Sonic the Hedgehog Movie Trailer #2

[Hawki]

That's a clear positive angle, yeah. When the kids' view of it doesn't mix with the adult one I will agree.

I completely disagree.

Off the top of my head, Chronicles of Narnia. As a kid, my experience can be summed up as "ooh, lions and witches, cool!" Growing up, reading was more "huh, so it's actually an analogy to the concept of original sin and other Christian theology." How and when I made the shift escapes me, but my viewing of the text improved through exposure to 'adult ideas.' Or heck, even Jurassic Park. Kid me was "dinosaurs, scary!", adult me is the type of person who remembers the 'lunch scene' as much as any other memorable moment in the film for the ideas it discusses.

However, I'm sure kids will constantly run into questionable MLP-related material or borderline autistic anime dissertations online. I dunno if an IP gets richer from garbage.

Every IP has its share of garbage. But unless it's pornographic or something, I don't see harm in it.

If someone writes a thesis that MLP is championing the role of a single monarch over dual monarchs or something (in that Twilight takes over Celestia and Luna, and apparently does a better job ruling Equestria) I may disagree with the assertion, but I don't see how anyone could be harmed by it.

Sometimes the fans might try to ruin it, sometimes things fall apart due to the creator being a bit loony (J.K. "Just Kidding" Rowling).

Um, I think the fans (or a subset of them) were more loony than Rowling.

I usually avoid terms like this, but Rowling's biggest mistake was in trying to cave into the "woke" crowd without doing any actual writing for it. A case I remember was someone asking (paraphrased) "where are all the Jewish characters at Hogwarts?" To which Rowling pulled a name out of thin air for a character who'd never been seen before. What I wanted to know reading that was:

-Why are you expecting Jewish characters in Harry Potter when the series has never delved into religion at all?

-How does religion even feature into Wizarding Society, especially since the Abrahamic religions have the whole "magic is evil" thing going on?

The second question is actually kind of interesting, and I wouldn't mind seeing it explored. Like, say a Christian Muggle-born gets the letter and has trouble reconciling their faith with their abilities. Unfortunately, Rowling hasn't done that, and while that isn't bad in of itself, the whole representation thing likely isn't worried about that either. More the representation is the ends, not the means.

Rowling's not perfect, mind you - she stated that Dumbledore was gay, but has never put in the actual effort to depict him as such, so she's basically trying to have her cake and eat it. But when you get articles criticizing Cursed Child for not making Albus and Scorpius gay, then, yeah. Something's off. Criticism is usually based on what a work does do, not what it doesn't.

It's not hypothetical, it's called Sonic's Ultimate Harem (author Lil Soniq), comprises 360 chapters of Sonic raw-dogging Rouge, Peach, Samus et al and I'd quote parts of it if it didn't violate the CoC.

...and?

Congratulations, one fic out of millions. You've proven that porn exists.

There hasn't been a good Sonic game in decades so I'm not inclined to give the fans' wank material the benefit of the doubt. Most of them can't even spell.

And, er, how many Sonic games over the last few decades have you played? Because I can't reconcile that statement with personal experience.

Also, poor spelling is endemic. I review on ff.net (even though I don't want to mostly, but I believe in 'review repayments'), and poor spelling/grammar/punctuation is found across the board.

And again, just because something "took effort" doesn't mean it was worth the effort. You know that if you're quoting Sturgeon's Law.

Sturgeon's Law says nothing about effort. The entire point of Sturgeon's Law is that 90% of everything is crap, so, ergo, you could make the argument that an entire genre is crap based on that 90%. So it's safe to say that fic falls into the 90%. That still leaves us the 10%. Which is still going to be worth more than any individual action on changing the design.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Yeah, here's the difference: all that effortless "bitching" about the movie design got actual results, and improved the movie.
A user writing a 360 chapter 'fic in which Sonic doggy-styles a different "dripping" lady in each chapter doesn't improve anything (except my argument, which is: just because it took time, or effort, doesn't make it an achievement).

Difference being that the bitching was only achieved through culmative effort, and low effort at that. The contribution of the individual in this case is negligable, whereas the contribution of the individual in a fan work isn't.

There's also the fact that this hypothetical fic is going to fall into the 90% of crap specified by Sturgeon's Law. What happens when we look at the other 10%?

It's not hypothetical, it's called Sonic's Ultimate Harem (author Lil Soniq), comprises 360 chapters of Sonic raw-dogging Rouge, Peach, Samus et al and I'd quote parts of it if it didn't violate the CoC.

