So apparently JonTron is a racist

[CaitSeith]

it is horrible that someone can't be honest with his views and not lose a job that he clearly can do sufficiently enough if not better than whoever may replace him.

Do you even know who will be replacing him? How do you know Jon did a better job? And he didn't lose a job. The game is already finished and ready to be shipped with JonTron's voice intact (until it gets patched out).

 

[shrekfan246]

but I just had to say it is horrible that someone can't be honest with his views and not lose a job that he clearly can do sufficiently enough if not better than whoever may replace him. I'm no fan of this guy but the few videos I have watched of his have been very amusing and well done. I don't care if he's a nazi supporter or whatever. I just want good content being made.

You know that's generally how all employment opportunities go, right?

Like, if I were working at Wal-Mart, I wouldn't be able to stand outside of Wal-Mart shouting about how people should shop elsewhere because Wal-Mart supports child labor [http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/lwp/NLC_childlabor.html] and actually expect to keep my job.

Likewise, if I were, say, a teacher, I shouldn't expect to be able to say how awesome it would be if the age of consent was lowered to 13 and, you guessed it, expect to keep my job.

Actions have consequences, especially when you're a person who's in the public eye. I know the fact that Trump got elected has made everyone believe that they can just say whatever they want now and nobody can hold them accountable for it, but that's just straight up not true.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I just had to say it is horrible that someone can't be honest with his views and not lose a job that he clearly can do sufficiently enough

I don't think that's horrible at all. We're judged by those we associate with. If I went to the pub with the ex-lead singer of the Lost Prophets, people would assume I was okay with the idea of paedophilia (I went for low-hanging fruit here, my next example is much more subtle); if I went on a date with Hitler, to the cinema, people would probably think I wasn't overly bothered by the whole gassing the Jews thing.

People are tarnished (or raised up) by those they associate with, because you're tacitly endorsing their behaviour to some degree. Sure, they could have left him in and just added a line in the credits to state that they in no way endorse his weird racist views, but no one reads the credits.

Or, maybe, they felt strongly, on a personal level, that the guy they initially hired to do the thing, was not the guy who subsequently said bad things, and realised they'd made a mistake.

Not sure who Lost Prophets are, but no, I wouldn't assume that just because of something a friend of yours did, that you yourself are guilty by association. That's illogical.

I do think that they put either their personal feelings or those of their fans before the integrity of their work, which is my issue here.

it is horrible that someone can't be honest with his views and not lose a job that he clearly can do sufficiently enough if not better than whoever may replace him.

Do you even know who will be replacing him? How do you know Jon did a better job? And he didn't lose a job. The game is already finished and ready to be shipped with JonTron's voice intact (until it gets patched out).

From what I've seen of the guy he is very funny and clearly was sufficient until this incident occurred. That's all one needs to know. If he would have still had the job today without this incident, clearly he was fitting enough.

but I just had to say it is horrible that someone can't be honest with his views and not lose a job that he clearly can do sufficiently enough if not better than whoever may replace him. I'm no fan of this guy but the few videos I have watched of his have been very amusing and well done. I don't care if he's a nazi supporter or whatever. I just want good content being made.

You know that's generally how all employment opportunities go, right?

Like, if I were working at Wal-Mart, I wouldn't be able to stand outside of Wal-Mart shouting about how people should shop elsewhere because Wal-Mart supports child labor [http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/lwp/NLC_childlabor.html] and actually expect to keep my job.

Likewise, if I were, say, a teacher, I shouldn't expect to be able to say how awesome it would be if the age of consent was lowered to 13 and, you guessed it, expect to keep my job.

Actions have consequences, especially when you're a person who's in the public eye. I know the fact that Trump got elected has made everyone believe that they can just say whatever they want now and nobody can hold them accountable for it, but that's just straight up not true.

This is not what happened here, wallmart would have needed to go dig up a podcast you had with some dudes online, which doesn't ever happen since most walmart shoppers don't really care about this stuff. Same as far as the vast majority of platformer game fans go as well.

