So apparently JonTron is a racist

Saltyk

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Fox12 said:
Dizchu said:
Fox12 said:
It's a good thing I addressed that very point. There was nothing in that post that was reactionary.
I'm not accusing you of being reactionary, I'm accusing Jon. The thing is, he takes the higher crime stats of blacks as an indication that they're a threat instead of as something that needs addressing (because if he did he'd be focusing instead on the root causes instead of repeatedly saying "hey they're just hard truths, man").

His stream with Sargon was almost as bad, with him ranting about the "fucking commulists".
Yeah, debate isn't his strong suit...
Yeah, I don't think Jon is a racist. However, it's pretty obvious that he's ill prepared for a debate. Even when I've seen him talking to people he agrees with, he seems to have some trouble with communicating what he means.

But whatever. I watch Jontron for his videos. Suddenly feeling like watching his cover of Fireworks right about now.
 

Irwin126

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Saltyk said:
Fox12 said:
Dizchu said:
Fox12 said:
It's a good thing I addressed that very point. There was nothing in that post that was reactionary.
I'm not accusing you of being reactionary, I'm accusing Jon. The thing is, he takes the higher crime stats of blacks as an indication that they're a threat instead of as something that needs addressing (because if he did he'd be focusing instead on the root causes instead of repeatedly saying "hey they're just hard truths, man").

His stream with Sargon was almost as bad, with him ranting about the "fucking commulists".
Yeah, debate isn't his strong suit...
Yeah, I don't think Jon is a racist. However, it's pretty obvious that he's ill prepared for a debate. Even when I've seen him talking to people he agrees with, he seems to have some trouble with communicating what he means.

But whatever. I watch Jontron for his videos. Suddenly feeling like watching his cover of Fireworks right about now.
I guess this is why John doesn't do things live often. The more time he has, the more creative he can be. [That and i'm guessing he has writers,editors, Etc.] Without that time, he's like a fish floping around hoping to land back in the water.

At least he tried to be mature about it. Make's him better than many people.
 

Dazzle Novak

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Fox12 said:
The African American community does commit more crime then other communities in the United States. Just like caucasian americans commit more crimes then individuals from various asian nations. Those are just statistics. Furthermore, arrests are proportional to the percentages of violent crimes committed. Those are simply the facts and data. How you feel about it is irrelevant. What matters is what this data actually means. Obviously race and genetics don't predispose you to committing crime. That would be ridiculous, and anyone who makes that claim actually is racist. However, it does raise the question about what this data means. One argument is that there exists systemic racism. That african americans are arrested as a result of bias in the law enforcement and judicial system. I think there is likely truth to this, but it does not explain disparities o its own. Another argument is that poverty is more likely to result in crime, and that since certain minorities don't enjoy the wealth and power of many caucasian americans, this results in disproportionate crime rates. I think there is likely some truth to this as well, but it does not explain why african american communities still commit disproportionate crime even independent of their financial success when compared to their peers across racial lines. Part of this may be systemic racism, but it can't account for the total disparity. The final argument would be an argument of sub cultures that have developed in the united states. Essentially, that certain cultures develop that encourage an increase in crime rates. This can be the result of racial differences in a society if schisms are formed. I think there's some truth to this as well, but again, it can't account for the total disparity. I think its a combination of all of the above. I think Jon Trons facts were wrong, but given his prior conversation with Sargon, this appears to be what he was trying to articulate.
I'll share in evilthecat's request for a citation to the claim "arrests are proportional to the percentages of violent crimes committed." That's a separate point. What JonTron asserted was that WEALTHY blacks commit more crime than poor whites. I wasn't arguing against the general crime statistics. To continue my actual point, ignoring that JonTron appears to have misinterpreted the study TheSpyIsASpyWDZ posted a link to, I ask what point is there to assert that wealthy blacks commit more crime in the context of this debate beyond suggesting, "See? Even with money/opportunity these blacks have an inclination toward crime..."?

