So, I agree with pretty much everything in Anita Sarkeesian's Damsels in Distress video.

[generals3]

It is also good to see the contrast between female and male characters who are dis-empowered presented. The problem isn't that female characters are shown to be in compromising positions in games. In plenty of games, male characters are captured, incapacitated, and so forth. But in contrast with the damsel in distress trope, male characters are typically allowed some kind of agency in their own escape.

And I wonder why she didn't show how Otacon got rescued in MGS1 instead of Snake escaping in Metal Gear. And what i'm trying to illustrate with this is how intellectually dishonest she is. She is merely showing one side of the bigger picture in every aspect to create a fallacious and fantasy world in which feminists are actually right.

But what is the worst about all this nonsense is that she goes out of her way to find things to be upset about. Everything can become discriminatory if you over-analyze it or only focus on the bad parts. One could also make the ludicrous claim that games are mysandrist as hell because they often put a lot more importance on the lives of women while considering those of men as disposable.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

Isn't it a bit redundant to point out that a kidnapped person has no agency? Surely you're a pretty incompetent kidnapper if the person you've kidnapped is free to do what they want.

I'd agree that women tend to be written poorly in games (so do men though) - but I'd disagree that women are usually represented as a 'reward'. Play Mario and the reward is the acknowledgement that you have successfully bested the game. Humans are tuned to feel good when they feel that they've achieved something, and that's why they like to beat games where the core engagement is challenge, like Mario. No player has ever said that they enjoyed Mario because they got gratitude off Peach at the end. The gratification is that you've beaten the game, rescuing peach is just a narrative justification for the game to end at that point.

An example where a women would be seen as a 'reward' from the perspective of a male player is that scene with the gratuitous lesbians in God of War (2? can't remember). Beat a stage, see some boobs. But Mario? Nah. I don't buy it. For me that's reading way too much into a game that doesn't even pretend to have a strong narrative.

Edit: I do also agree that there should be more female protagonists. White brown hair guy is now incredibly stale.

 

[Requia]

Isn't it a bit redundant to point out that a kidnapped person has no agency? Surely you're a pretty incompetent kidnapper if the person you've kidnapped is free to do what they want.

No. For example, in the original Zelda game Zelda split the triforce of Wisdom and locked the pieces away in dungeons so that Ganon couldn't have it. She spends 99% of the game imprisoned, but she's also one of the instigators of the plot.

 

[Murais]

Now what I don't get, truly cannot fathom AT ALL, is why feminism, not just as a concept but also simply as a word, is so damned reviled in the gaming community.

Feminists do not want to pee standing up and bite your penis off as a trophy for the Ovarian master race. They want women to be treated equally to men. The end. That's it. Equality. That shit we promise to people so they don't feel like their opinion doesn't matter and their social presence holds weight.

What's the problem? Own up to some gender biases in the industry and move on with a better mindset. It's totally okay to do so.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

Isn't it a bit redundant to point out that a kidnapped person has no agency? Surely you're a pretty incompetent kidnapper if the person you've kidnapped is free to do what they want.

No. For example, in the original Zelda game Zelda split the triforce of Wisdom and locked the pieces away in dungeons so that Ganon couldn't have it. She spends 99% of the game imprisoned, but she's also one of the instigators of the plot.

But surely she did that before being imprisoned (guessing, haven't played it.) Saying that people have agency prior to being imprisoned is kinda irrelevant to whether or not they have agency whilst imprisoned.

 

[MysticSlayer]

I'd agree that women tend to be written poorly in games (so do men though) - but I'd disagree that women are usually represented as a 'reward'. Play Mario and the reward is the acknowledgement that you have successfully bested the game. Humans are tuned to feel good when they feel that they've achieved something, and that's why they like to beat games where the core engagement is challenge, like Mario. No player has ever said that they enjoyed Mario because they got gratitude off Peach at the end. The gratification is that you've beaten the game, rescuing peach is just a narrative justification for the game to end at that point.

Well, if you compare it to a sport, there is sort of a sense where Peach is a "trophy". In a sport, you get satisfaction if you win the championship, but the trophy that goes along with it is a more tangible representation of that victory than the victory itself is. Likewise, you can gain satisfaction in the game by winning it, but Peach sort of serves as that "trophy" that helps solidify that you won. Granted, I seriously doubt anyone was ever suppose to take Mario seriously and hold it up to any form of analysis, but if you're digging for evidence of sexism in games, it's very easy to see Peach as the face of sexism if you completely ignore the nature of Mario games in general.

Not to mention that, after Paper Mario, I seriously can't see Peach as just being some victim who never plays a role in her own escape, especially after she keeps writing letters and sending gifts to Mario throughout the Galaxy games. This view certainly helps make her seem more as a very unlucky person rather than just a ball in some patriarchal game between Bowser and Mario, especially since Mario never seems to rescue Peach just to have sex with her, but simply because he's a kind-hearted person who won't turn down an opportunity to help those in need. Keep in mind, he often helps others on his adventures, not just Peach, and I don't recall him ever saying "no" when someone needed help.

Edit: I think I just analyzed the game that shouldn't be analyzed...Whoops.

 

[Xanex]

Dinosaur Planet
There is nothing wrong with this example at all. And I agree entirely, the way in which Dinosaur Planet had a strong woman originally, only to eventually play second fiddle to Fox McCloud, is saddening to me. And an evidence of sexism that has long been in the industry, and still exists today. There has been recent talk about "Remember Me" and articles from Penny Arcade [http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/remember-mes-surprising-connection-to-facebook-and-why-its-protagonist-had], about the industry purposely pushing female characters out of the way for male ones. Crystal, is a strong female character we lost because of this industry practice, and I lament it.

You know I think it's funny that people (especially Anita) gloss over that there were 2, YES 2 protagonists in the original incarnation of Dinosaur planet, the other being male. Even Anita says there was 2, but quickly runs away from that point and from then on makes it seems that there was only Crystal. And BOTH of the characters were scraped in favor of Star Fox.

 

[generals3]

They want women to be treated equally to men. The end. That's it. Equality.

Than why are they complaining about video games? Video game characters are nothing more than code lines. As such they are out of the "feminist jurisdiction" if all they care are about is equal treatment of men and women. And that is what people hate about feminists, the fact they twist everything into a feminist issue and as such constantly overstep their alleged boundaries.

 

[Requia]

Isn't it a bit redundant to point out that a kidnapped person has no agency? Surely you're a pretty incompetent kidnapper if the person you've kidnapped is free to do what they want.

No. For example, in the original Zelda game Zelda split the triforce of Wisdom and locked the pieces away in dungeons so that Ganon couldn't have it. She spends 99% of the game imprisoned, but she's also one of the instigators of the plot.

But surely she did that before being imprisoned (guessing, haven't played it.) Saying that people have agency prior to being imprisoned is kinda irrelevant to whether or not they have agency whilst imprisoned.

Agency is a whole plot question, not just what happens during the subplot.

 

[aba1]

When it comes to these subjects I think people put wayyyyyyyyyyy to much stock into gender roles. If a guy wins and a girl loses it HAS to be because of their genders right it couldn't be that the guy was better trained, it is all sexist trying to put down women blablabla. Your gender for the most part is a arbitrary thing and dictates very little. The only ones who make it matter are other people 90% of the time.

Sexism won't go away till we stop defining ourselves by our gender.

 

[ninjaRiv]

I still haven't seen it... I know I should but still... But what I have seen is a couple of videos arguing with her. The Thunderfoot one (Which I thought was mostly boring crap) and another one that made a lot of sense to me. I'll try and find that... Somewhere... And I'll be right back with it. I know it brings up Zelda and Peach as heroes...

Anyway, the Fox thing has already been mentioned. I don't know details, and I don't know if anyone yelled "you can't have a lady fox in there!!! Put a man's fox in there!!!" I agree with Mystic Slayer that it was probably just "Nobody knows here, let's put Fox in there" deal.

I agree kind of that "rescuing the princess" is an act of someone trying to help a loved one but I also agree that that's kind of a BS way of looking at it. Peach was meant as a prize.

Side note: Am I the only one sick of people shouting "straw man!!!" and not backing that up? "That's a straw man argument." Well, maybe it is but you need to explain why if you want your point to stand. Am I wrong in that?

 

[someonehairy-ish]

Well, if you compare it to a sport, there is sort of a sense where Peach is a "trophy". In a sport, you get satisfaction if you win the championship, but the trophy that goes along with it is a more tangible representation of that victory than the victory itself is. Likewise, you can gain satisfaction in the game by winning it, but Peach sort of serves as that "trophy" that helps solidify that you won.

I'd agree, except I don't think that the comparison to a trophy still doesn't hold up for me. A trophy is a permanent mark of your success in a sport. An appropriate analogy to gaming might be something like a highscore or perhaps a gear reward. You might boast to someone (an easily impressed someone) that you got a piece of epic gear in WoW, but I'd doubt that anyone has ever boasted that they rescued peach.

Isn't it a bit redundant to point out that a kidnapped person has no agency? Surely you're a pretty incompetent kidnapper if the person you've kidnapped is free to do what they want.

No. For example, in the original Zelda game Zelda split the triforce of Wisdom and locked the pieces away in dungeons so that Ganon couldn't have it. She spends 99% of the game imprisoned, but she's also one of the instigators of the plot.

But surely she did that before being imprisoned (guessing, haven't played it.) Saying that people have agency prior to being imprisoned is kinda irrelevant to whether or not they have agency whilst imprisoned.

Agency is a whole plot question, not just what happens during the subplot.

In general yes, but not when you're specifically trying to refute that it is redundant to state that characters who are currently imprisoned have little agency.

1 -> Characters who are imprisoned do not have agency. Characters who are not imprisoned have agency.
2 -> X character has agency and isn't imprisoned.

Statement 2 is consistent with statement 1... please tell me you see that?

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

They want women to be treated equally to men. The end. That's it. Equality.

Than why are they complaining about video games? Video game characters are nothing more than code lines. As such they are out of the "feminist jurisdiction" if all they care are about is equal treatment of men and women. And that is what people hate about feminists, the fact they twist everything into a feminist issue and as such constantly overstep their alleged boundaries.

Yes but real live women PLAY video games. I don't know if you have noticed.

Just want to point out this quote from the article the OP linked

?You can identify with people of the other gender in movies, why could you not in games? The fact that our core target is males 15-25 is not an excuse. We need to be able to create, and respect the audience enough to believe that they can be smart enough to identify with that type of character.?

Spoiler: Give that man Moris an award. Three awards and a cake.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

You now know why gaming community hate feminist, they want games to cater to them but don't want to partake in them and rather guilt the gaming community to doing it.

Really? That's a fucking shock to me. I'm a feminist and I've just finished Bioshock Infinite twice on 1999 mode...I've also been gaming since 1984.

Feminists are trying to improve the representation of women in video games but if you would rather keep your characterless half naked twist top boob monsters then you know I guess that's a matter of taste.

 

[TheRaggedQueen]

Oh wow. Replies that are testosterone fueled mockeries of anything resembling an actual response that isn't completely ad hominem, that manage to either twist, distort, or otherwise miss completely the points made by the topic creator as well as Anita's video. I'm...I'm not sure else I was expecting, honestly.

Which isn't to say that there aren't reasonable posts made within the topic, of course, but they're a minority against a shambling monstrosity of ignorance, misogyny, and all-around sexism that only serve to reinforce exactly why we need this video series, as well as developers to help contribute against this colossal embarrassment to the gaming community.

 

[generals3]

They want women to be treated equally to men. The end. That's it. Equality.

Than why are they complaining about video games? Video game characters are nothing more than code lines. As such they are out of the "feminist jurisdiction" if all they care are about is equal treatment of men and women. And that is what people hate about feminists, the fact they twist everything into a feminist issue and as such constantly overstep their alleged boundaries.

Yes but real live women PLAY video games. I don't know if you have noticed.

Just want to point out this quote from the article the OP linked

?You can identify with people of the other gender in movies, why could you not in games? The fact that our core target is males 15-25 is not an excuse. We need to be able to create, and respect the audience enough to believe that they can be smart enough to identify with that type of character.?

1) It is irrelevant because games do not discriminate against the players. Female players have access to exactly the same content as male ones. That you don't like the content is a totally different issue. Hint: the free market doesn't care about your opinion unless your opinion happens to be the one of many and can give the suppliers lots of $$$. This isn't discrimination this is capitalism 101. And feminism isn't about capitalism (unless it has been hijacked by communists?)

2) And that quote is irrelevant to equal treatment, misogyny or whatever. (so i'm not sure why you threw it in there)

And you know what, enough talk. Go on and start your qualitative and quantitative market analyses. Make a nice 50 pages market analysis and see what the market shows. Because until that is done no feminist has anything that proves that the gaming industry is misogynistic instead of just profit oriented.

 

[Darken12]

So, I'm sorry I'm not sorry. Because she's right and I completely agree with her.

Same here. There are things from her other videos that I disagree with (her support of gender constructs, mainly, and every point she makes that derives from that), but I couldn't agree more when it comes to that video.

Haters. They gonna hate.

EDIT: Also this:

Oh wow. Replies that are testosterone fueled mockeries of anything resembling an actual response that isn't completely ad hominem, that manage to either twist, distort, or otherwise miss completely the points made by the topic creator as well as Anita's video. I'm...I'm not sure else I was expecting, honestly.

Which isn't to say that there aren't reasonable posts made within the topic, of course, but they're a minority against a shambling monstrosity of ignorance, misogyny, and all-around sexism that only serve to reinforce exactly why we need this video series, as well as developers to help contribute against this colossal embarrassment to the gaming community.

My opinion of this thread, spot on.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Just because things are sexist to make profits doesn't mean they are any less sexist... One would argue that making content sexist is exclusionary to the core gameplay. That itself is something I take umbrage with.

That said I have no idea why men have a problem with better female characters.

It's a chicken and and egg situation devs make games sexist, intentionally or not, and women are then put off by it and so they don't play the game and so devs make sexist games.

Only way they are going to break that is by making better female characters, the onus is on them because if we support sexist games then they will think we are okay with it...

I play games and love them but I still recognize there is room for improvement and indeed more characters like Elizabeth and Lara would be welcome and look they aren't hideous man women you think feminists want to force on you. Who would have thunk huh.

Imagine if you loved games but lived in a world where 90% of games were aimed at women. Would you like that? Would you complain? Would you enjoy Loki in just his pants?

These are questions you need to ask yourself.