Ages of consent vary by nation so it depends on where you live. Where I grew up it was 15 so I don't think it's that absurd. What is absurd is to lose your job because of an opinion that doesn't even relate to, never mind prevent you from accomplishing, your job.


I'm not sure what action this is supposed to be that he is guilty for. You can't just fire people for having wrong-think in their brains and maintain the image of a rational actor.

 

[shrekfan246]

I'm not sure what action this is supposed to be that he is guilty for. You can't just fire people for having wrong-think in their brains and maintain the image of a rational actor.

Except you can. That's the whole point.

You may not like it, but employers are well within their rights to fire people who are openly and loudly going to give them a bad image. And, despite you apparently not seeming to think so, shouting about how black people are genetically predisposed toward committing crimes and how immigrants need to be stopped so that the purity of "white culture" can be preserved, gives a bad name to those who continue to willingly associate with you.

Like it or not, Jon is a celebrity. Celebrities need to watch what they say in public forums if they don't want to face consequences for their actions. This has happened to Hollywood actors for literal decades. Hell, it's the entire reason Tim Allen has been throwing huge shitfits lately about how Hollywood is exactly like 1930's Germany.

 

[Avnger]

I'm not sure what action this is supposed to be that he is guilty for. You can't just fire people for having wrong-think in their brains and maintain the image of a rational actor.

Publicly espousing racist talking points then essentially doubling down on them (again publicly) is not "wrong-think in their brains." If JonTron had only been thinking those things, nothing would ever have happened. Instead, he *took an action* to spread those views over the entire internet. Everyone else is allowed to then also *take an action* in response; otherwise, you are removing others' ability to partake in free speech.

The stupidity one spouts in public has societal consequences. "Free speech" does not mean free from repercussions.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I'm not sure what action this is supposed to be that he is guilty for. You can't just fire people for having wrong-think in their brains and maintain the image of a rational actor.

Publicly espousing racist talking points then essentially doubling down on them (again publicly) is not "wrong-think in their brains." If JonTron had only been thinking those things, nothing would ever have happened. Instead, he *took an action* to spread those views over the entire internet. Everyone else is allowed to then also *take an action* in response; otherwise, you are removing others' ability to partake in free speech.

The stupidity one spouts in public has societal consequences. "Free speech" does not mean free from repercussions.

If he was so bad, someone would have already complained about him discriminating against them. When you have everyone suddenly realize that he thinks these things after so many years of following the guy, I think it is pretty safe to say he isn't taking any sort of action that affects anything of import on behalf of his beliefs.


I really don't like this obsession with consequences but if you want to frame this issue through consequences, I guess you can interpret me as not saying that the game developer who removed him from the game doesn't have the right to do so or shouldn't be allowed to do it, but that as a consequence of these consequences, I have now begun to consider them much more lowly than in the past. Certainly, you can be free to compromise your games to preserve your politics and your social group, but I am a gamer and not a civil rights activist so I primarily care about weather games are being compromised or not.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I'm not sure what action this is supposed to be that he is guilty for. You can't just fire people for having wrong-think in their brains and maintain the image of a rational actor.

Publicly espousing racist talking points then essentially doubling down on them (again publicly) is not "wrong-think in their brains." If JonTron had only been thinking those things, nothing would ever have happened. Instead, he *took an action* to spread those views over the entire internet. Everyone else is allowed to then also *take an action* in response; otherwise, you are removing others' ability to partake in free speech.

The stupidity one spouts in public has societal consequences. "Free speech" does not mean free from repercussions.

If he was so bad, someone would have already complained about him discriminating against them. When you have everyone suddenly realize that he thinks these things after so many years of following the guy, I think it is pretty safe to say he isn't taking any sort of action that affects anything of import on behalf of his beliefs.


I really don't like this obsession with consequences but if you want to frame this issue through consequences, I guess you can interpret me as not saying that the game developer who removed him from the game doesn't have the right to do so or shouldn't be allowed to do it, but that as a consequence of these consequences, I have now begun to consider them much more lowly than in the past. Certainly, you can be free to compromise your games to preserve your politics and your social group, but I am a gamer and not a civil rights activist so I primarily care about weather games are being compromised or not.