Systemic racism is more than just shitty policing and draconian legislation. As a quick "for example", I'll cite Freddie Gray. If you look back at his history, you'll see a young man who suffered lead poisoning as a child (damaging him mentally and developmentally for life while predisposing him toward "increased aggression") due to shitty low-income housing then later had his monetary reparation stolen by predatory lawyers. If you look further back than that and ponder why he ended up in shitty-housing with lead paint, you come across a history covenants where owners selling homes to blacks in certain areas was forbidden, redlining where the FHA refused to insure any homes a black person bought, and predatory lending further contributing to urban decay while herding blacks into ghettoes where children like Gray were being poisoned as late as 1992.

History has consequences.

Also, you're being vague on the culture point (not even providing an example or describing what particular aspect) while not assigning "weight" to the causes you're ascribing to the statistic. I have no idea to what degree you believe causes like systemic racism and poverty are to blame, yet you apparently really really want to make sure I know that blacks really do commit the most crime. Really. For real.

If you believe "black culture" is mostly at fault, that's a different argument than an even 3-way split or however you slice it.

I agree, Jons position was without nuance, especially when speaking about America, which is a true melting pot.
If even you admit his position lacks nuance, why am I required to assume it has a rational, more flattering basis than prejudice (your thinking "racist" is too harsh a condemnation aside)?

Culture is what Jon was talking about, though. African Americans do commit more crimes then their peers across all racial demographic lines. Those are the facts, regardless of how politically correct you feel they are. Again, that's not caused by race itself, but it is probably the result of the things I listed above.
We're not randomly spewing factoids at each other. Any statistic cited in an argument is in service of a thesis being forwarded whether you and Jon admit it, or even realize it, or not. Context matters. Furthermore, I'm not impressed by political incorrectness that's curiously never directed at the group the person speaking it belongs to.

Let me ask: what is "black culture" to you? Moreover, what is "black culture" a consequence of? Did black mistrust of police occur in a vacuum, for example?

I also don't remember him saying "whiteness" determines "american-ness." What he said is that white americans have a right to be concerned about the fact that they are becoming a smaller demographic since they are less able to pursue their own self interest politically. Personally, I couldn't care less about this issue. But he is correct. Every group in america is concerned about their political makeup and power in america. Do you think this is unique to some caucasian americans? Many african american groups are unhappy to go from roughly 12 to 7 percent of the population, since it impairs their ability to seek their own self interest. It's power politics. Its dumb, but its there. Any group, across any line, wants more of a voice in politics. Any demographic shift that takes that away is going to make that group uncomfortable. This is simply acknowledging human nature.
The "whiteness" bit is inference on my part. I'll get to that.

For starters, there's a difference between a percentage dipping below double digits and angst over merely being the largest plurality rather than the majority. Never mind that I'm side-eying your "many african american groups are unhappy..." claim skeptically because it's irrelevant regardless.

Even you call JonTron's stance "dumb", so I'm left to speculate over your motives for defending it or attempting to assure me it's not as bad as I'm interpreting. The assumption underlying all of this angst is "America is ours (white people's) more than everyone else's." White discomfort isn't something to be overcome in order to assimilate into a diverse American experience. White people don't need to assimilate at all. White is core and default. 'Culture' is a smokescreen.

Not seeing fellow citizens as American because they're foreign-born and brown in a goddamn melting pot is pretty goddamned racist to me. All of this hand-wringing over "culture" and "assimilation" is a smokescreen to conceal a racial discomfort.

It does. Are you implying that different ethnicities and nationalities don't often have unique sub cultures? I thought this was common knowledge. Sometimes those cultures even influence the larger culture. I fail to see how this is even controversial.