There hasn't been a good Sonic game in decades so I'm not inclined to give the fans' wank material the benefit of the doubt. Most of them can't even spell.

And again, just because something "took effort" doesn't mean it was worth the effort. You know that if you're quoting Sturgeon's Law.

Well if Sturgeon's Law is being repped here, what makes anyone think this movie is going to be in that 10%

 

[Combustion Kevin]

You know, just for making the adjustment and going through the extra effort, I may actually go see this movie, regardless of whether or not it's good.

If Shadow is teased for the sequel, I'm going to lose my shit.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Yeah, here's the difference: all that effortless "bitching" about the movie design got actual results, and improved the movie.
A user writing a 360 chapter 'fic in which Sonic doggy-styles a different "dripping" lady in each chapter doesn't improve anything (except my argument, which is: just because it took time, or effort, doesn't make it an achievement).

Difference being that the bitching was only achieved through culmative effort, and low effort at that. The contribution of the individual in this case is negligable, whereas the contribution of the individual in a fan work isn't.

There's also the fact that this hypothetical fic is going to fall into the 90% of crap specified by Sturgeon's Law. What happens when we look at the other 10%?

It's not hypothetical, it's called Sonic's Ultimate Harem (author Lil Soniq), comprises 360 chapters of Sonic raw-dogging Rouge, Peach, Samus et al and I'd quote parts of it if it didn't violate the CoC.

There hasn't been a good Sonic game in decades so I'm not inclined to give the fans' wank material the benefit of the doubt. Most of them can't even spell.

And again, just because something "took effort" doesn't mean it was worth the effort. You know that if you're quoting Sturgeon's Law.

Well if Sturgeon's Law is being repped here, what makes anyone think this movie is going to be in that 10%

I don't, not for a second. It still looks like an awful embarrasment, just without the nightmare fuel.

 

[Hawki]

If Shadow is teased for the sequel, I'm going to lose my shit.

Tails/Knuckles/Amy: "Are we a joke to you?"

 

[Xprimentyl]

Still looks bad, but now everyone is tricked into thinking it is not so bad because it is not as bad as it was, but it is still bad.

Cartoon characters should have cartoon movies.

I raise you "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" and "Mary Poppins".

... Actually, I might fold on Mary Poppins. I remember being bored as a kid.

I raise you "Who Framed Roger Rabbit".

God, that was a good movie.

Mary Poppins was dumb, and the cartoons were ancillary. And Who Framed Roger Rabbit was still a cartoon movie.

Neither tried to make the cartoons not be cartoons. Really they only support my point. Hell, the singular 'cartoon character' turned 'live action' in Roger Rabbit was the insane, disturbing villain who horrified many a child.

(SHHHH!!! Don?t remind the greedy Hollywood scumbags about Who Framed Roger Rabbit!! It?s one of very few of my cherished childhood films left that they haven?t appropriated for modernization and topical puns!!)

*AHEM* Man, haven?t watched SHORT CIRCUIT 2 in a while! What we wouldn?t PAY to see that gem again, maybe with a FRESH COAT OF PAINT and CGI? Yeah, a shit ton of CGI and MODERN POP CULTURE references! Probably good for 5 movies at LEAST; hell, he?s ?Johnny 5,? FIVE is right there in his name.*COUGH*

Anyhow, OT, seems a lot of people are taking pride in ?convincing? them to make the changes to Sonic?s appearance while forgetting it?s a Sonic movie. I get it, ?baby steps,? ?they listened? n?all, but what has anyone really gained outside of a better looking character in a destined-to-be-awful, fan-pandering cash grab? They basically wiped the lipstick off the pig because people love bacon.

And for those hating on Jim Carrey, I understand he?s divisive in that you either love him or hate him (I?m of the former opinion; come at me,) but in my humble opinion, he does appear to be the best thing going here. This film will need his signature over-the-top physical comedy (as well as his star power) to keep this at a comfortable ?camp[y] fire? level and from being an all-out ?dumpster fire.? It?s a live-action movie that no one asked for about a videogame animal that hasn?t been relevant in forever; c?mon, shit?s not floating without someone like Carrey flailing about to distract from the utter pointlessness of it.

But yay; he?s got gloves now?

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

It's not hypothetical, it's called Sonic's Ultimate Harem (author Lil Soniq), comprises 360 chapters of Sonic raw-dogging Rouge, Peach, Samus et al and I'd quote parts of it if it didn't violate the CoC.

...and?

And its existence is an "achievement" according to you.

