So I ask you, Escapists.... What is the Truth?

[awesomeemosewa]

I take what my brain says and 95% of the time its the opposite of that. ^^

 

[Gxas]

Provide a lot of evidence and support, there you go. Truth. Provide none, I won't consider your proposition.

Another athiest D:

How does this make me an athiest. I happen to have my own views on religion. Just because I need proof for something doesn't make me an athiest. Sure, there is no proof for the existance of a god. There is no definite proof for evolution either. There is more proof for evolution, but that is besides the point.

The point here is that I am not an athiest. I choose to believe my own set of beliefs.
Athiesm is the absence of beliefs. Fate is what I believe in.

Therefore, Gxas != athiest.

Jumping to conclusions is a good way to make enemies.

 

[fogmike]

Provide a lot of evidence and support, there you go. Truth. Provide none, I won't consider your proposition.

Another athiest D:

How does this make me an athiest. I happen to have my own views on religion. Just because I need proof for something doesn't make me an athiest. Sure, there is no proof for the existance of a god. There is no definite proof for evolution either. There is more proof for evolution, but that is besides the point.

The point here is that I am not an athiest. I choose to believe my own set of beliefs.
Athiesm is the absence of beliefs. Fate is what I believe in.

Therefore, Gxas != athiest.

Jumping to conclusions is a good way to make enemies.

Sorry - I seem to be surrounded by athiests at the moment who can't let go of the fact that I don't want to be converted. I meant it less as an accusation, more as a resigned sigh.

 

[Captain Picard]

Believing that there isn't a defined purpose or goal for one's existence is one thing. Believing that your own existence isn't true (a fact of reality) is another thing. If one believes their own or all existence isn't an incontrovertible fact of the universe, then it would follow that there is no difference between "existing" or "not existing". Therefore, the logical thing would be for them to be indifferent to whether or not they "live" or "die" right here, right now.

Please define "truth". In a brain in a vat scenario (I'm sure you know what I'm talking about) the brain lives what would certainly be an illusion ( a lie) to an outsider. But is it an illusion to the brain?

If someone's brain were in a vat, and was being fed sensory input which mimiced an existence as a fully functional biological organism that was more than just a brain in a vat, that scenario still wouldn't escape the fact that the existence of the brain (and thus the organism's consciousness) is a fact of reality. All that it percieves, however, is not a fact of the physical reality in which it exists, due to the fact that what is percived does not actually exist outside the organism's consciousness.

Is it possible that we are all simply brains in vats, being fed stimuli which produces a fictional reality that only exists in our minds? Maybe. I think it's far more likely, however, that this is NOT the case and regardless of whether or not what we percieve is real or not, our own existence is undeniable.

 

[Ancientgamer]

There's a lot of pseudo philosophical bullshit being thrown around in this thread. Saying "there's no such thing as truth" sounds all "deep" and artsy and crap, but I doubt even half of you know what you're saying, or even took more than a few seconds developing your "master life philosophy."

 

[FalloutJack]

The truth, to me? Well, if it's all up to me, then everything I say is true will be true. But my system is based upon the idea that in order for something to be true, it has to make sense. Rational sense, contextual sense, mythical sense, etc. Even folklore and religion has a KIND of logic to it, even though you can't tack it down with science.

 

[justhereforthemoney]

I think therefore I exist/am. I think that is a truth.

I'm pretty sure it goes something more along the way of "I question, therefore I think. I think, therefore I exist".

It might, uhh, warp some of the meaning.

Oh, I've never heard the full line before, interesting.

 

[Barakiel]

But this discussion has raised many interesting points, and most people (a subjective opinion) seem to agree (again subjective opinion) that the Truth (in a 'pure' form) as was my question seems to be... well... a subjective opinion.

Isn't saying 'Truth is subjective' an objective statement of truth?
That seems rather self-contradictory.

I could be lying. Or your opinion on what I might have said (at three in the morning) to be completely solid in its evidence and tone (when I could have been expressing my subjective opinion) could be?

I'm not sure. It's a deliciously twisted question.

Ah, see I think you have fallen into Decartes little rut, you have figured out that there could be no truth in the world, we could all be being decived, or that you are being decived and this is all just a dream.

Hell, the whole thing might have been. But if this is a dream, and you seem to speak truth, could you not simply be a lie?

So I ask you,Escapists - How do you define the truth?

but how do we know that YOU can handle the truth?

The truth of the matter is, properly defined, I would know HOW to handle the truth, wouldn't I?

And knowing is half the battle.

We cannot assume what we know is true, or what they know is not.
After all, we could be wrong.

