiny, making it a well trouble-laden thing, no matter the story or context of the character in question. Adding non-white characters can cause a ruckus. Having only white characters causes a ruckus. Turning white characters into non-white characters causes a ruckus. Turning non-white characters into white characters causes Gawker-level internet outrage. So... 'race' is obviously still a hot topic, and the only egalitarian thing I currently sense is that labelling everything 'racism' doesn't really help the situation, the people or the discussion much. Besides, it is evident that white 'racism' gets the shotgun treatment while any other-coloured racism seems to be getting ignored or labelled as a justifiable and totally logical thing. I take offense at that.