And, er, how many Sonic games over the last few decades have you played? Because I can't reconcile that statement with personal experience.

Simultaneously enough and also too many.

Sturgeon's Law says nothing about effort. The entire point of Sturgeon's Law is that 90% of everything is crap, so, ergo, you could make the argument that an entire genre is crap based on that 90%. So it's safe to say that fic falls into the 90%. That still leaves us the 10%. Which is still going to be worth more than any individual action on changing the design.

All this talk about Sturgeon and you probably haven't even read one of his books. You're just passing his corpse around like the rest of the internet who spent a little too much time on TvTropes, which is to semiology what CinemaSins is to film criticism.

Here's the gist of it:

1) A horrible trailer came out with a horrible score and a horrible design.
2) People pointed it out.
3) Replace with an average trailer with average score and average design.
4) Everybody wins.

Though a part of me wishes the original nightmare fuel Sanic remained because it would suit the overall shittiness of the franchise.

 

[Hawki]

And its existence is an "achievement" according to you.

By the strictest definition of the word, yes.

Or, in context, it's still worth more than a few lines criticizing a trailer.

Simultaneously enough and also too many.

That's a nice non-answer.

All this talk about Sturgeon and you probably haven't even read one of his books. You're just passing his corpse around like the rest of the internet who spent a little too much time on TvTropes, which is to semiology what CinemaSins is to film criticism.

And that's a nice evasion.

No, I haven't read Sturgeon's work. What of it? I don't need to have read Princepa de Mathimatica to understand the basics of Newton's laws. But whether I've read it or not is academic to the assertion that even if 90% of everything is crap, even if that 90% is somehow worth less than criticism amounting to a few sentences and a dislike on YouTube, that still leaves the question of the remaining 10%.

Or, if we reframe the question outside the Law entirely, let me ask you what's worth more to the fanbase - keyboard criticism, or a fan work that's really good? Bearing in mind that this is referring to the individual level, not the sum total.

Here's the gist of it:

1) A horrible trailer came out with a horrible score and a horrible design.
2) People pointed it out.
3) Replace with an average trailer with average score and average design.
4) Everybody wins.

None of which is to do with the issue at hand, which is the question of what counts as a better achievement, or, alternatively, what's worth more to the fanbase. Fan creation, or keyboard/hashtag activism on the original level.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

And its existence is an "achievement" according to you.

By the strictest definition of the word, yes.

Or, in context, it's still worth more than a few lines criticizing a trailer.

Not if that makes the trailer - if not the movie - better.

Simultaneously enough and also too many.

That's a nice non-answer.

So you don't think they should've redesigned Sanic and that, for example, some shitty porno about cartoon animals is a better achievement than voicing criticism/heeding criticism. Well, that's you. You also think Terminator 6 is a good movie. But hey, for what it's worth, the new Sanic movie... is still gonna suck, just not as much. So really you're winning here. Either way I'm not watching it.

 

[Asita]

So you don't think they should've redesigned Sanic and that, for example, some shitty porno about cartoon animals is a better achievement than voicing criticism/heeding criticism. Well, that's you. You also think Terminator 6 is a good movie. But hey, for what it's worth, the new Sanic movie... is still gonna suck, just not as much. So really you're winning here. Either way I'm not watching it.

Just to inject myself into the conversation for a moment: I'd instead argue that calling the redesign an achievement of the fans is, at best, a misattribution. If we must insist on calling it an achievement at all, the credit should probably go to the CGI artists for accomplishing the redesign so quickly, as that also necessitates redoing the rigging, animation, CGI lighting, etc (ie, the achievement would be in how quickly they turned it around).

With that said, to call it an achievement at all is questionable. We don't call it achievement, for instance, when a company recognizes a problem and issues a product recall. This is effectively in the same boat as that. It's to their credit that the production team recognized that the negative reaction wasn't the fault of the fans and worked to address the issue, but to call any part of that an achievement is reaching.

 

[Hawki]

So you don't think they should've redesigned Sanic and that, for example, some shitty porno about cartoon animals is a better achievement than voicing criticism/heeding criticism.

No. That's a comlete misrepresentation of my argument.

I never said they shouldn't have redesigned Sonic, and I'm glad they did, even though I doubt it's going to make that much difference in the end. Second of all, this isn't about Paramount heeding criticism, and even if it was, I can't even call that an "achievement." Point is this - on the individual level, writing a bit of criticism and downvoting a video is not an achievement. And even if you're going to the dregs of fanfiction, that's still something that's worth more because at the very least, it's a creation.

Or, I'll put it this way. I vented my spleen about the trailer. I've also written a total of 7 multi-chaptered STH stories, plus 71 oneshots, plus 28 poems. Even if any of those things were pornographic, the question has to be raised what's the better "achievement" - me spending a few seconds of my life criticizing a character design, or stuff that I actually created?

You also think Terminator 6 is a good movie.

Um, yeah. That isn't a rare opinion.

Heck, I like Salvation and Genisys as well. Least there I'm in the minority (especially with the latter).

Just to inject myself into the conversation for a moment: I'd instead argue that calling the redesign an achievement of the fans is, at best, a misattribution. If we must insist on calling it an achievement at all, the credit should probably go to the CGI artists for accomplishing the redesign so quickly, as that also necessitates redoing the rigging, animation, CGI lighting, etc (ie, the achievement would be in how quickly they turned it around).

With that said, to call it an achievement at all is questionable. We don't call it achievement, for instance, when a company recognizes a problem and issues a product recall. This is effectively in the same boat as that. It's to their credit that the production team recognized that the negative reaction wasn't the fault of the fans and worked to address the issue, but to call any part of that an achievement is reaching.

This.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

So you don't think they should've redesigned Sanic and that, for example, some shitty porno about cartoon animals is a better achievement than voicing criticism/heeding criticism. Well, that's you. You also think Terminator 6 is a good movie. But hey, for what it's worth, the new Sanic movie... is still gonna suck, just not as much. So really you're winning here. Either way I'm not watching it.

Just to inject myself into the conversation for a moment: I'd instead argue that calling the redesign an achievement of the fans is, at best, a misattribution. If we must insist on calling it an achievement at all, the credit should probably go to the CGI artists for accomplishing the redesign so quickly, as that also necessitates redoing the rigging, animation, CGI lighting, etc (ie, the achievement would be in how quickly they turned it around).

With that said, to call it an achievement at all is questionable. We don't call it achievement, for instance, when a company recognizes a problem and issues a product recall. This is effectively in the same boat as that. It's to their credit that the production team recognized that the negative reaction wasn't the fault of the fans and worked to address the issue, but to call any part of that an achievement is reaching.

Are people saying this though?

I don't think anyone implied that the fans did the redesign (though they had folks from Sonic Mania work on it, which is a fangroup that makes fangames due to being fans), people are saying that they wouldn't have done that if fans didn't complain, which is very much likely.

So, the achievement isn't making the redesign, the achievement is convincing the 3D animator team to make the redesign when otherwise they wouldn't have done so. I think it's disingenuous to imply that fans believe they literally created this new sonic, what they did do is make it clear that the old one was no good, which is useful information. You can't make a redesign if you don't realize you need to do so in the first place.

 

[Asita]

So you don't think they should've redesigned Sanic and that, for example, some shitty porno about cartoon animals is a better achievement than voicing criticism/heeding criticism. Well, that's you. You also think Terminator 6 is a good movie. But hey, for what it's worth, the new Sanic movie... is still gonna suck, just not as much. So really you're winning here. Either way I'm not watching it.

Just to inject myself into the conversation for a moment: I'd instead argue that calling the redesign an achievement of the fans is, at best, a misattribution. If we must insist on calling it an achievement at all, the credit should probably go to the CGI artists for accomplishing the redesign so quickly, as that also necessitates redoing the rigging, animation, CGI lighting, etc (ie, the achievement would be in how quickly they turned it around).

With that said, to call it an achievement at all is questionable. We don't call it achievement, for instance, when a company recognizes a problem and issues a product recall. This is effectively in the same boat as that. It's to their credit that the production team recognized that the negative reaction wasn't the fault of the fans and worked to address the issue, but to call any part of that an achievement is reaching.

Are people saying this though?

I don't think anyone implied that the fans did the redesign (though they had folks from Sonic Mania work on it, which is a fangroup that makes fangames due to being fans), people are saying that they wouldn't have done that if fans didn't complain, which is very much likely.

So, the achievement isn't making the redesign, the achievement is convincing the 3D animator team to make the redesign when otherwise they wouldn't have done so. I think it's disingenuous to imply that fans believe they literally created this new sonic, what they did do is make it clear that the old one was no good, which is useful information. You can't make a redesign if you don't realize you need to do so in the first place.