Suddenly realize? You know he got fired from Grumps partly due to shit like this, right?

And if Jon's already-paid-for voice acting in Yooka-Laylee being removed "compromises" the game, so be it. I mean, they cut Peter Dinklage completely out of Destiny and it did okay.

 

[Baffle]

Not sure who Lost Prophets are, but no, I wouldn't assume that just because of something a friend of yours did, that you yourself are guilty by association. That's illogical.

Lost Prophets are/were a band very popular around the early 2000s, but maintained popularity, mostly with youths, into this decade. The lead singer, Ian Watkins, was convicted of raping a child under 13, and intent to rape a one-year-old. The reason he isn't being picked up to do this year's Christmas duet with Kylie is that no one wants to be associated with a massive paedophile and rapist (also, he's serving a 30-year prison sentence). Same reasoning applies, though obviously Mr Tron is a racist, not a rapist. Or a paedophile.

 

[Saelune]

I'm not sure what action this is supposed to be that he is guilty for. You can't just fire people for having wrong-think in their brains and maintain the image of a rational actor.

Publicly espousing racist talking points then essentially doubling down on them (again publicly) is not "wrong-think in their brains." If JonTron had only been thinking those things, nothing would ever have happened. Instead, he *took an action* to spread those views over the entire internet. Everyone else is allowed to then also *take an action* in response; otherwise, you are removing others' ability to partake in free speech.

The stupidity one spouts in public has societal consequences. "Free speech" does not mean free from repercussions.

If he was so bad, someone would have already complained about him discriminating against them. When you have everyone suddenly realize that he thinks these things after so many years of following the guy, I think it is pretty safe to say he isn't taking any sort of action that affects anything of import on behalf of his beliefs.


I really don't like this obsession with consequences but if you want to frame this issue through consequences, I guess you can interpret me as not saying that the game developer who removed him from the game doesn't have the right to do so or shouldn't be allowed to do it, but that as a consequence of these consequences, I have now begun to consider them much more lowly than in the past. Certainly, you can be free to compromise your games to preserve your politics and your social group, but I am a gamer and not a civil rights activist so I primarily care about weather games are being compromised or not.

Suddenly realize? You know he got fired from Grumps partly due to shit like this, right?

And if Jon's already-paid-for voice acting in Yooka-Laylee being removed "compromises" the game, so be it. I mean, they cut Peter Dinklage completely out of Destiny and it did okay.

As I said elsehwhere, I am pretty sure Jon quit, not got fired. Based on many many many things he has said throughout Game Grumps, he expressed alot of dissatisfaction with being a LPer, and alot of talk about New York and focusing on his channel again. I could be wrong, but it makes alot of sense in hindsight.

And apparently he was a voice because he backed enough money for it rather than it being a job, so it seems a bit less fair since they are sort of reneging on a promise rather than firing someone they dont want to work with.

 

[PainInTheAssInternet]

... they cut Peter Dinklage completely out of Destiny and it did okay.

To be fair, Dinklage was replaced because his performance showed he really couldn't be bothered to put a decent effort in. Or maybe it was just bad direction and they couldn't afford to bring him in to re-record lines. For this reason, if I were ever in charge of such a creative project, I would never rely on star power. Finding an unknown with the same capabilities would be cheaper and likely more rewarding in the end should you be known as the one who found the next star. When his name being attached to the project was outweighed by the audience complaining about how bad his performance was, I can see why they did it.

Snip

People would think the severity of Lost Prophet dude's crimes weren't severe enough for the friend, though. It would make people think they were okay with it. When you are friends with someone, it does reflect upon you what they do. To put it more directly, would you hire Lost Prophet's dude to work on your project if you thought he would do a great job?

Having a teacher lament the age of consent is very relevant to their job and would inevitably make parents very uneasy about a teacher being attracted to their very young child.

It's not as if JonTron's views are obscure. They are very widely known and will likely crop up whenever one thinks about him. His public image is now directly tied to those words. It's not being fired for just thinking it, it's being fired for what he said publicly. When your job has public relations being integral to it, you can bet the public's perception of you is going to affect your career.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

And apparently he was a voice because he backed enough money for it rather than it being a job, so it seems a bit less fair since they are sort of reneging on a promise rather than firing someone they dont want to work with.

Ehh, if Playtronics refunds his $5000, they're in the clear.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

People would think the severity of Lost Prophet dude's crimes weren't severe enough for the friend, though. It would make people think they were okay with it. When you are friends with someone, it does reflect upon you what they do. To put it more directly, would you hire Lost Prophet's dude to work on your project if you thought he would do a great job?

Having a teacher lament the age of consent is very relevant to their job and would inevitably make parents very uneasy about a teacher being attracted to their very young child.

It's not as if JonTron's views are obscure. They are very widely known and will likely crop up whenever one thinks about him. His public image is now directly tied to those words. It's not being fired for just thinking it, it's being fired for what he said publicly. When your job has public relations being integral to it, you can bet the public's perception of you is going to affect your career.

As I said I did not know who the Lost Prophet guy even is. If we are in a plane of him having served his sentence (assuming the above description is correct) and him being back in society, sure, why not hire him. Job skills are not a popularity contest and if we wish to say nobody should ever hire anyone who has done a heinous crime then might as well execute everyone the second we convict them.


I don't get where you or the parents got that the teacher would be attracted to the students from. In my part of the world it's more about the rights of the students and the freedom they deserve rather than adults preying on them. It's about thinking of students as mature enough to be able to make these types of choices. If you ask me, it's more absurd to let 16 year olds drive than have sex. This is a puritanism issue masquerading as "protecting the children from pervs".


Again, if nobody knew of this issue up to now (I do not follow this guy but from what I read, most responses hinted at NOT being aware of his views) then it couldn't have been that bad. Sure, now it might be more focal to him as a person, but that in itself is an injustice in my book so just going along with it is not right. If you didn't want this to be associated with his name and coat everything he does, well, you shouldn't have made a big deal out of it for all this time. No, what I see is a deliberate attempt to plaster it over everything he does, and then claim that everything he does has this plastered on it. If you didn't want that to be the case, you shouldn't have done the plastering. Ultimately, again, I don't even care for anything in this topic which is why I never initially responded but this very see-through attempt at destroying a guy you disagree with politically just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[CaitSeith]

snip

Destroy? Do you realize that the people who asked for his voice to be removed are the Kickstart backers? You know, the ones who financed the game in the first place? Sorry, but making the choice of not buying or watching videos from someone they dislike isn't even close to want him destroyed. Call back when he gets swatted, doxxed or hacked, and I'll complain along you.

 

[Saelune]

And apparently he was a voice because he backed enough money for it rather than it being a job, so it seems a bit less fair since they are sort of reneging on a promise rather than firing someone they dont want to work with.

Ehh, if Playtronics refunds his $5000, they're in the clear.

Did they? I certainly hope they did.

 

[Avnger]

And apparently he was a voice because he backed enough money for it rather than it being a job, so it seems a bit less fair since they are sort of reneging on a promise rather than firing someone they dont want to work with.

Ehh, if Playtronics refunds his $5000, they're in the clear.

Did they? I certainly hope they did.

This. JonTron's disgusting comments and his even worse shoddy attempts to back them up, more than justify his removal from the game by Playtronics. That said, he deserves every penny back that he paid in order to receive the cameo.

 

[PainInTheAssInternet]

Snip

I went back through to see how on earth my posts could have possibly given you the impression I was trying to destroy JonTron. The only post [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.948071-So-apparently-JonTron-is-a-racist?page=3#23927700] I made regarding him and not the Stormfronter stated that no one should have expected him to have insightful or even intelligent opinions given his public persona. I also think this of Adam Sandler. I think when people compliment Sandler for being intelligent (largely for using investor funds to go on massively overpaid vacations with his friends that breaks even because people eat shit and love it as long as it's branded shit), what they're really saying is "I'm stunned he's not as obnoxious and brain-dead as his persona implies."

