So apparently JonTron is a racist

[Dejawesp]

Oh c'mon, Jontron isn't racist. Not in the slightest. I listened to the whole thing and I got the points he was trying to get across. He just did it really, really badly. VERY BADLY. It's clear he's not used to debate and fell into a lot of verbal traps just trying to get his point across because Destiny was ignoring the valid points he was making. It made him double down to try to make him understand what he was trying to say, and instead he overstated the points he was making and turned its tone to sounding extreme.

I mean, I agree with what Jon was trying to say, but he made me cringe a few times because he was just trying too hard. Jon was perfectly reasonable in the other podcasts he was in with Sargon. Jon is clearly just used to having conversations with people that already agree with him, and that caused him to flounder when in actual debate. I've experienced the exact same thing when talking to my brother about religion, but then failed to be persuasive when talking to my actually religious parents. It happens, and I hope to hear Jon learn from this and grow from it. I know he has it in him.

What valid points?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

His statements don't seems that crazy, most of them are pretty sensible, and none of them strike me as particularly awful or wrong.

I mean, except the ones nobody can find a source for, the ones which blatantly ignore past events, the ones that blatantly ignore current events, and the ones that are provably wrong, sure.

Some hundred years ago Catholics were seen as fucking Crocodiles coming out of the sea to eat the children.

http://i.imgur.com/IlYzh1g.jpg

The more things change...

Wonk-blog is your FBI source?

He also thinks that article supports his argument.

EDIT: Incidentally, to google a specific site, type "site:URL.com". For example, putting site:FBI.gov will search the FBI site specifically.

There aren't particularly large numbers of Muslims emigrating to Europe either, but don't let that stop you.

How about we don't let people into our country if the hate the people inhabiting them to begin with? Regardless of which sky figure they worship.

You don't see a fire and think, "You know what would put this fire out? More petrol!"

...which is why I'm typically on the side of "so don't panic". I mean, some immigrants are going to commit crimes. They're people, people commit crimes. A vast, overwhelming majority of immigrants aren't going to commit crimes. Because they're people, and the vast, overwhelming majority of people don't commit anything more than the odd petty crime, like jaywalking, or torrenting movies, or smoking weed.

Panics about demographic shifts are laughable. Like, if Pew Research Center's projections are correct, the number of Muslims in Europe by 2050 will almost double! *gasp!* *shock!* *horror!* Pew's expecting them to be a whopping...10% of the population. Up from 6% in 2010. Might as well declare the EU a Caliphate now to save time. [/sarcasm]

And the number of Muslims living in the US is expected to double as well! What unprecedented level of evil-and-not-misrepresented-in-anyway Sharia Law will the Muslim population on 2050 inflict on the United States of America...while being all of 2% of the population. Clearly, we must suspend all immigration and refugees from these countries while continuing to violate said country's sovereignty by launching bombing raids, drone strikes, and strike teams into their territory that almost never end up killing more civilians than terrorists. That will make them like us more.

 

[Zontar]

He also thinks that article supports his argument.

You know my comment is right there for people to read what I actually said right? I know context is a thing that's dead at this point given the fact the subject underlying this entire thread is even a thing, but come on I spelt out the fact it was hard as hell to find anything that wasn't directly relating to JonTron no matter what combination of words I used.

EDIT: Incidentally, to google a specific site, type "site:URL.com". For example, putting site:FBI.gov will search the FBI site specifically.

Unfortunately unlike Google before the purge (or whatever has made it impossible to find anything these days) the FBI doesn't have an easy word search feature that allows you to take a combination of key words to look through their bottomless pit of raw data.

 

[Signa]

Oh c'mon, Jontron isn't racist. Not in the slightest. I listened to the whole thing and I got the points he was trying to get across. He just did it really, really badly. VERY BADLY. It's clear he's not used to debate and fell into a lot of verbal traps just trying to get his point across because Destiny was ignoring the valid points he was making. It made him double down to try to make him understand what he was trying to say, and instead he overstated the points he was making and turned its tone to sounding extreme.

