Fox12 said:
The African American community does commit more crime then other communities in the United States. Just like caucasian americans commit more crimes then individuals from various asian nations. Those are just statistics. Furthermore, arrests are proportional to the percentages of violent crimes committed. Those are simply the facts and data. How you feel about it is irrelevant. What matters is what this data actually means. Obviously race and genetics don't predispose you to committing crime. That would be ridiculous, and anyone who makes that claim actually is racist. However, it does raise the question about what this data means. One argument is that there exists systemic racism. That african americans are arrested as a result of bias in the law enforcement and judicial system. I think there is likely truth to this, but it does not explain disparities o its own. Another argument is that poverty is more likely to result in crime, and that since certain minorities don't enjoy the wealth and power of many caucasian americans, this results in disproportionate crime rates. I think there is likely some truth to this as well, but it does not explain why african american communities still commit disproportionate crime even independent of their financial success when compared to their peers across racial lines. Part of this may be systemic racism, but it can't account for the total disparity. The final argument would be an argument of sub cultures that have developed in the united states. Essentially, that certain cultures develop that encourage an increase in crime rates. This can be the result of racial differences in a society if schisms are formed. I think there's some truth to this as well, but again, it can't account for the total disparity. I think its a combination of all of the above. I think Jon Trons facts were wrong, but given his prior conversation with Sargon, this appears to be what he was trying to articulate.
I'll share in evilthecat's request for a citation to the claim "arrests are proportional to the percentages of violent crimes committed." That's a separate point. What JonTron asserted was that WEALTHY blacks commit more crime than poor whites. I wasn't arguing against the general crime statistics. To continue my actual point, ignoring that JonTron appears to have misinterpreted the study TheSpyIsASpyWDZ posted a link to, I ask what point is there to assert that wealthy blacks commit more crime in the context of this debate beyond suggesting, "See? Even with money/opportunity these blacks have an inclination toward crime..."?
Systemic racism is more than just shitty policing and draconian legislation. As a quick "for example", I'll cite Freddie Gray. If you look back at his history, you'll see a young man who suffered lead poisoning as a child (damaging him mentally and developmentally for life while predisposing him toward "increased aggression") due to shitty low-income housing then later had his monetary reparation stolen by predatory lawyers. If you look further back than that and ponder why he ended up in shitty-housing with lead paint, you come across a history covenants where owners selling homes to blacks in certain areas was forbidden, redlining where the FHA refused to insure any homes a black person bought, and predatory lending further contributing to urban decay while herding blacks into ghettoes where children like Gray were being poisoned as late as 1992.
History has consequences.
Also, you're being vague on the culture point (not even providing an example or describing what particular aspect) while not assigning "weight" to the causes you're ascribing to the statistic. I have no idea to what degree you believe causes like systemic racism and poverty are to blame, yet you apparently really really want to make sure I know that blacks really do commit the most crime. Really. For real.
If you believe "black culture" is mostly at fault, that's a different argument than an even 3-way split or however you slice it.
I agree, Jons position was without nuance, especially when speaking about America, which is a true melting pot.
If even you admit his position lacks nuance, why am I required to assume it has a rational, more flattering basis than prejudice (your thinking "racist" is too harsh a condemnation aside)?
Culture is what Jon was talking about, though. African Americans do commit more crimes then their peers across all racial demographic lines. Those are the facts, regardless of how politically correct you feel they are. Again, that's not caused by race itself, but it is probably the result of the things I listed above.
We're not randomly spewing factoids at each other. Any statistic cited in an argument is in service of a thesis being forwarded whether you and Jon admit it, or even realize it, or not. Context matters. Furthermore, I'm not impressed by political incorrectness that's curiously never directed at the group the person speaking it belongs to.
Let me ask: what is "black culture" to you? Moreover, what is "black culture" a consequence of? Did black mistrust of police occur in a vacuum, for example?
I also don't remember him saying "whiteness" determines "american-ness." What he said is that white americans have a right to be concerned about the fact that they are becoming a smaller demographic since they are less able to pursue their own self interest politically. Personally, I couldn't care less about this issue. But he is correct. Every group in america is concerned about their political makeup and power in america. Do you think this is unique to some caucasian americans? Many african american groups are unhappy to go from roughly 12 to 7 percent of the population, since it impairs their ability to seek their own self interest. It's power politics. Its dumb, but its there. Any group, across any line, wants more of a voice in politics. Any demographic shift that takes that away is going to make that group uncomfortable. This is simply acknowledging human nature.
The "whiteness" bit is inference on my part. I'll get to that.
For starters, there's a difference between a percentage dipping below double digits and angst over merely being the largest plurality rather than the majority. Never mind that I'm side-eying your "many african american groups are unhappy..." claim skeptically because it's irrelevant regardless.
Even you call JonTron's stance "dumb", so I'm left to speculate over your motives for defending it or attempting to assure me it's not as bad as I'm interpreting. The assumption underlying all of this angst is "America is ours (white people's) more than everyone else's." White discomfort isn't something to be overcome in order to assimilate into a diverse American experience. White people don't need to assimilate at all. White is core and default. 'Culture' is a smokescreen.
Not seeing fellow citizens as American because they're foreign-born and brown in a goddamn melting pot is pretty goddamned racist to me. All of this hand-wringing over "culture" and "assimilation" is a smokescreen to conceal a racial discomfort.
It does. Are you implying that different ethnicities and nationalities don't often have unique sub cultures? I thought this was common knowledge. Sometimes those cultures even influence the larger culture. I fail to see how this is even controversial.
Its not perfect, but to pretend that these dividing lines don't exist within culture is frankly silly. African Americans living in today's society don't identify by whatever nation their ancestors were taken from. They identify as African American.
I'd have to see what you're attributing to "black culture" and where you're drawing those dividing lines. I'll express what I'm wary of and say that if your characterization of "black culture" begins and ends with rap music and gang violence, this will be a very tedious discussion. Not saying this is where you're going, just what I'm honestly afraid of due to precedent.
"Culture exists" is a lot broader than "Black culture contributes of prevalent violence" when you haven't even established a definition or where this culture arose from. Cultures exist, yes, but I'm unclear about what you're picturing when you see the word versus what I'm picturing.
I'd point out that any historical discussion of African-American culture would start at "slavery", but that'd be guilt-shaming white people or something.
And here we are. It always comes down to this in the end, doesn't it? I'm a racist.
Which is funny, because I actually disagree with Jon on most of his points. I think he was wrong, and I mostly agreed with the other guy. Jon clearly lost the debate. But I don't think Jon Tron is a racist, so I'm racist I guess. At least your not quick to jump to conclusions.
No, I didn't call you a racist. My point, however, is that I'm not required to give you or Jon the benefit of the doubt. I don't know y'all from a brick in the wall. By telling you how your argument appeared to me, I'm signaling, "Hey, I find it curious that the tip of the spear on Fox12's post, the very first words, is "The African American community does commit more crime then other communities in the United States." and am wondering why he keeps circling back to it." giving you a chance to clarify.
Because, again bluntly, it seems to me like you're paying lip-service. Like, "Yeah, there's systemic racism and whatnot, but what's the REAL issue is blacks [pardon 'black culture']. JonTron has a point there!" That's what I'm second-guessing.