So a black actor is considering role of Johnny Storm and nerdrage has turned racist again.
- Thread starter MrGalactus
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considering the iconic image of the human torch is....a guy on fire, I don't see how this is relevant. This would be like the Thing being played by a black guy. Now, there are some instances where I don't like the race being switched. Avatar the last airbender for example, made no sense to have a bunch of white people in it. I could understand if they were celebrities for the additional star power, but that was not the case.
A black James Bond or a white Shaft would get under my skin.
A black James Bond or a white Shaft would get under my skin.
I don't want a black Johnny Storm for the same reason I don't want a white Blade, Sunfire, Cyborg, Apache Chief, War Machine, Nick Cage (Power Man), Mr Terrific, or Samurai. I also don't want to see a navy blue Thing or an indigo Hulk.
I get it, there are a lot of people who aren't comic book fans that are bound to say "big deal" and I think they are missing the point. If it wasn't for the fans that DO give a shit, that have been fans, in many cases for decades (I've been a regular reader of Spiderman since the mid 70's!) and those fans who, lets face it, are the REASON these characters have remained popular enough to even be considered for movies, and those fans have grown up with an expectation of how those characters have looked, many of those have looked the same for over 50 years. I also don't really want to see a black Marty McFly or Seth Rogan as Beverly Hills Cop....
With the recent DC reboot they really trued too hard to play the diversity card, throwing pretty much every black character they could into their own title and hoping one or two would stick. It smacked of being forced and most of them, despite being well written, crashed and burned as even my black customers thought it was silly.
I get it, there are a lot of people who aren't comic book fans that are bound to say "big deal" and I think they are missing the point. If it wasn't for the fans that DO give a shit, that have been fans, in many cases for decades (I've been a regular reader of Spiderman since the mid 70's!) and those fans who, lets face it, are the REASON these characters have remained popular enough to even be considered for movies, and those fans have grown up with an expectation of how those characters have looked, many of those have looked the same for over 50 years. I also don't really want to see a black Marty McFly or Seth Rogan as Beverly Hills Cop....
With the recent DC reboot they really trued too hard to play the diversity card, throwing pretty much every black character they could into their own title and hoping one or two would stick. It smacked of being forced and most of them, despite being well written, crashed and burned as even my black customers thought it was silly.
Correction: nobody intelligent wants an actor chosen for PC reasons. I saw it happen with that guy in Thor whose name escapes me (this was BEFORE the movie released and everyone saw that the guy /owned/ the part), and I guarantee there is somebody out there who is defending that this is the best move regardless of the actor's actual skill. Personally, I'm fine with changing the race as long as the guy can act and the character's race doesn't define them.MrGalactus said:
I'd leave it up to Ali and the casting department, so they're not obliged to pick the white person in that scenario. Oddly enough, now that I think about it, I don't think it would be racist or prejudice to turn down the white actor based on them wanting someone for the role who "fit better", unless the white actor absolutely nailed the part, then it'd be a shame, I just think it's terrible to not even consider a person in the first place based on their race.RJ 17 said:
The difference between that and the Human Torch thing is that Ali is a real guy, who exists, and, like you said, it is a fact that he was black, and his race was actually an important part of who he was, but Johnny Storm isn't real. He's a fictional character open for interpretation and adaptation. It's not a fact that Johnny Storm is white, because the movie in question isn't even out yet.
LAWLmatthew_lane said:
wrong Michael Jordan.
This one is off The Wire and is genuinely a great actor, not the 7ft, hitler-tash'd guy from Space Jam.
This character has almost nothing to do with his ethnicity. He's not a white supremacist, or a politician, he's not a metaphorical white archetype character, or anything that makes his race an important part of his personality, so it shouldn't matter.Torbjoern Bakke said:
I'm not shouting racist at people who don't want the "change", I don't care whether they pick Michael B. Jordan, or any black person, white person, oriental person, or whatever, I just can't help but think it's really fucked up to immediately deny someone anything based on who they are before even knowing what they can do.
Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "name-value"?
Wooooooooah, woah, woah, choosing him BECAUSE he's black would be just as bad as refusing to consider him because he's black. I don't think they should choose the actor based on his/her race at all.HalfTangible said:
The Heimdall (Idris Elba, by the way) thing was a mess. There were people saying they should cast him because he's black and there were no other black characters in the movie (or PC reasons, as you put it), and there were people saying he shouldn't even be considered for the role based on the face that the original character from the comics isn't black. I think both of these arguments are bullshit; It shouldn't matter. We really should be at the point now where shit like this doesn't matter.
Also, in my opinion, Idris Elba did an absolutely perfect job at the character of Heimdall. Funny how no one complained about his armour in the movie being gold, when he actually wears green and brown pelt in the comics.
I want the appearance of the actor to match the character. I don't care if you're too short, too fat, too tall, too skinny, or whatever. If you cannot portray that iconic character in the way that they were designed, I don't want you playing that character. That opinion doesn't hold any less water once you pull out the race card.
You're completely right, Imperator.Imperator_DK said:
What I want to know is why don't the comics and related films follow US demographics more closely? By rights 16.3% of all superheroes should be Hispanic, and 4.8% Asian. Why this racist monopolization by whites and blacks? Are they even trying to be inclusive? I can't even remember the last time I saw an openly Orthodox Jewish comic book hero.
Where are all the superheroes aged 50+? Some of these guys and girls are immortal, right, so this ridiculous Logan's Run effect shouldn't be so prevalent. And don't give me the "they're fictional characters, hey don't age" defence, that's just airbrushing out an entire demographic, and one that makes up a third of all Americans.
And what's with the fascistic and unrealistic physical portrayal of superheroes? 35% of American adults are obese. How many plus-sized superheroes can you name? No, not freakishly steroid-pumped "heroes" that encourage drug abuse and unhealthily low bodyfat, I mean proud, healthy, full-figured superheroes who don't let their curves prevent them from fighting crime and acting as great role models for 35% of US adults and 17% of children. Almost a fifth of American children who read comic books or go to the movies find the superheroes just don't look like them physically. That's got to be crushing for their self-esteem. Is this ok? Of course it isn't. More plus-sized superheroes, male and female, now!
I honestly don't mind, and this is coming from a Marvel and FF4 fan. The only thorny thing I can think of is that some of the interplay between him and Susan Storm will be lost if they aren't siblings anymore. Of course this could be rectified if they make her black as well, but I doubt they'd have the cojones to make two major characters black.
Personally, I'd like to see it, but why make a historically white character black when they could be introducing Falcon, Black Panther, Prowler, or even Miles Morales.
Personally, I'd like to see it, but why make a historically white character black when they could be introducing Falcon, Black Panther, Prowler, or even Miles Morales.
Here I was thinking that the actual reason for casting in a black man was because the movie going generation demographics has been shifting towards darker colors. I mean, big producers had to eventually acknowledge the fact that people going to the movies are no longer the same as the were 30 years ago.
Do you honestly think that companies like Fox consider "politically correct" reasons as valid arguments to make these sort changes? Silly people. And majority of you live in homeland of capitalism, you should know better.
Do you honestly think that companies like Fox consider "politically correct" reasons as valid arguments to make these sort changes? Silly people. And majority of you live in homeland of capitalism, you should know better.
People are forgetting the true issue right now and that is they didn't cast a Native American as Warpath in Days of Future Past. Now that's a problem.
Don't know if anyone has already mentioned it, but claiming the 'source material should be adapted correctly' thing bugs me. Does anyone stop to think that virtually all the primary superhero characters are white? Do we think about the reasons behind that? These characters were created in times when no one would even think to make them different ethnicities, and if they did it would have been a maaasive deal. Sure there are a few exceptions to the rule, but for the most part these character's ethnicities were just unthought default choices, like a racial equivalent to heteronormativity (theres probably a word for it...).