I mean, I agree with what Jon was trying to say, but he made me cringe a few times because he was just trying too hard. Jon was perfectly reasonable in the other podcasts he was in with Sargon. Jon is clearly just used to having conversations with people that already agree with him, and that caused him to flounder when in actual debate. I've experienced the exact same thing when talking to my brother about religion, but then failed to be persuasive when talking to my actually religious parents. It happens, and I hope to hear Jon learn from this and grow from it. I know he has it in him.

What valid points?

See video posted on first page.

 

[The Lunatic]

Snip

Or... We could just not bring people into our country who don't accept our culture. What obligation do we have, exactly?

We're not talking about crime here. We're talking about their opinions.

You're seriously suggesting that 8% (And rapidly growing) of the population hating homosexuals won't have any affect on the laws we pass? That's just naive, and there's absolutely no benefit for us to take the risk.

The issues we face in regards to an ageing population and skill shortage are entirely due to previous governments failing to prepare us for the future. To continue to import people who are completely incompatible is just foolhardy and isn't a reliable long term plan.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

He also thinks that article supports his argument.

You know my comment is right there for people to read what I actually said right? I know context is a thing that's dead at this point given the fact the subject underlying this entire thread is even a thing, but come on I spelt out the fact it was hard as hell to find anything that wasn't directly relating to JonTron no matter what combination of words I used.

EDIT: Incidentally, to google a specific site, type "site:URL.com". For example, putting site:FBI.gov will search the FBI site specifically.

Unfortunately unlike Google before the purge (or whatever has made it impossible to find anything these days) the FBI doesn't have an easy word search feature that allows you to take a combination of key words to look through their bottomless pit of raw data.

...which is why google searches the FBI.gov site, not whatever database search the FBI has built it.

Of course, if you knew what keywords you need, Bing is good for that. Yes, yes, I know, Bing, but nonetheless, if you knew how to properly search a database before google existed, you could use Bing effectively.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Oh, cry me a river. The dude can't argue his way out of a paper bag, but he's not a racist.

Somehow I'm not shocked you don't think it's racist to consider this a white country or that it isn't racist to talk about how whites should avoid becoming a minority.

Or his response about why it isn't good enough to be American and that whiteness is something worth preserving? He can't even say why he thinks a white majority is worth preserving. He tries to ask why not and dodges answering it himself.

And you think it's totally not racist to think that race influences culture when questioned on why the focus shouldn't be on assimilation instead of immigration?

And of course we can't read into the questions he refuses to answer

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Oh c'mon, Jontron isn't racist. Not in the slightest. I listened to the whole thing and I got the points he was trying to get across. He just did it really, really badly. VERY BADLY. It's clear he's not used to debate and fell into a lot of verbal traps just trying to get his point across because Destiny was ignoring the valid points he was making. It made him double down to try to make him understand what he was trying to say, and instead he overstated the points he was making and turned its tone to sounding extreme.

I mean, I agree with what Jon was trying to say, but he made me cringe a few times because he was just trying too hard. Jon was perfectly reasonable in the other podcasts he was in with Sargon. Jon is clearly just used to having conversations with people that already agree with him, and that caused him to flounder when in actual debate. I've experienced the exact same thing when talking to my brother about religion, but then failed to be persuasive when talking to my actually religious parents. It happens, and I hope to hear Jon learn from this and grow from it. I know he has it in him.

Do tell what the valid point is in saying that it's fine for people to want to keep whites as a majority? After acknowledging that assimilation wasn't the sole thing he cared about there.

 

[Signa]

Oh c'mon, Jontron isn't racist. Not in the slightest. I listened to the whole thing and I got the points he was trying to get across. He just did it really, really badly. VERY BADLY. It's clear he's not used to debate and fell into a lot of verbal traps just trying to get his point across because Destiny was ignoring the valid points he was making. It made him double down to try to make him understand what he was trying to say, and instead he overstated the points he was making and turned its tone to sounding extreme.

