Many African-Americans (in the mainstream, at least) are concerned over perceived slights still being committed against them by local law enforcement and government. Interests like those have nothing to do with "ethnic displacement".Fox12 said:
So apparently JonTron is a racist
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And men commit more crimes than women. See anyone can just throw out statistics to back up their political views, the key is figuring out why the statistics are the way they are. When you throw out these claims without any analysis it just makes you look reactionary and it makes you look like you're trying to single particular groups out.Fox12 said:
I never said nor implied that they just as bad ass Jon. Either way, I would not want to be stuck in a room any of the three. Jon I would constantly do a multilayered cross between a pimp slap and a ***** slap for such stupidity.Cowabungaa said:
Really? Dan and Arin seem to be genuinely great guys without such ignorant predilections. Not sure how it'd be terrible to be in a room with them. Jon I'd get pretty uncomfortable around as well now, though.CoCage said:
I'm not accusing you of being reactionary, I'm accusing Jon. The thing is, he takes the higher crime stats of blacks as an indication that they're a threat instead of as something that needs addressing (because if he did he'd be focusing instead on the root causes instead of repeatedly saying "hey they're just hard truths, man").Fox12 said:
His stream with Sargon was almost as bad, with him ranting about the "fucking commulists".
You are willfully ignoring 90% of my argument. Those people we are talking about are not fighting some righteous war against an evil oppressor. They are throwing a tantrum and resort to violence if reality does not bow to their will. This is not even close to the example of George Washington and the war of independence. They are endangering the society they are in their mind trying to protect with their thoughtless actions. Because as I said: their extremism and violence will spawn, or rather has already spawned equivalent counter reactions. They are the ones constantly feeding the alt-right and other extremist groups. And they don't even realize it.evilthecat said:
Also, US universities are at the moment the last place to look in, when you try to find intellectual discussion, open discourse and challenged beliefs and world views.
Regarding the burning of the flag being free speech: that is true but does nothing to this argument. You can spout a lot of bullshit, even if you are free to do so. And suggesting to abolish free speech is a very fascist thing to do, if you ask me. But the irony seems to be lost at them.
I should make this more detailed, Arin I more or less loss interests in and respect. Ironically, part of it was because of the split that happened between him and Jon. How he reacted to was just upload the next episodes with Dan like nothing happened. Bow that is not a knock against Dan, but I just don't find the guy interesting. The other reason in Arin's case was because there were many times when the man had no idea what fuck he was talking about it. Whether it was the game themselves, story, lore, or just proper game design. And if it wasn't that, it was him sometimes insulting people for liking things that he doesn't. Or vice versa. Like MB, Nostalgia Critic, or Spoony, if you're gonna go out of your way to insult the people that supported and watch shows, then you can rightly fuck off.Cowabungaa said:
That's why we should take in less refugees here, where it's more expensive to house people (as you said, Sweden would collapse if we took in 1.6-2 million refugees. Libanon and Jordan don't, since they don't have a welfare state), and give some of the money we save to UNHCR.Cowabungaa said:
What are you talking about? Syria was a deeply tribalistic country even before the war started; the fact that oppression from Assad has kept the clan tendencies largely in check doesn't mean they aren't there, or that the attitudes that foster them are dead. Source: https://www.fairobserver.com/region/middle_east_north_africa/tribal-factor-syria-rebellion/
Iraqi attitudes towards Western values are also very quaint: 91% favor Sharia laws, according to the Pew poll conducted a few years back. Do you think the attitudes are much better in Syria? Source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/
The fact that no terror attacks have occured in the Netherlands means nothing. There haven't been any islamic terror attacks in Sweden that have killed anyone except the perpertrator this millenium, yet there are a good number of muslims going of to fight for the Islamic State.
Also, the Netherlands are not great at integration. From the 2008 OECD report:
"The current immigrant population is a diverse group, and labour market outcomes differ significantly by country of origin. The most important origin country is Turkey, followed by Morocco. Both of these countries were the source of low-qualified labour migration
until the mid-1970s, followed by family reunification, often also with very low-educated
spouses. This latter group has the most difficulties on the labour market, especially immigrant women ? particularly in the important market for part-time work, where they often have to compete with higher skilled natives."
"Another significant group of immigrants have come from the former Dutch colony
Suriname, and from the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba. The latter are Dutch citizens by
birth but are nevertheless regarded as immigrants in Dutch statistics because they originate
from outside of the Netherlands, and their labour market outcomes are also well below
those of the native-born."
Source: http://www.oecd.org/migration/mig/41636274.pdf
The main reason integration isn't working out is low education; this strengthens clan tendencies and religious extremism which would otherwise dissipate. It is true religious extremism is not the biggest problem with taking in large amounts of immigrants from the third world; but religious extremism easily follow from the other big problems.