Its not perfect, but to pretend that these dividing lines don't exist within culture is frankly silly. African Americans living in today's society don't identify by whatever nation their ancestors were taken from. They identify as African American.
I'd have to see what you're attributing to "black culture" and where you're drawing those dividing lines. I'll express what I'm wary of and say that if your characterization of "black culture" begins and ends with rap music and gang violence, this will be a very tedious discussion. Not saying this is where you're going, just what I'm honestly afraid of due to precedent.

"Culture exists" is a lot broader than "Black culture contributes of prevalent violence" when you haven't even established a definition or where this culture arose from. Cultures exist, yes, but I'm unclear about what you're picturing when you see the word versus what I'm picturing.

I'd point out that any historical discussion of African-American culture would start at "slavery", but that'd be guilt-shaming white people or something.

And here we are. It always comes down to this in the end, doesn't it? I'm a racist.

Which is funny, because I actually disagree with Jon on most of his points. I think he was wrong, and I mostly agreed with the other guy. Jon clearly lost the debate. But I don't think Jon Tron is a racist, so I'm racist I guess. At least your not quick to jump to conclusions.
No, I didn't call you a racist. My point, however, is that I'm not required to give you or Jon the benefit of the doubt. I don't know y'all from a brick in the wall. By telling you how your argument appeared to me, I'm signaling, "Hey, I find it curious that the tip of the spear on Fox12's post, the very first words, is "The African American community does commit more crime then other communities in the United States." and am wondering why he keeps circling back to it." giving you a chance to clarify.

Because, again bluntly, it seems to me like you're paying lip-service. Like, "Yeah, there's systemic racism and whatnot, but what's the REAL issue is blacks [pardon 'black culture']. JonTron has a point there!" That's what I'm second-guessing.
 

Signa

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The Decapitated Centaur said:
Signa said:
The Decapitated Centaur said:
Signa said:
Oh c'mon, Jontron isn't racist. Not in the slightest. I listened to the whole thing and I got the points he was trying to get across. He just did it really, really badly. VERY BADLY. It's clear he's not used to debate and fell into a lot of verbal traps just trying to get his point across because Destiny was ignoring the valid points he was making. It made him double down to try to make him understand what he was trying to say, and instead he overstated the points he was making and turned its tone to sounding extreme.

I mean, I agree with what Jon was trying to say, but he made me cringe a few times because he was just trying too hard. Jon was perfectly reasonable in the other podcasts he was in with Sargon. Jon is clearly just used to having conversations with people that already agree with him, and that caused him to flounder when in actual debate. I've experienced the exact same thing when talking to my brother about religion, but then failed to be persuasive when talking to my actually religious parents. It happens, and I hope to hear Jon learn from this and grow from it. I know he has it in him.
Do tell what the valid point is in saying that it's fine for people to want to keep whites as a majority? After acknowledging that assimilation wasn't the sole thing he cared about there.
Bolded for emphasis.
Well that was a wonderful demonstration. Welp, I suppose if we plug our ears we can pretend anyone's a saint.
And you're not even willing to consider giving him the benefit of the doubt that he's not a hateful person? No one will ever be a saint if that's how you go about treating people.

Honestly dude, I'm about 10 hours of audio more informed about Jontron as a person and his beliefs than you are, assuming you haven't watched both of the streams with him on Sargon's channel. 10 hours, plus the countless hours of information that he and I have both consumed to understand just what the hell he was trying to say to Destiny. All that is assuming you even spent the time to listen to that 2 hour abomination of a debate that sparked this thread. I don't think you're qualified to comment on what Jontron actually believes, because I don't think I'M qualified to comment on what Jontron believes, and I'm going to assert that I'm way more informed on him than you are.

I think Fox12's reply shortly after yours to me was a good response to what I could say if I felt this was worth much more time than what I've already given it. I'm certain Jon's not racist, and it's a shame you're more concerned about crucifying him than actually getting to the bottom of his character.
 

King Billi

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It seems impossible to hold anything approaching a moderate opinion in this political climate, nearly everyone who wants to share their point of view seems inclined to push toward the most extreme ends of either side less they be ignored.