I mean, I agree with what Jon was trying to say, but he made me cringe a few times because he was just trying too hard. Jon was perfectly reasonable in the other podcasts he was in with Sargon. Jon is clearly just used to having conversations with people that already agree with him, and that caused him to flounder when in actual debate. I've experienced the exact same thing when talking to my brother about religion, but then failed to be persuasive when talking to my actually religious parents. It happens, and I hope to hear Jon learn from this and grow from it. I know he has it in him.

Do tell what the valid point is in saying that it's fine for people to want to keep whites as a majority? After acknowledging that assimilation wasn't the sole thing he cared about there.

Bolded for emphasis.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Oh c'mon, Jontron isn't racist. Not in the slightest. I listened to the whole thing and I got the points he was trying to get across. He just did it really, really badly. VERY BADLY. It's clear he's not used to debate and fell into a lot of verbal traps just trying to get his point across because Destiny was ignoring the valid points he was making. It made him double down to try to make him understand what he was trying to say, and instead he overstated the points he was making and turned its tone to sounding extreme.

I mean, I agree with what Jon was trying to say, but he made me cringe a few times because he was just trying too hard. Jon was perfectly reasonable in the other podcasts he was in with Sargon. Jon is clearly just used to having conversations with people that already agree with him, and that caused him to flounder when in actual debate. I've experienced the exact same thing when talking to my brother about religion, but then failed to be persuasive when talking to my actually religious parents. It happens, and I hope to hear Jon learn from this and grow from it. I know he has it in him.

Do tell what the valid point is in saying that it's fine for people to want to keep whites as a majority? After acknowledging that assimilation wasn't the sole thing he cared about there.

Bolded for emphasis.

Well that was a wonderful demonstration. Welp, I suppose if we plug our ears we can pretend anyone's a saint.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Snip

Or... We could just not bring people into our country who don't accept our culture. What obligation do we have, exactly?

We're not talking about crime here. We're talking about their opinions.

You're seriously suggesting that 8% (And rapidly growing) of the population hating homosexuals won't have any affect on the laws we pass? That's just naive, and there's absolutely no benefit for us to take the risk.

The issues we face in regards to an ageing population and skill shortage are entirely due to previous governments failing to prepare us for the future. To continue to import people who are completely incompatible is just foolhardy and isn't a reliable long term plan.

...unless you're going to pay, and pay lots, for people to have babies, you're going to need to shore up those population numbers somehow. And if the US is any indication, after a couple generations, support for LGBT rights amounts Muslim natives should be roughly equal to support for LGBT rights amongst Protestants, and both are rising.

And your numbers are just fucking useless on top of that. I mean, let's say 8% of Europe is Muslim. Obviously, that 8% of the population doesn't universally hate homosexuals, if nothing else because some of them are gay. On top of that, 11% of Brits think homosexuality should be banned. Meanwhile, Muslims only make up 4.8% of the British population, and based on a survey with shoddy methodology, only half of them think homosexuality should be illegal. So that leaves, what, over 78% of the "doesn't think homosexuality should be legal" crowd unaccounted for? Should we suspend travel and immigration from Britain based on these numbers?

 

[fractal_butterfly]

It seems to me, that the fascists are on the rise on either side of the spectrum, be it left or right.

Well, the same essay identifies other attributes of fascism which are pretty exclusive to the right, like traditionalism or the exploitation of a fear of difference, so in a technical sense not really.. but I see what you're getting at. "Totalitarianism" or "anti-liberalism" might be a better term.

Even then though. Really?

It seems to me that if there is a crisis or call for action on the left, it is a call for action against fascism (or proto-fascism). You could say that my own post is based on an alarmist proclamation that a harmless internet personality is somehow stirring up actual literal fascism. However, that "crisis" is based partly on a recognition that you can't counter anti-intellectual or anti-rationalist positions using reason.