Yeah, I don't think Jon is a racist. However, it's pretty obvious that he's ill prepared for a debate. Even when I've seen him talking to people he agrees with, he seems to have some trouble with communicating what he means.Fox12 said:
But whatever. I watch Jontron for his videos. Suddenly feeling like watching his cover of Fireworks right about now.
I guess this is why John doesn't do things live often. The more time he has, the more creative he can be. [That and i'm guessing he has writers,editors, Etc.] Without that time, he's like a fish floping around hoping to land back in the water.Saltyk said:
At least he tried to be mature about it. Make's him better than many people.
I'll share in evilthecat's request for a citation to the claim "arrests are proportional to the percentages of violent crimes committed." That's a separate point. What JonTron asserted was that WEALTHY blacks commit more crime than poor whites. I wasn't arguing against the general crime statistics. To continue my actual point, ignoring that JonTron appears to have misinterpreted the study TheSpyIsASpyWDZ posted a link to, I ask what point is there to assert that wealthy blacks commit more crime in the context of this debate beyond suggesting, "See? Even with money/opportunity these blacks have an inclination toward crime..."?Fox12 said:
Systemic racism is more than just shitty policing and draconian legislation. As a quick "for example", I'll cite Freddie Gray. If you look back at his history, you'll see a young man who suffered lead poisoning as a child (damaging him mentally and developmentally for life while predisposing him toward "increased aggression") due to shitty low-income housing then later had his monetary reparation stolen by predatory lawyers. If you look further back than that and ponder why he ended up in shitty-housing with lead paint, you come across a history covenants where owners selling homes to blacks in certain areas was forbidden, redlining where the FHA refused to insure any homes a black person bought, and predatory lending further contributing to urban decay while herding blacks into ghettoes where children like Gray were being poisoned as late as 1992.
History has consequences.
Also, you're being vague on the culture point (not even providing an example or describing what particular aspect) while not assigning "weight" to the causes you're ascribing to the statistic. I have no idea to what degree you believe causes like systemic racism and poverty are to blame, yet you apparently really really want to make sure I know that blacks really do commit the most crime. Really. For real.
If you believe "black culture" is mostly at fault, that's a different argument than an even 3-way split or however you slice it.
If even you admit his position lacks nuance, why am I required to assume it has a rational, more flattering basis than prejudice (your thinking "racist" is too harsh a condemnation aside)?
We're not randomly spewing factoids at each other. Any statistic cited in an argument is in service of a thesis being forwarded whether you and Jon admit it, or even realize it, or not. Context matters. Furthermore, I'm not impressed by political incorrectness that's curiously never directed at the group the person speaking it belongs to.
Let me ask: what is "black culture" to you? Moreover, what is "black culture" a consequence of? Did black mistrust of police occur in a vacuum, for example?
The "whiteness" bit is inference on my part. I'll get to that.
For starters, there's a difference between a percentage dipping below double digits and angst over merely being the largest plurality rather than the majority. Never mind that I'm side-eying your "many african american groups are unhappy..." claim skeptically because it's irrelevant regardless.
Even you call JonTron's stance "dumb", so I'm left to speculate over your motives for defending it or attempting to assure me it's not as bad as I'm interpreting. The assumption underlying all of this angst is "America is ours (white people's) more than everyone else's." White discomfort isn't something to be overcome in order to assimilate into a diverse American experience. White people don't need to assimilate at all. White is core and default. 'Culture' is a smokescreen.
Not seeing fellow citizens as American because they're foreign-born and brown in a goddamn melting pot is pretty goddamned racist to me. All of this hand-wringing over "culture" and "assimilation" is a smokescreen to conceal a racial discomfort.
I'd have to see what you're attributing to "black culture" and where you're drawing those dividing lines. I'll express what I'm wary of and say that if your characterization of "black culture" begins and ends with rap music and gang violence, this will be a very tedious discussion. Not saying this is where you're going, just what I'm honestly afraid of due to precedent.
"Culture exists" is a lot broader than "Black culture contributes of prevalent violence" when you haven't even established a definition or where this culture arose from. Cultures exist, yes, but I'm unclear about what you're picturing when you see the word versus what I'm picturing.
I'd point out that any historical discussion of African-American culture would start at "slavery", but that'd be guilt-shaming white people or something.
No, I didn't call you a racist. My point, however, is that I'm not required to give you or Jon the benefit of the doubt. I don't know y'all from a brick in the wall. By telling you how your argument appeared to me, I'm signaling, "Hey, I find it curious that the tip of the spear on Fox12's post, the very first words, is "The African American community does commit more crime then other communities in the United States." and am wondering why he keeps circling back to it." giving you a chance to clarify.