No-one ever knows what is true. There is only what they perceive to be true. Now, a fair few people would claim (and, in fact, this is how it seems to work) that truth is subjective, and that what the majority believe to be true, must be. After all - "fifty million french men can't be wrong!" -But this in itself is not true, since the minority can be utterly correct(I.E. Global Warming).

So I ask you,Escapists - How do you define the truth?

1)Everyone knows one thing "I exist". Descartes showed that you can never be convinced that you do not exist.
2)Global warming does exist, it's a fact. Personal beliefs do not change facts. For example, if I said "I believe the sky is green", does not make it so. The sky is still blue due to the physics of light.

As for what is truth, I go with Wittgenstien on this one that truth is what you perceive after rational doubt has been considered and the truth altered as such.

How do I know that what you know to be blue, is not in fact my green?
This argument will likely make no sense, but I could have written entirely different things (to me) to what you have perceived me to say.
It's all one big mindfuck

But this in itself is not true, since the minority can be utterly correct(I.E. Global Warming).

Since when was Global Warming pronounced 'utterly correct'? Isn't it still a theory? As in, theres that other theory that states the earth just warms up and cools down as part of its cyclical nature.

As for the topic at hand, the truth is formed around subjective opinion, as well as evidence and proof. Thats...pretty much the best way I can put it, its a very hard concept to define.

And that is what makes this so fun, is it not?

Truth is Axiomatic. Truth is NOT subjective. Truth is, by definition, objective and unchangeable. We say that truth is subjective because our interpretation of the truth, our only link to the truth, is subjective. And we pursue that truth with truths lesser siblings of probability, evidence, and confidence.

One small moment.

I want to quote Dictionary.com for a moment.

Truth
  [trooth]
?noun, plural truths  /truðz, truθs/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [troothz, trooths] Show IPA .
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
7. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.
8. (often initial capital letter) ideal or fundamental reality apart from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life.
9. agreement with a standard or original.
10. accuracy, as of position or adjustment.
11. Archaic. fidelity or constancy.
?Idiom
12. in truth, in reality; in fact; actually: In truth, moral decay hastened the decline of the Roman Empire.

number two. By definition, the truth is conformity.
number six. An accepted fact.

Is conformity not subjective? We conform to what we perceive is the norm, do we not? Therefore by its definition, the truth must be subjective.

Conformity is subjective, but the truth is not. We refer to certain well established things as the truth, because it is unreasonable to spend every second of our lives acknowledging the possibility of even the most obvious, well established knowledge being potentially false. Sure, we could mention the conundrum of the solipsist, and point out how we can't be sure that matter even exists when we talk about Chemistry, but we don't because we have more important shit to do. It's very hard to define words like Truth in a dictionary: The fact that both of those definitions you bolded use the word truth to define truth shows just how impossible it really is to just give it a definition that doesn't rely on circular logic. We can refer to something as the truth when it probably is, and we can TREAT it like its subjective, even though it's not, because the time you save it worth a lot more then the minuscule chance that we are wrong. But once you get all philosophical, you have to acknowledge that our quest for truth is, in reality, an attempt to align our perceptions with an objective, concrete truth which does exist.

::Edit:: To clarify, when it says conformity, it is not talking about acceptance of people: It is saying that something is true when it conforms to, well, truth. In that example, it says nothing about subjectivity.

My bad. Was three in the morning, more looking for simple things to back up my Truth than you know, actually reading it.

And I'm not saying that I personally don't act as if things are true - like that I won't die when I go driving, for instance - but I cannot see how in reality that there could possibly be an objective concrete truth.

The implications would be too immense for the chaos that happens.

Of course, if I take that argument any further it starts to use Scripture, not Logic, and that's just silly.

Is it American who always have to 'seek the Truth' WHO Cares. I hate this topic.

Good sir I am not American, and I'd thank you to not be so xenophobic.
It ruins the good spirit of this discussion.

If you can prove something is true, then it's true. How you prove it may vary and some things cannot be proved but if you can't prove something then you cannot be sure it is true. This is quite obvious really, but it's hard to say otherwise how you can tell what is true and what is not.

What if you personally cannot prove it to be true?
Because if so, there's a hell of a lot of mathematics that I deem to be false....
Then again, trust comes into that.

(One pages in - three to go!)

Humans LABEL every bloody thing . When we stop, hell Truth flows by Jesus it flows..

But are we not simply labeling things as being true?

You want the truth?

I'm a 16 year old guy who's never had a girlfriend, who finds the greatest pleasure in life in slaying zombies and demons. I'm good at school, but never prepare, and have no idea where my life is going. That the truth you were looking for?

Not exactly. I was looking for a definition of truth, not your own truth.
Chin up, you're only 16.