So, let's take a more neutral example. Radical Islamists who think that terrorism is justified (despite the fact that no traditional source of Islamic religious authority actually agrees) cannot be rationally debated or persuaded out of their position. Any attempt to engage with or debate them will simply give them airtime to declare a crisis and demand that the audience take action, and some people in the audience will agree regardless of what you bring to say they are wrong. That's why we don't debate or accommodate radical Islamists. We don't and shouldn't accept them as just another legitimate political position. It's not just proto-fascism or a fear of different opinions which motivates us to suppress radical Islamism but the immutability of that position to any kind of reasonable argument and the potentially devastating consequences of its spread.

Any anti-intellectual position is essentially the same. If someone literally doesn't care what is false but only what needs to be true to justify what they want to do to people. If someone is simply going to repeat the claim that there is a crisis, that immediate action is needed, that inaction is inherently wrong, that "your people" are under threat and you need to do something. If someone's whole narrative is based on an apocalyptic war between the "goodies" who need to heroically act right now without thinking about it and the "baddies", the betas and cucks who demand evidence and thus are secretly on the side of the invasive enemy, then that is really no different to the above. It may be slightly more subtle in the violent implications of its rhetoric, but it's still immutable to rational debate.

The final solution didn't happen because noone pointed out how obviously wrong all the Nazi ideology which made it necessary was. It happened because it literally didn't matter whether or not people pointed out how obviously wrong all the Nazi ideology which made it necessary was, because that same ideology told them that questions or fact-checking were treasonous when the German race was in an apocalyptic war for survival.

So you are basically agreeing with me?
Burning cars at a "peaceful" protest, because you don't get what you want, seems like a terrorist act to me. Burning a flag with "Free Speech" printed on it seems pretty anti-intellectual to me. In my opinion, the AntiFa ultra-left elements are as bad as right extremists and should be seen as on the same level of "dangerous to society".
Extremism, not matter what the reason for it might be, is never a good thing. Extreme positions only bear extreme counter positions. Without all the ridicule and emotional protests against Trump, he might have never been elected. The alt-right movement could only gain momentum due to their extreme counterparts on the left.
You can, no you have to, fight against other extremists without resorting to extremism yourself. Ban speech and parties, that are actually harmful to society. There are laws for this. Use the power of the state to oppose those elements. But don't act like them. Otherwise things only get worse. You can't fight fascism with fascism. You will only end up with fascism ;-)

 

[Fox12]

Oh, cry me a river. The dude can't argue his way out of a paper bag, but he's not a racist.

Somehow I'm not shocked you don't think it's racist to consider this a white country or that it isn't racist to talk about how whites should avoid becoming a minority.

Or his response about why it isn't good enough to be American and that whiteness is something worth preserving? He can't even say why he thinks a white majority is worth preserving. He tries to ask why not and dodges answering it himself.

And you think it's totally not racist to think that race influences culture when questioned on why the focus shouldn't be on assimilation instead of immigration?

And of course we can't read into the questions he refuses to answer

Yep. Gotta preserve the integrity of the white race.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Oh, cry me a river. The dude can't argue his way out of a paper bag, but he's not a racist.

Somehow I'm not shocked you don't think it's racist to consider this a white country or that it isn't racist to talk about how whites should avoid becoming a minority.

Or his response about why it isn't good enough to be American and that whiteness is something worth preserving? He can't even say why he thinks a white majority is worth preserving. He tries to ask why not and dodges answering it himself.

And you think it's totally not racist to think that race influences culture when questioned on why the focus shouldn't be on assimilation instead of immigration?

And of course we can't read into the questions he refuses to answer

Yep. Gotta preserve the integrity of the white race.

Because admitting someone is racist is uncomfortable and comfort trumps truth

 

[loa]

I don't see how you can draw any conclusion about someones character based on those 2 hours of jon trying to explain something badly and destiny saying he can't do that because "we're not talking about ___, we're only talking about the U.S". Over and over.

 

[Fox12]

Oh, cry me a river. The dude can't argue his way out of a paper bag, but he's not a racist.

Somehow I'm not shocked you don't think it's racist to consider this a white country or that it isn't racist to talk about how whites should avoid becoming a minority.

Or his response about why it isn't good enough to be American and that whiteness is something worth preserving? He can't even say why he thinks a white majority is worth preserving. He tries to ask why not and dodges answering it himself.

And you think it's totally not racist to think that race influences culture when questioned on why the focus shouldn't be on assimilation instead of immigration?

And of course we can't read into the questions he refuses to answer

Yep. Gotta preserve the integrity of the white race.

Because admitting someone is racist is uncomfortable and comfort trumps truth

You'll have to show me where he said something explicitly racist. Forgive me, but you do tend to be a tadbit...hyperbolic at times. What you hear, and what is said aren't always quite the same.

As far as I can tell, the most controversial thing he said was that white americans are in danger of becoming a minority, and they have a right to be concerned. He then claimed that there was a double standard, because the Japanese and French are allowed to take steps to preserve their ethnic culture, and white americans are not.

I think his opinion is woefully misinformed, but it's not racist. I simply think he's bad at articulating his opinion. He even said he's be fine with changing ethnic demographics if the immigrants enter the nation legally, and they integrate into american culture. Personally, I don't care about american culture, since culture is fluid anyway. As long as people value human rights and liberty, I don't care. There has been some debate about the success of muslim integration in europe, but that's an ideology, not a race. The thing is, immigration in Europe is quite different from immigration in the United States. Our immigrants are typically hispanic and catholic, not middle eastern and muslim. They've been very successful at integrating. Jon Tron seems to be mixing and confusing all of these issues into a kind of soup. He doesn't seem to really understand these issues very deeply at all. Predominantly, he seems to be reacting to social justice culture. I think he's terrible at debate, but looking at everything he's said up to now, labeling him a racist seems rather silly.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Oh, cry me a river. The dude can't argue his way out of a paper bag, but he's not a racist.

Somehow I'm not shocked you don't think it's racist to consider this a white country or that it isn't racist to talk about how whites should avoid becoming a minority.

Or his response about why it isn't good enough to be American and that whiteness is something worth preserving? He can't even say why he thinks a white majority is worth preserving. He tries to ask why not and dodges answering it himself.

And you think it's totally not racist to think that race influences culture when questioned on why the focus shouldn't be on assimilation instead of immigration?

And of course we can't read into the questions he refuses to answer

Yep. Gotta preserve the integrity of the white race.

Because admitting someone is racist is uncomfortable and comfort trumps truth

You'll have to show me where he said something explicitly racist. Forgive me, but you do tend to be a tadbit...hyperbolic at times. What you hear, and what is said aren't always quite the same.

As far as I can tell, the most controversial thing he said was that white americans are in danger of becoming a minority, and they have a right to be concerned. He then claimed that there was a double standard, because the Japanese and French are allowed to take steps to preserve their ethnic culture, and white americans are not.

I think his opinion is woefully misinformed, but it's not racist. I simply think he's bad at articulating his opinion. He even said he's be fine with changing ethnic demographics if the immigrants enter the nation legally, and they integrate into american culture. Personally, I don't care about american culture, since culture is fluid anyway. As long as people value human rights and liberty, I don't care. There has been some debate about the success of muslim integration in europe, but that's an ideology, not a race. The thing is, immigration in Europe is quite different from immigration in the United States. Our immigrants are typically hispanic and catholic, not middle eastern and muslim. They've been very successful at integrating. Jon Tron seems to be mixing and confusing all of these issues into a kind of soup. He doesn't seem to really understand these issues very deeply at all. Predominantly, he seems to be reacting to social justice culture. I think he's terrible at debate, but looking at everything he's said up to now, labeling him a racist seems rather silly.

Do you happen to believe if someone magically never says anything explicit that they're not racist? I understand it if your view is 'Don't rock the boat, let's play ostrich as much as possible', but really.

Anyways on the more explicit stuff, which ones do you need citation on? The white country one? Do you need me to cite every time in the 2 hour video he said that shit?

Do you need me to dig up the part about race influences culture? I mean, bit of a pain to have to be your memory for you, but if you need that one... This would be the question after his talk about demographic shift being okay. Because the natural question after that is why the focus on race. Which was asked.

I'd say pretending he isn't a racist with his talk of 'starting stock' and so on is just ignoring the obvious.

 

[Fox12]

Do you happen to believe if someone magically never says anything explicit that they're not racist? I understand it if your view is 'Don't rock the boat, let's play ostrich as much as possible', but really.

Racism is a pretty serious accusation. So yes, if you want anyone to take it seriously, you'll actually have to support you claim.

Anyways on the more explicit stuff, which ones do you need citation on? The white country one? Do you need me to cite every time in the 2 hour video he said that shit?

I heard him say something about white nations protecting their culture. By which he obviously meant white majority nations, like many in Europe, in the same way that you would say Japan is an asian nation. He even made that point. Given that america was 70% white not so long ago, I see what he meant. He clearly wasn't trying to say that non-whites have no place in america. And he clarified, as I already mentioned, that he was more concerned about culture then race. He said he was fine with changing ethnic demographics. Again, it was a careless use of words, but it's not explicitly racist.

Do you need me to dig up the part about race influences culture?

It does. Are you implying that different ethnicities and nationalities don't often have unique sub cultures? I thought this was common knowledge. Sometimes those cultures even influence the larger culture. I fail to see how this is even controversial.

I mean, bit of a pain to have to be your memory for you, but if you need that one... This would be the question after his talk about demographic shift being okay. Because the natural question after that is why the focus on race. Which was asked.

He was voicing concern that immigrants from certain nations may not share the values of the nation as a whole. This can sometimes be a legitimate concern, such as in Europe right now. He was right, there are riots and problems in european nations as a result of this. I'm not sure why he was extending this to hispanic immigration from mexico, but I see what he was trying to say. It was stupid and uninformed, but again, I don't think the dudes a racist.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Oh, cry me a river. The dude can't argue his way out of a paper bag, but he's not a racist.

Somehow I'm not shocked you don't think it's racist to consider this a white country or that it isn't racist to talk about how whites should avoid becoming a minority.

Or his response about why it isn't good enough to be American and that whiteness is something worth preserving? He can't even say why he thinks a white majority is worth preserving. He tries to ask why not and dodges answering it himself.

And you think it's totally not racist to think that race influences culture when questioned on why the focus shouldn't be on assimilation instead of immigration?

And of course we can't read into the questions he refuses to answer

Yep. Gotta preserve the integrity of the white race.

The fuck is the "white race"? We talking Germanic, Scottish, Anglo-Saxon, Mediterranean, Slavic?

 

[Fox12]

Oh, cry me a river. The dude can't argue his way out of a paper bag, but he's not a racist.

Somehow I'm not shocked you don't think it's racist to consider this a white country or that it isn't racist to talk about how whites should avoid becoming a minority.

Or his response about why it isn't good enough to be American and that whiteness is something worth preserving? He can't even say why he thinks a white majority is worth preserving. He tries to ask why not and dodges answering it himself.

And you think it's totally not racist to think that race influences culture when questioned on why the focus shouldn't be on assimilation instead of immigration?

And of course we can't read into the questions he refuses to answer

Yep. Gotta preserve the integrity of the white race.

The fuck is the "white race"? We talking Germanic, Scottish, Anglo-Saxon, Mediterranean, Slavic?

Blonde hair and blue eyes. Preferably a long flowing beard that flutters in the wind. A tail. preferably their full blooded saiyan, but since the planet blew up half saiyans are tolerable.