Careers are a popularity contest to an extent. If you work at a company and make yourself known, the public will inevitably judge you and it will reflect on the company. They may indeed choose to fire you. They can also fire you if you don't fit in with your coworkers or make them uncomfortable. As for the Lost Prophets guy, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lostprophets#Watkins.27_arrest_and_band.27s_breakup_.282012.E2.80.9313.29] his charges do come up whenever discussions of the band come up. They changed the name of their band to avoid the association. Being a criminal is a serious issue when you're trying to find a job and leads to recidivism, but society in general tends to reserve special spots for pedophiles and people who defend them.

It was a discussion of the teachers lamenting the age of consent being higher than 13, not 16. I'm sure you can appreciate the difference. How does protecting them from an adult who has authority over them being sexually interested in them not constitute worthwhile consideration? You also talk about the freedom and rights the students have, are you talking about the freedom and right to choose to have sex with their teacher? That is a whole lot more complicated and morally dark than merely being a choice between two consenting and equal adults. The legal term "statutory rape" exists for that reason. We also see it as rather iffy when two adults get together when one has authority over the other.

Two core problems with your last paragraph.

1) They were made aware of his views and reacted accordingly, particularly when those views were made widely known. They have the right to choose not to associate themselves with him when it will affect them.

2) You are saying JonTron should have been able to express his views in public (notably in this case that rich black people commit more crime than white people and the white nation should be protected from immigrants) without being publicly criticized or consequence. This is a very common position for some reason; freedom of expression for one side and only them. Why shouldn't he be criticized for this? Why should someone be forced to associate themselves with him? Particularly in the current times of Trump et al making these such hot-button issues?

I'll add a third that is incidental. It's okay to admit you care. Being apathetic does not make anyone cooler or more rational by default. This is not just aimed at you, but anyone who posts and ends it with "I don't care."

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I went back through to see how on earth my posts could have possibly given you the impression I was trying to destroy JonTron. The only post [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.948071-So-apparently-JonTron-is-a-racist?page=3#23927700] I made regarding him and not the Stormfronter stated that no one should have expected him to have insightful or even intelligent opinions given his public persona. I also think this of Adam Sandler. I think when people compliment Sandler for being intelligent (largely for using investor funds to go on massively overpaid vacations with his friends that breaks even because people eat shit and love it as long as it's branded shit), what they're really saying is "I'm stunned he's not as obnoxious and brain-dead as his persona implies."

Not referring to you specifically, just the air I sensed about this issue. It isn't just this one instance, either.

Careers are a popularity contest to an extent. If you work at a company and make yourself known, the public will inevitably judge you and it will reflect on the company. They may indeed choose to fire you. They can also fire you if you don't fit in with your coworkers or make them uncomfortable. As for the Lost Prophets guy, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lostprophets#Watkins.27_arrest_and_band.27s_breakup_.282012.E2.80.9313.29] his charges do come up whenever discussions of the band come up. They changed the name of their band to avoid the association. Being a criminal is a serious issue when you're trying to find a job and leads to recidivism, but society in general tends to reserve special spots for pedophiles and people who defend them.

It was a discussion of the teachers lamenting the age of consent being higher than 13, not 16. I'm sure you can appreciate the difference. How does protecting them from an adult who has authority over them being sexually interested in them not constitute worthwhile consideration? You also talk about the freedom and rights the students have, are you talking about the freedom and right to choose to have sex with their teacher? That is a whole lot more complicated and morally dark than merely being a choice between two consenting and equal adults. The legal term "statutory rape" exists for that reason. We also see it as rather iffy when two adults get together when one has authority over the other.

You are stating that this is how things are, I am arguing that irrespective of that, such a state of affairs is unfair and unjust. I am not disputing that these things indeed are as you say, just that they being so is wrong. As long as you concede that I have no issue here.