We cannot assume what we know is true, or what they know is not.
After all, we could be wrong.

No-one ever knows what is true. There is only what they perceive to be true. Now, a fair few people would claim (and, in fact, this is how it seems to work) that truth is subjective, and that what the majority believe to be true, must be. After all - "fifty million french men can't be wrong!" -But this in itself is not true, since the minority can be utterly correct(I.E. Global Warming).

So I ask you,Escapists - How do you define the truth?

The only absolute truth is that there is no such thing as an absolute truth. Truth is paradoxical and subject to opinion and constant revision.

So find the lie that you're the most comfortable with and stick to it until something more comfortble comes along.

And thus I am entitled to free pizza!

(two to go!)

The truth is written by the winners in history

Captain Price quote ftw~

The truth can only be a fixed event or happening that exists no matter what. The truth isn't just things that have definately happened in the past, but things that will continue for ever. But, as nothing lasts forever other than Space itself as it continually expands, we have no other option than to conclude that 'Truth' is Space. However, 'Space' is non-existant, forcing us to say that the truth doesn't exist either.

Despite Space being non-existant though, we can see it. Surely this defies any definitive truths? We shouldn't be able to see or be aware of what doesn't exist, yet there it is. So we have to say that rather than the truth being a matter of 1 = 1, that the truth is more a case of 1 = 0 = 1. Zero has no value, yet is still a number; similar to the case of Space.

Since it exists whilst being non-existant, we have to assume that nothing is 'fixed' and that the definition of 'Truth' is an infinate value of variable circumstantial probability.

...But that's just my opinion. XD; *shot*

If space really is getting bigger, why the hell is the world so small?
(Sorry, couldn't resist)
You do have a point there.
I think.

On a more philosophical path, i found a quote ages ago, cant remember where it was from but it reads "Truth is not something that someone tells you, it is what comes from within."
Basically meaning truth is different for every person, and you cant be told what is true, you have to discover what it is for yourself.

So is Truth subjective? We've not reached a consensus here.

Something is true if it is an incontrovertible fact about the physical reality in which we exist. My fingers applied kinetic energy to the plastic surfaces of my keyboard while I composed this message. That is an undeniable fact of reality. Flawless mathematics is an abstract form of truth.

People who claim that everything (even physical reality and mathematics) is relative and therefore not truth irritate me to the point that I hold them in very low regard. If your existence as a functioning biological organism isn't a fact of reality, then would you object if your "faux" existence were ended right now?

I once watched a science video where people said there was an infinitely small but definitely powerful level of space between everything, and thus there is hardly any true interaction between anything.

I found it was a load of shit, but the guy on the video seemed to believe it.
And what if I believe that MY existence is quite real, but deny that you could in fact be real?
It's not like I can prove that you do in fact think, you could all be a projection of my severely addled mind.

Life must be hollow when the ground under your feet isn't a fact of reality, and you've not the ability to make any meaningful change to anything, since nothing is "real".

Well, I'm happy to let you know - it isn't.

What isn't?

If reality isn't a fact, then why not play RPGs all day? They're just as real as the rest of your life, if this is what you believe.

I see no problem with that suggestion. Too bad I'm not a fan of RPGs in general.

And too bad, whether this is a reality or simply a delusion, that I appear to have certain physical requirements like breathing, eating, and other things which can only be resolved with money, the best way (as in, least risky) to get which is to work.

Then what use are you to anyone or anything? You don't buy into your own existence, or anything else for that matter. Why should anyone care about you?

We haven't proven that he should care if anyone cares. It seems just as likely that other people may not exist, therefore any external care may well be internal care.

Philosophy is weird, is it not?

I flip a coin, then make a random decision not based on the coin toss

This is my truth.

Sounds fun. Does it work?

(on to the last page!)

Step 1: Get off the internet, hoof it down to your local community college, and enroll in a few entry-level philosophy courses.

You'll learn how to do fun things with conceptual language mathematics and you'll find out that "What is Truth" is a bit more complex a question than can be casually knocked out over an internet forum for a website devoted to funny videos and gaming.

Why would the answer not best be found here, in the off topic section of a gaming community?
It's just as likely as anywhere else.

Could not Humour be Truth?

Provide a lot of evidence and support, there you go. Truth. Provide none, I won't consider your proposition.

Another athiest D:

How does this make me an athiest. I happen to have my own views on religion. Just because I need proof for something doesn't make me an athiest. Sure, there is no proof for the existance of a god. There is no definite proof for evolution either. There is more proof for evolution, but that is besides the point.

The point here is that I am not an athiest. I choose to believe my own set of beliefs.
Athiesm is the absence of beliefs. Fate is what I believe in.