I'm not saying that the fans believe that they literally created this new Sonic. I'm saying that calling the fact that it was redesigned an achievement of the fans is misattribution and hyperbolic to boot. The redesign is best described as a quality assurance move; the product announcement was met unfavorably due to a perceived flaw, so the company reworked its product to address those flaws before announcing the new and improved product. Calling that an achievement is like calling the return of Coca-Cola "Classic" and discontinuation of New Coke an achievement.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

So you don't think they should've redesigned Sanic and that, for example, some shitty porno about cartoon animals is a better achievement than voicing criticism/heeding criticism. Well, that's you. You also think Terminator 6 is a good movie. But hey, for what it's worth, the new Sanic movie... is still gonna suck, just not as much. So really you're winning here. Either way I'm not watching it.

Just to inject myself into the conversation for a moment: I'd instead argue that calling the redesign an achievement of the fans is, at best, a misattribution. If we must insist on calling it an achievement at all, the credit should probably go to the CGI artists for accomplishing the redesign so quickly, as that also necessitates redoing the rigging, animation, CGI lighting, etc (ie, the achievement would be in how quickly they turned it around).

With that said, to call it an achievement at all is questionable. We don't call it achievement, for instance, when a company recognizes a problem and issues a product recall. This is effectively in the same boat as that. It's to their credit that the production team recognized that the negative reaction wasn't the fault of the fans and worked to address the issue, but to call any part of that an achievement is reaching.

Are people saying this though?

I don't think anyone implied that the fans did the redesign (though they had folks from Sonic Mania work on it, which is a fangroup that makes fangames due to being fans), people are saying that they wouldn't have done that if fans didn't complain, which is very much likely.

So, the achievement isn't making the redesign, the achievement is convincing the 3D animator team to make the redesign when otherwise they wouldn't have done so. I think it's disingenuous to imply that fans believe they literally created this new sonic, what they did do is make it clear that the old one was no good, which is useful information. You can't make a redesign if you don't realize you need to do so in the first place.

I'm not saying that the fans believe that they literally created this new Sonic. I'm saying that calling the fact that it was redesigned an achievement of the fans is misattribution and hyperbolic to boot. The redesign is best described as a quality assurance move; the product announcement was met unfavorably due to a perceived flaw, so the company reworked its product to address those flaws before announcing the new and improved product. Calling that an achievement is like calling the return of Coca-Cola "Classic" and discontinuation of New Coke an achievement.

The coke example isn't the same because coke had actually been released for a while before being taken off, they didn't cancel it in the planning stages and go back to the drawing board like they did with Sonic.


Sonic however avoided being met with that predicament and either being abandoned or at best making a sequel that looks better thanks to the fans who were actually able to convince them that they really did need to change the design. Clearly if nobody complained they'd not have a reason to do anything.

 

[Asita]

I'm not saying that the fans believe that they literally created this new Sonic. I'm saying that calling the fact that it was redesigned an achievement of the fans is misattribution and hyperbolic to boot. The redesign is best described as a quality assurance move; the product announcement was met unfavorably due to a perceived flaw, so the company reworked its product to address those flaws before announcing the new and improved product. Calling that an achievement is like calling the return of Coca-Cola "Classic" and discontinuation of New Coke an achievement.

The coke example isn't the same because coke had actually been released for a while before being taken off, they didn't cancel it in the planning stages and go back to the drawing board like they did with Sonic.


Sonic however avoided being met with that predicament and either being abandoned or at best making a sequel that looks better thanks to the fans who were actually able to convince them that they really did need to change the design. Clearly if nobody complained they'd not have a reason to do anything.

...You say that as if Sonic wasn't already an iconic character long before this movie was even conceived and like the redesign doesn't evoke that iconic look far more strongly. Setting that aside, however, perhaps you'd prefer that I instead invoked rewrites/reshoots, like E.T.'s final act (basically everything after the eponymous alien dies after the government puts the characters in quarantine) being due to test audiences really not liking the original bleaker ending where E.T. stayed dead? Product recalls, perhaps? Or heck, it's a gaming forum, perhaps I should simply have drawn comparison to Final Fantasy XIV doing so badly that they scrapped and reinvented it as a Realm Reborn?

Neither the Sonic redesign nor any of these examples are achievements. Don't get me wrong, none of these changes were bad things, and in many cases it vastly improved the final product, but they aren't achievements and (with the exception of the E.T. example) could have been achieved with less hassle if they'd employed better product testing. And that's what gets me about the characterization of this as some kind of achievement. This is not something novel. This is part of the iterative process of creating a product that your consumer base wants. If the consumer base reacts negatively to the initial pitch of your product and it's due to a specific issue, you put in the extra hours to fix that issue.