Yeah, consent is very morally dark and has a lot of gray area. The approach of treating everyone as vulnerable as the most vulnerable is overly-sheltered and denies the mature ones their deserved freedom. How much you weigh that against the protection of the immature ones is an interesting subject. Oh and again, I never once mentioned teachers and students engaging in relations. That has issues regarding abuse of power. You can think that students should be allowed to make their own choices without you yourself having any personal steaks in their plight. I think trying to make it seem as though only some kind of abhorrent creep would want to even entertain this issue is the type of thing that shuts down all dialogue and rational debate. The law doesn't seem to care if you're 13 or 16, which is the issue. If you're underage it's statutory rape regardless. Even if you look at it from the overly protectionist angle it's still illogical because statutory rape is a single issue but it should be a bigger crime to do that to someone who hasn't even undergone puberty yet, so even from that angle the law makes little sense.

Two core problems with your last paragraph.

1) They were made aware of his views and reacted accordingly, particularly when those views were made widely known. They have the right to choose not to associate themselves with him when it will affect them.

2) You are saying JonTron should have been able to express his views in public (notably in this case that rich black people commit more crime than white people and the white nation should be protected from immigrants) without being publicly criticized or consequence. This is a very common position for some reason; freedom of expression for one side and only them. Why shouldn't he be criticized for this? Why should someone be forced to associate themselves with him? Particularly in the current times of Trump et al making these such hot-button issues?

I'll add a third that is incidental. It's okay to admit you care. Being apathetic does not make anyone cooler or more rational by default. This is not just aimed at you, but anyone who posts and ends it with "I don't care."

Again, when we have this overly consequence-centric perspective, I will simply say that the type of consequences that they chose to lever, will have consequences of their own and now due to their not standing behind their art at cost of public image, I think of them as a much lesser team of developers.

He should be criticized and debated and you can say anything you want about him in podcasts of your own, nobody is saying people shouldn't do this. Just like how he didn't (as far as I know) continue his rant with "and so I believe all rich black people should be profiled" then going on to things beyond just speech is overkill.

What I meant with not caring was that I did not especially care. I care insofar as I see another human being that is being persecuted unjustly, I have no dogs in this fights. I was not a big fan of his, having seen only mayne 10 or so total vids (which I did enjoy, granted) and I never played banjo kazooey or however you spell it and wasn't expecting the successor they're making with bated breath so I am about as impartial as one can be without being completely ignorant of the parties.

 

[Dizchu]

Lost Prophets are/were a band very popular around the early 2000s, but maintained popularity, mostly with youths, into this decade. The lead singer, Ian Watkins, was convicted of raping a child under 13, and intent to rape a one-year-old. The reason he isn't being picked up to do this year's Christmas duet with Kylie is that no one wants to be associated with a massive paedophile and rapist (also, he's serving a 30-year prison sentence). Same reasoning applies, though obviously Mr Tron is a racist, not a rapist. Or a paedophile.

I actually brought up a similar point in response to the "rational skeptic" crowd claiming that "embracing diversity" means not holding anybody accountable for the things they say. They're fine with what Jon said because they're personally comfortable with what he said, they outright say that he didn't do anything wrong or that he's been taken out of context. Pedophilia on the other hand is a lot harder to defend (or so I thought until the Milo Yiannopoulos incident), so it's useful to really hammer home the point.

Everybody draws a line when it comes to acceptable things to say publicly and for Playtonic it was nonsense that bordered on white nationalism. I don't see what's so controversial about that.

 

[VarietyGamer]

Jon Tron is awesome and I agree with everything he says 100%, I would go further. Except I could put it more eloquently. Jon is no debater and fumbles his ideas when put on the spot.

Even Jon stated its ok that playtonic dropped his voice acting. No big deal. The big deal arises from the fact that the playtonic devs publicly insulted their own paying consumers when some of them expressed support for jon and then went on to ban their accounts when some expressed their consumer right to ask how to initiate a refund. In my country (Australia) this kind of corporate conduct is highly illegal.

Jon's 3 million subs overlap greatly with this game's fanbase. This was a mistake on their end. It should have been done out of public sight.

 

[Exley97_v1legacy]

Jon Tron is awesome and I agree with everything he says 100%, I would go further. Except I could put it more eloquently. Jon is no debater and fumbles his ideas when put on the spot.

Then please eloquently explain what it is you think JonTron was trying to say, and why you think it is 100% right, and what points you'd go further on.