All I'll say on thus issue is that while I hope Jontron refrains from entering into such political avenues in the future I won't condemn him too harshly when all I really see is someone attempting to comment on an issue they really don't understand (on the internet of all places!!) And being too stubborn to admit their own ignorance on the matter when challenged.
 

Falling_v1legacy

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I also don't remember him saying "whiteness" determines "american-ness." What he said is that white americans have a right to be concerned about the fact that they are becoming a smaller demographic since they are less able to pursue their own self interest politically. Personally, I couldn't care less about this issue. But he is correct. Every group in america is concerned about their political makeup and power in america.
What exactly are white interests? Destiny was right to ask clarifying questions to try and figure out Jon's thinking, but JonTron (like everything else) refused to fully reveal what he believed. He made a brief mention that white people were more likely to support libertarianism but later walked back from libertarianism that he didn't even believe. And it was leftist Destiny that gave the robust defence of comparative advantage in the free market that would have made Ron Paul proud. So what is it?

The problem with JonTron is he would never extend his arguments to their logical conclusion. But I've seen a lot of his arguments before because I read DailyStormer every now and then just to see what the white supremacists are up to. And when he talk about 'white displacement' but then halts and fails to elucidate what that means, or says 'we all know why black youth commit more crimes' after Destiny gives a whole ton of environmental factors... I don't know what he means because he never says. The DailyStormer would fill in the 'white displacement' blank with white genocide due to miscegenation. Run for the hills because white people are getting bred out of the country and are race mixing or adopting black babies, etc. (And depending on your penchant for conspiracy, it may all be a Jewish plot to wipe out white people.) Or 'why black people commit more crimes' is because of an inherent moral failing of the black people. That's how those blanks are normally filled.

But Jon never follows to the next conclusion, so I see three options. 1) He likes the buzzwords of protest politics, but his thinking is not rigorous enough to see the logical conclusions of his argumentation (Ignorance) 2) He's self-aware that filling in the blank will make him seem like a racist, hence all the dismissive laughter and leaving things vague and jumping topics. (Cagy) Or 3) He doesn't care if people think 2, but he's laughing and refusing to explain because he is condescending and believes Destiny is a lost cause as a delusional cuck, helping to eradicate his own race. (Dailystormer variety).

Or maybe there's a fourth option; I don't know because Jon didn't explain.
He went
If A, then B
A

But refused to say the "therefore B", and I've seen his "If A, then B, A," again and again from the Dailystormer ilk, and it's "therefore B'. If Jon doesn't think so, I wish he wouldn't have avoided Destiny's very probing questions. His gene pool comment makes me suspicious.

Also, Jon was completely ignorant of past American prejudice towards eastern and southern Europeans. No clue at all.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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CoCage said:
I guess you don't know about their Sonic Adventure playthrough

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DethroningMoment/GameGrumps

Their Sonic Adventure playthrough has been pretty problematic overall. However, while you can argue Arin is entitled to his opinion on the needless amounts of bashing he gives to this 16 year old game, you can't argue things got a bit out of line. I'm talking, of course, about the Knuckles stages, where Arin and Dan check an walkthrough and proceed to mercilessly mock the writer for not giving the exact location of the emerald shards, never mind that said locations are randomized at every attempt on a given stage. Instead of wondering why the writer would make his walkthrough that way, the immediately assume he's just lazy. This comes to a point where Dan actually reads out the name of the writer in the episode and he and Arin proceed to mock him more, and most baffling of all, Dan jokes about their fans giving the writer of the walkthrough shit for writing said walkthrough back in 2004. Guess what happened, on the same day even. They were quick to delete the episode and re-upload a version with the name bleeped out (PIZZA!), but by that time the damage had already been done. I know Arin and Dan are good people, but in this particular case they were way out of line.
Nothing further.
That's their big controversy? They made fun of the shitty walkthrough they were using?
 

CaitSeith

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That explains why several of NormalBoots members unexpectedly Twitted "we usually don't talk about politics, but people has been asking and we want to make clear we aren't racists" in these past days. I didn't know about this video at the time, but now it makes sense.
 

WindKnight

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Johnny Novgorod said:
CoCage said:
I guess you don't know about their Sonic Adventure playthrough

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DethroningMoment/GameGrumps

Their Sonic Adventure playthrough has been pretty problematic overall. However, while you can argue Arin is entitled to his opinion on the needless amounts of bashing he gives to this 16 year old game, you can't argue things got a bit out of line. I'm talking, of course, about the Knuckles stages, where Arin and Dan check an walkthrough and proceed to mercilessly mock the writer for not giving the exact location of the emerald shards, never mind that said locations are randomized at every attempt on a given stage. Instead of wondering why the writer would make his walkthrough that way, the immediately assume he's just lazy. This comes to a point where Dan actually reads out the name of the writer in the episode and he and Arin proceed to mock him more, and most baffling of all, Dan jokes about their fans giving the writer of the walkthrough shit for writing said walkthrough back in 2004. Guess what happened, on the same day even. They were quick to delete the episode and re-upload a version with the name bleeped out (PIZZA!), but by that time the damage had already been done. I know Arin and Dan are good people, but in this particular case they were way out of line.
Nothing further.
That's their big controversy? They made fun of the shitty walkthrough they were using?
This is the internet... draw attention to someone for doing something 'bad' or something your fans think is 'bad' means you are going to get a lot of those fans going after that person with harassment and abuse... in this case it looks like an accident through lack of thinking things through, but some people do this very deliberately to try and shut down people they don't like.
 

Imp_Emissary

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Well, I think Jon explained his view quite clearly.

"We've gotten rid of discrimination in our western countries. If you don't think we've gotten rid of discrimination, you're living in a fantasy land."

*Jon bitches about white people being discriminated against*

You got to pay attention to see it, but he was helpful to make it quite clear for those who do. =w= b
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Okay so I looked up this JonTron guy. Turns out I had heard him before, but not heard of him. He's apparently the voice of Celestia in the Two Best Sisters Play shorts. Who knew? Who cares?

Aside from that he literally seems like as has-been. He was a Grump(that's right, right?) and then left and hasn't done anything since. Why do we care, why is his opinion relevant, let alone 10 pages worthy? He was a dude from a YouTube channel at one time, like 5 years ago.

 

BrawlMan

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Johnny Novgorod said:
That's their big controversy? They made fun of the shitty walkthrough they were using?
It's the principle of the matter. While theirs actions are not as bad Jon's, but it's a case of they should have known better. The guy's name they mentioned face harassment over a FAQ he made over 15 years ago. The psychotic fans who did most defintely are blame, but Arin and Danny have to share the responsibility of what they did.



Windknight said:
This is the internet... draw attention to someone for doing something 'bad' or something your fans think is 'bad' means you are going to get a lot of those fans going after that person with harassment and abuse... in this case it looks like an accident through lack of thinking things through, but some people do this very deliberately to try and shut down people they don't like.
Thank you. I remember the early days of Youtube suffered so much from this. I know it's still goes on, but back between 2007-2010 some user was trying to harass or shutdown other users over petty squabbles. Sometimes this did lead to death threats.
 

BrawlMan

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BeetleManiac said:
CoCage said:
It's the principle of the matter. While theirs actions are not as bad Jon's, but it's a case of they should have known better. The guy's name they mentioned face harassment over a FAQ he made over 15 years ago. The psychotic fans who did most defintely are blame, but Arin and Danny have to share the responsibility of what they did.
They fixed their mistake and removed the guy's name from the video. That is taking responsibility. Does it not count until they have been adequately publicly shamed or lose X number of subscribers or something?
They did the right thing by doing that, but the damage was already done by that point. I don't want them lose subscribers or to be publicly shamed, but as far as I am concerned I want nothing to do with them. If people still want to support or watch them, I have no problems with that.
 