The choice for caucasian characters was not a calculated decision, but just standard 'this is what heros look like'; a basic and unthinking reaction due to the general ideology of the times. So, claiming that 'we must be true to the source material' is simply supporting the general ideology of the 60's.
Do you really think if these characters were being created now that they'd all be white? The reason why people kick up a fuss nowadays when POC characters are cast as white in adaptations is because they are rare enough as is, without converting them to just more white characters (Think Last Airbender and the Inuit, Tibetan etc whitewashing. The diversity on the show was pretty cool and the movie decimated that).
Pretty much, if the source material is a product of a (intentionally or not) racist mindset, then why claim it as something that needs supporting and faithful adapting?
The choice for caucasian characters was not a calculated decision, but just standard 'this is what heros look like'; a basic and unthinking reaction due to the general ideology of the times. So, claiming that 'we must be true to the source material' is simply supporting the general ideology of the 60's.
Do you really think if these characters were being created now that they'd all be white? The reason why people kick up a fuss nowadays when POC characters are cast as white in adaptations is because they are rare enough as is, without converting them to just more white characters (Think Last Airbender and the Inuit, Tibetan etc whitewashing. The diversity on the show was pretty cool and the movie decimated that).
Pretty much, if the source material is a product of a (intentionally or not) racist mindset, then why claim it as something that needs supporting and faithful adapting?
I don't really follow comic books, my knowledge of the fantastic four extends about as far as the recent movies and what I can remember of a cartoon which used to be on and both of these have been somewhat overshadowed by the x-men however I do know that johnny storm is supposed to be brother to susan storm, adoption seems like a more reasonable route to take if the film makers do decide that Johnny must absolutely be black since having a genetic throwback would probably take too much explaining and doing so may feel a little out of place, to be completely honest I think adoption is very nearly an unreasonable idea for similar reasons, its saving grace being that people are likely to come to this conclusion on their own and may not need a scene explaining either one of the two were adopted. I should probably quote mrgalactus' post but ive already begun writing and can't be bothered to find it. I have however already found a post reguarding a black bond and assure you that I will be getting to that at some point.
Ive noticed that some people have been commenting about the fact that one of the god's in thor was played by someone who was black. once again Ive never really been a big follower of the comics but was always a big fan of myths and legends when I was in school so I actually did initially find myself wondering what people who did not typically look like norseman were doing in asgaurd but the issue was quickly put to rest by my sister who pointed out that they were supposed to be gods and could look however they wanted. this got me thinking, their home is not even a part of our planet, why is it that they should have looked like those who chose to worship and revere them?
Finally.
Ive noticed that some people have been commenting about the fact that one of the god's in thor was played by someone who was black. once again Ive never really been a big follower of the comics but was always a big fan of myths and legends when I was in school so I actually did initially find myself wondering what people who did not typically look like norseman were doing in asgaurd but the issue was quickly put to rest by my sister who pointed out that they were supposed to be gods and could look however they wanted. this got me thinking, their home is not even a part of our planet, why is it that they should have looked like those who chose to worship and revere them?
Finally.
Im not certain that a black bond would be a problem, I don't really see the idea as being silly and to be honest his character, as far as I am aware, could translate fairly well no matter the actor, of course changing them to a lady bond might be pushing the boat out a little too far when you could always just write a bond like story and give them a different name if you really did want a female lead for such a film.Private Custard said:
Why does it need to be accurate to the source material? Would it not be interesting to see a different take on the same idea? The thing about the source material is that, it's already there, so why not have a new twist on that idea?Shadowstar38 said:
Scott Pilgrim differs quite significantly between the comic and the film especially in the last third, which I feel only adds to the series. While admittedly all of the characters were the same nationality (bar Matthew Patel who was portrayed by a British-born American rather than a straight-up Yank) I feel it's a similar thing. If you're going to make a new version of something, why not go nuts and change things up a bit, make it interesting.
Logical arguments vs emotional arguments.
Logically it's not a big deal to change the race of a fictional character, but it's considerably easier to feel that way when you're not invested in the franchise in question. You could race-swap alot of things and I wouldn't raise an eye-brow. If you gave Max Payne that treatment I'd be conflicted, it might not quite be the thing I know and love anymore. I'd still play it, obviously... how many games let you slow-motion-dive around corners with guns blazing?
That's how I see it, and why I'm not about to assume the worst in anybody. Why would you assume the worst in somebody anyway?... It's a shitty thing to do.
Logically it's not a big deal to change the race of a fictional character, but it's considerably easier to feel that way when you're not invested in the franchise in question. You could race-swap alot of things and I wouldn't raise an eye-brow. If you gave Max Payne that treatment I'd be conflicted, it might not quite be the thing I know and love anymore. I'd still play it, obviously... how many games let you slow-motion-dive around corners with guns blazing?
That's how I see it, and why I'm not about to assume the worst in anybody. Why would you assume the worst in somebody anyway?... It's a shitty thing to do.
Ok, so let's play execs for a moment (minus the massive paychecks)
I'm sitting here at the table and my opinion is that Johnny has always had his look in the comics and fans will generally respond best to sticking to the source material.
While I am not against the idea of casting Michael in the role it then means we should cast a black actress as Sue Storm. I know you can have mixed race siblings but we need people to easily identify them as brother and sister. That doesn't raise too many issues either but I'm trying to find the reason why the studio needs to go through all this for the sake of deviating from the source material.
Could we not recast one of the other two?
My reply to myself...
Well, aside from Michael being a good actor we would start introducing diversity into the predominately white superhero genre. And yes, we'd have to cast Sue as african-american too but that just adds to the impact of what we are doing here and I am sure it's for the better.
Sure we could recast Reed or The Thing but Reeds look is even more key to the character as the typical reclusive bumbling professor and The Thing is an orange rock.
Cynical Me...
Oh yeah, plus the internet backlash would generate so much talk about the movie on message boards and forums on the internet.
Free publicity anyone?
So in conclusion, let it ride and see how it turns out.
I'm sitting here at the table and my opinion is that Johnny has always had his look in the comics and fans will generally respond best to sticking to the source material.
While I am not against the idea of casting Michael in the role it then means we should cast a black actress as Sue Storm. I know you can have mixed race siblings but we need people to easily identify them as brother and sister. That doesn't raise too many issues either but I'm trying to find the reason why the studio needs to go through all this for the sake of deviating from the source material.
Could we not recast one of the other two?
My reply to myself...
Well, aside from Michael being a good actor we would start introducing diversity into the predominately white superhero genre. And yes, we'd have to cast Sue as african-american too but that just adds to the impact of what we are doing here and I am sure it's for the better.
Sure we could recast Reed or The Thing but Reeds look is even more key to the character as the typical reclusive bumbling professor and The Thing is an orange rock.
Cynical Me...
Oh yeah, plus the internet backlash would generate so much talk about the movie on message boards and forums on the internet.
Free publicity anyone?
So in conclusion, let it ride and see how it turns out.
If the performance is good and the movie is solid then I can dig it. On the other hand if the performance is bad and the movie is worse then spitefully listing all of the myriad ways that the director broke from canon, including changing the ethnicity of certain characters is my revenge for them wasting both my money and my time. Case in point while I was initially wary of Marvel casting Idris Elba in the role of Heimdall I do believe that he silenced a lot of his critics with the strength of his performance.
See, this is where I disagree; even if the character isn't obviously defined by his race (even though Johnny is a typical spoiled white fratboy, but that aside), race is still an important part of one's identity, and even more so; how people look at you. Please don't expect that the audience will get the same character understanding and connotations from a black character and a white one.MrGalactus said:
I just disagree that it's offensive to dismiss an actor if he have a significant trait that doesn't match the role. There are so many actors and so many roles, so one should try to make the best matches.MrGalactus said:
Oh, and name value would be like when having a DiCaprio or Depp in a film; big stars sell tickets.