Therefore, Gxas != athiest.

Jumping to conclusions is a good way to make enemies.

Gxas! Nice to see you back.

I would think that Atheism was a lack of belief in gods, not a lack of belief in anything.
That's just being a downer.

(Reference: Definitions of atheism on the Web:

* the doctrine or belief that there is no God
* a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods )

There's a lot of pseudo philosophical bullshit being thrown around in this thread. Saying "there's no such thing as truth" sounds all "deep" and artsy and crap, but I doubt even half of you know what you're saying, or even took more than a few seconds developing your "master life philosophy."

I don't have a master life philosophy.
Hang on, lemme make one.
(By end of post it'll be there)

The truth, to me? Well, if it's all up to me, then everything I say is true will be true. But my system is based upon the idea that in order for something to be true, it has to make sense. Rational sense, contextual sense, mythical sense, etc. Even folklore and religion has a KIND of logic to it, even though you can't tack it down with science.

If everything you say is true is true, can you get me bacon and eggs for breakfast everyday that will make me healthier?
Please?

And now, my master life philosophy.

Live, Laugh, Learn.

Make odd philosophical posts on funny video and gaming websites.

Grow old, Die, and hope it was not all in vain.


two minutes, people!

 

[Gxas]

OHMYJESUSWALLOFQUOTES!

Though you may have the technical term right, I still consider fate to be a sort of god in its own sense. Sure, it isn't modeled after other gods, but it still shapes the world, which is, in my mind, what a god is there for.

 

[Barakiel]

OHMYJESUSWALLOFQUOTES!

Though you may have the technical term right, I still consider fate to be a sort of god in its own sense. Sure, it isn't modeled after other gods, but it still shapes the world, which is, in my mind, what a god is there for.

Sorry, but I couldn't just keep posting and posting, could I? Hehe

I think I get what you're saying.

To paraphrase on the most basic level, you're implying you're not atheist because you believe in fate as a substitute for god.

Fair enough.

 

[Thaius]

The problem is that different people think truth stems from different places. There is definitely such a thing as absolute truth, but it's often hard to tell what it is because there are so many different ways to define it. For instance, a religious standpoint would have it that truth is whatever God says it is: and of course, this makes sense from that standpoint. If there's an all-powerful God who created the universe, what he says goes. On the other hand, if people don't believe in that, their definition of truth could come from a number of different things.

But make no mistake, there is absolute truth. Just because we can't figure it out doesn't mean it doesn't exist: to think that we are even capable of understanding everything in this life is absolute arrogance.

 

[Gxas]

OHMYJESUSWALLOFQUOTES!

Though you may have the technical term right, I still consider fate to be a sort of god in its own sense. Sure, it isn't modeled after other gods, but it still shapes the world, which is, in my mind, what a god is there for.

Sorry, but I couldn't just keep posting and posting, could I? Hehe

I think I get what you're saying.

To paraphrase on the most basic level, you're implying you're not atheist because you believe in fate as a substitute for god.

Fair enough.

OHMYGOSH!

We understood each other on the first try!

/highfive

 

[Barakiel]

The problem is that different people think truth stems from different places. There is definitely such a thing as absolute truth, but it's often hard to tell what it is because there are so many different ways to define it. For instance, a religious standpoint would have it that truth is whatever God says it is: and of course, this makes sense from that standpoint. If there's an all-powerful God who created the universe, what he says goes. On the other hand, if people don't believe in that, their definition of truth could come from a number of different things.

But make no mistake, there is absolute truth. Just because we can't figure it out doesn't mean it doesn't exist: to think that we are even capable of understanding everything in this life is absolute arrogance.

And can anyone honestly say they've understood every post in this thread?
'cause I can't.

OHMYJESUSWALLOFQUOTES!

Though you may have the technical term right, I still consider fate to be a sort of god in its own sense. Sure, it isn't modeled after other gods, but it still shapes the world, which is, in my mind, what a god is there for.

Sorry, but I couldn't just keep posting and posting, could I? Hehe

I think I get what you're saying.

To paraphrase on the most basic level, you're implying you're not atheist because you believe in fate as a substitute for god.

Fair enough.

OHMYGOSH!

We understood each other on the first try!

/highfive

totally!
/highfive.

It helps with a couple hours of sleep.

 

[Barakiel]

Snip

I know you see blue as I see blue because of the structure of the receptors in your eyes being sensitive to the specific wavelengths they are.
I used to think the same until I did the science behind wavelengths and the eye. Sadly, your blue and mine is the same.

Fair enough. I just used to enjoy the thought that the world could be just a little more mad.