Eri

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To everyone defending Destiny (who is an idiot)...


This sure as hell makes Destiny look way worse than anything he did to Jon.
 

Dansen

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Silentpony said:
Okay so I looked up this JonTron guy. Turns out I had heard him before, but not heard of him. He's apparently the voice of Celestia in the Two Best Sisters Play shorts. Who knew? Who cares?

Aside from that he literally seems like as has-been. He was a Grump(that's right, right?) and then left and hasn't done anything since. Why do we care, why is his opinion relevant, let alone 10 pages worthy? He was a dude from a YouTube channel at one time, like 5 years ago.
Except he isn't a "has been". He got Disney to pay him for a series he did on star wars licensed games. They have some insane production value compared to the usual youtuber stuff. His channel has well over 3 mil subscribers without artificially churning out tons of daily videos like game grumps. He is a well established channel with some reach(as far as youtubers go). Clearly he has/had fans on this site as well, just figured I would share this info with people who might be interested. You know, like what you are supposed to do on a forum?
 

Johnny Novgorod

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CoCage said:
BeetleManiac said:
CoCage said:
It's the principle of the matter. While theirs actions are not as bad Jon's, but it's a case of they should have known better. The guy's name they mentioned face harassment over a FAQ he made over 15 years ago. The psychotic fans who did most defintely are blame, but Arin and Danny have to share the responsibility of what they did.
They fixed their mistake and removed the guy's name from the video. That is taking responsibility. Does it not count until they have been adequately publicly shamed or lose X number of subscribers or something?
They did the right thing by doing that, but the damage was already done by that point. I don't want them lose subscribers or to be publicly shamed, but as far as I am concerned I want nothing to do with them. If people still want to support or watch them, I have no problems with that.
"The damage was already done". TBH it sounds like you're overreacting as much as those fans did, just in the other direction.
 

CaitSeith

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Silentpony said:
He got a pretty dedicated fanbase from his early days (and now 3 million subscribers in his main channel). He was pretty much good in making AVGN-like videos, but instead of rage and hardcore swearing, it featured "LOL so random" (which the Internet loves).


I find some of his videos entertaining; but that's all. JonTron as a show persona was never of my liking.
 

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Johnny Novgorod said:
CoCage said:
BeetleManiac said:
CoCage said:
It's the principle of the matter. While theirs actions are not as bad Jon's, but it's a case of they should have known better. The guy's name they mentioned face harassment over a FAQ he made over 15 years ago. The psychotic fans who did most defintely are blame, but Arin and Danny have to share the responsibility of what they did.
They fixed their mistake and removed the guy's name from the video. That is taking responsibility. Does it not count until they have been adequately publicly shamed or lose X number of subscribers or something?
They did the right thing by doing that, but the damage was already done by that point. I don't want them lose subscribers or to be publicly shamed, but as far as I am concerned I want nothing to do with them. If people still want to support or watch them, I have no problems with that.
"The damage was already done". TBH it sounds like you're overreacting as much as those fans did, just in the other direction.
I am just tired of of either of these people I like or respected come off as such inept idiots or jackasses. And then you got the people going way overboard to defend them and act like they did nothing wrong. As mentioned in a few earlier posts, Arin and Dan's content holds no interests me, so even if that moment never happened, they still have issues. Not like Jon's, but something I don'w want to waste my limited time watching It's been a rough week me for too, but I won't use that as an excuse (plus things are already looking up).

I won't dwell on it any longer as I've already said my piece. Thanks for checking on me Johnny. I understand your disagreements, but that is how I honestly feel.
 

WindKnight

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Eri said:
To everyone defending Destiny (who is an idiot)...

[Snip]

This sure as hell makes Destiny look way worse than anything he did to Jon.
At the risk of derailing, you really should watch Hbomberguys videos on Sargon befores using Sargons videos to prove anyone except Sargon is an idiot.