Because, again bluntly, it seems to me like you're paying lip-service. Like, "Yeah, there's systemic racism and whatnot, but what's the REAL issue is blacks [pardon 'black culture']. JonTron has a point there!" That's what I'm second-guessing.
And you're not even willing to consider giving him the benefit of the doubt that he's not a hateful person? No one will ever be a saint if that's how you go about treating people.The Decapitated Centaur said:
Honestly dude, I'm about 10 hours of audio more informed about Jontron as a person and his beliefs than you are, assuming you haven't watched both of the streams with him on Sargon's channel. 10 hours, plus the countless hours of information that he and I have both consumed to understand just what the hell he was trying to say to Destiny. All that is assuming you even spent the time to listen to that 2 hour abomination of a debate that sparked this thread. I don't think you're qualified to comment on what Jontron actually believes, because I don't think I'M qualified to comment on what Jontron believes, and I'm going to assert that I'm way more informed on him than you are.
I think Fox12's reply shortly after yours to me was a good response to what I could say if I felt this was worth much more time than what I've already given it. I'm certain Jon's not racist, and it's a shame you're more concerned about crucifying him than actually getting to the bottom of his character.
It seems impossible to hold anything approaching a moderate opinion in this political climate, nearly everyone who wants to share their point of view seems inclined to push toward the most extreme ends of either side less they be ignored.
All I'll say on thus issue is that while I hope Jontron refrains from entering into such political avenues in the future I won't condemn him too harshly when all I really see is someone attempting to comment on an issue they really don't understand (on the internet of all places!!) And being too stubborn to admit their own ignorance on the matter when challenged.
All I'll say on thus issue is that while I hope Jontron refrains from entering into such political avenues in the future I won't condemn him too harshly when all I really see is someone attempting to comment on an issue they really don't understand (on the internet of all places!!) And being too stubborn to admit their own ignorance on the matter when challenged.
What exactly are white interests? Destiny was right to ask clarifying questions to try and figure out Jon's thinking, but JonTron (like everything else) refused to fully reveal what he believed. He made a brief mention that white people were more likely to support libertarianism but later walked back from libertarianism that he didn't even believe. And it was leftist Destiny that gave the robust defence of comparative advantage in the free market that would have made Ron Paul proud. So what is it?
The problem with JonTron is he would never extend his arguments to their logical conclusion. But I've seen a lot of his arguments before because I read DailyStormer every now and then just to see what the white supremacists are up to. And when he talk about 'white displacement' but then halts and fails to elucidate what that means, or says 'we all know why black youth commit more crimes' after Destiny gives a whole ton of environmental factors... I don't know what he means because he never says. The DailyStormer would fill in the 'white displacement' blank with white genocide due to miscegenation. Run for the hills because white people are getting bred out of the country and are race mixing or adopting black babies, etc. (And depending on your penchant for conspiracy, it may all be a Jewish plot to wipe out white people.) Or 'why black people commit more crimes' is because of an inherent moral failing of the black people. That's how those blanks are normally filled.
But Jon never follows to the next conclusion, so I see three options. 1) He likes the buzzwords of protest politics, but his thinking is not rigorous enough to see the logical conclusions of his argumentation (Ignorance) 2) He's self-aware that filling in the blank will make him seem like a racist, hence all the dismissive laughter and leaving things vague and jumping topics. (Cagy) Or 3) He doesn't care if people think 2, but he's laughing and refusing to explain because he is condescending and believes Destiny is a lost cause as a delusional cuck, helping to eradicate his own race. (Dailystormer variety).
Or maybe there's a fourth option; I don't know because Jon didn't explain.
He went
If A, then B
A
But refused to say the "therefore B", and I've seen his "If A, then B, A," again and again from the Dailystormer ilk, and it's "therefore B'. If Jon doesn't think so, I wish he wouldn't have avoided Destiny's very probing questions. His gene pool comment makes me suspicious.
Also, Jon was completely ignorant of past American prejudice towards eastern and southern Europeans. No clue at all.
That's their big controversy? They made fun of the shitty walkthrough they were using?CoCage said:
That explains why several of NormalBoots members unexpectedly Twitted "we usually don't talk about politics, but people has been asking and we want to make clear we aren't racists" in these past days. I didn't know about this video at the time, but now it makes sense.
This is the internet... draw attention to someone for doing something 'bad' or something your fans think is 'bad' means you are going to get a lot of those fans going after that person with harassment and abuse... in this case it looks like an accident through lack of thinking things through, but some people do this very deliberately to try and shut down people they don't like.Johnny Novgorod said: