Space Marines: They're becoming wimpier with each generation (Now with added ORK!)
- Thread starter Kadamon
- Start date
It's a way better read than the W40k-fluff (yes, I read W40k as well)
/facepalm
Did it ever occur to you that the space marines from Warhammer are not the same as the ones from Halo. It's like saying "man, goo has become so wimpy, remember the days of The Blob? Man all we get nowadays is Flubber and World of Goo"
Had the Warhammer spacemarines been nerfed then I would have understood your irritation.
Did it ever occur to you that the space marines from Warhammer are not the same as the ones from Halo. It's like saying "man, goo has become so wimpy, remember the days of The Blob? Man all we get nowadays is Flubber and World of Goo"
Had the Warhammer spacemarines been nerfed then I would have understood your irritation.
Well, sure; it's "Lovecraftian". The Warp is the chaotic ugliness of the universe. And it's in us, too -- that's what psykers and mutants and cults are all about. Humans are heading towards the same fate as the Eldar, and the only way they can see to avert it is to twist their society into a pretzel of obedience and repression.Wyatt said:
That's all actually pretty good stuff.
(Here I should interject that I don't pay that much attention to Warhammer, all in all; I've picked up a lot about it but I neither read nor play it.)
But...
In my opinion, the Space Marines are actually one of the most boring elements of the Imperium.
With Inquisitors, you can explore interesting moral conflicts -- sure, the doctrine says you should purge every single alien, mutant, or heretic, but in practice Inquisitors act with great autonomy. You have to decide what's right. Can you afford mercy? Would you sacrifice a whole world because Chaos has touched it? What do you do when you and another Inquisitor disagree?
Psykers have amazing power. They're probably man's best tool against Chaos, the Tyranids, and everything else. Hell, without astrotelepathy, human civilization would fall apart completely. But these guys are also a grave threat. Just as psykers fight the terrors of the Warp, they also let them in. There's a deep tension there, both for the psyker and his society in general. Too valuable to kill, too dangerous to live free, you're being asked to give your all for a society that hates and fears you deeply -- and, through it all, you have to find against yourself, too. Oh, and don't forget the excruciating torture.
You've also got the wide variety of regular people. From simple soldiers to thugs in some sprawling undercity. Pretty much all of them are living in a society where the core principle is "You don't matter".
Space Marines, Space Marines fight stuff. I know there's more to it than that but, well... it's definitely not as deep as some of the other stuff you could do with the setting.
Then there are the jokey bits: the way the Imperium is a big mockery of the Catholic Church, the random so-grim-it's-funny quotes, pretty much every single aspect of the Orks.
I really like the way the little Space Marine models look. I like the way Space Marine armies play. But the "fluff"? Meh. They're boring. They fight, and that's pretty much it. The stuff they're fighting is more interesting than they are. The people they're fighting for are more interesting than they are. Too much macho military wank, too few interesting core themes. Turning them into twelve-foot-tall acid-spitting supermen really doesn't do anything to make them cooler, either.
...
I don't think Starship Troopers is a particularly superb work of fiction. Just run-of-the-mill good. I do think it's likely Heinlein's best work, but I hate Heinlein in general. It's also definitely dated by now, both technologically and thematically. But it's indisputably the heart of the whole "space marine" genre (the class of military SF that's about guys with guns on the ground rather than hotshot starfighter pilots or officers in faux-British space navies), in a way that 40k just isn't. 40k Space Marines will never be "the" original space marines.
I can think of many other works that do "space marines" but still really pack in some deeper narrative themes.
There's Haldeman's The Forever War, now nearly as dated as Starship Troopers, but it's a pretty good metaphor for the author's feelings about society and his experiences in Vietnam.
John Scalzi recently wrote an absolutely wonderful book called Old Man's War, which nicely updates the technology to fit with modern ideas -- genetic engineering, nanotechnology, networked communication -- and also manages to be a deeply human story about human beings doing human things.
Heck, there's a 96-page indie RPG called 3:16 that piles on the "kill-happy machismo" while still delivering lots of personal conflict and deep moral unease.
I think all of these do "space marines" way better than 40k. They might make the characters just a bit less macho and stereotypically-soldierly, but they make them more human. And that's what makes them better fiction at the end of the day.
-- Alex
Hmmm...kinda. 1st edition Rogue Trader (1987) did have mutation and warp entities etc, but the big bad chaos gods didn't appear, although they might have been vaguely alluded to. The storylines developed over the years. Chaos didn't make a proper appearance until the 2 Realm of chaos books (around 1992 I think). Orks and Eldar were there from day 1. They also had Slaan & Squats (dwarves). It was kinda like D&D in space with a bunch of Judge Dredd tacked on.Wyatt said:
It's out of print now as it no longer fits into GW's fluff, but there was a book called 'Space Marine' that followed 3 rival Necromunda juve ganger recruited into the Imperial fists chapter through their training and etc. It was actually comparatively good, with actual characters rather than just AWESOME gun wank fodder. Probably cause it was written in the early 90's. Or maybe its just cause I was 14 when I read it, but if you can find it, give it a go.Alex_P said:
Your thinking of Ian Watson's Space Marine. He also wrote 'The Inquisition War', which basically created the basis of the current inquisition. It was also a awesome book.
I still like Guardsmen the most. The Guard are the most versatile army in the game- you can sneak in, drop in, bury them in a wave of bodies, rush them with tanks, flatten them with artillery, line up in close order and volley them- hell, with BoLS's Macharian Crusades books, you can even make entire Guard armies out of horsemen, engineers or primitive warriors (well, the codex did that, but it was shit. The macharian crusade rules for warrior weapons include scout, fleet and furious charge, thus making them actually usuable.)
I still like Guardsmen the most. The Guard are the most versatile army in the game- you can sneak in, drop in, bury them in a wave of bodies, rush them with tanks, flatten them with artillery, line up in close order and volley them- hell, with BoLS's Macharian Crusades books, you can even make entire Guard armies out of horsemen, engineers or primitive warriors (well, the codex did that, but it was shit. The macharian crusade rules for warrior weapons include scout, fleet and furious charge, thus making them actually usuable.)
I read 'Inquisitor'. The one with Jaq Draco. Was that the 1st in the inquisition war series? I abandoned GW in um...just after the battle & vehicle manuals came out for 1st edition, dunno what year that was, so I'm not really up on current events, though WHFRPv2 & Dark Heresy briefly re-kindled my interest.Fondant said:
Oh, and just to add to the debate (okay, just to be a dick).
These guys are much harder than master chief and 40K marines put together, seeing as they actually exist and aren't a bunch of made up bullshit.
in the fluff grey knights 300 SP hold of a horde of about 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 daemons and one of those guys is also sent off to kill a living god (first chapter didnt ruin much)
while later on 1000 yrs passed and a different group of SP (same chapter) get mauled by half naked tribes men with bows and arrows.
so yes they are getting wimpier even in the fluff
while later on 1000 yrs passed and a different group of SP (same chapter) get mauled by half naked tribes men with bows and arrows.
so yes they are getting wimpier even in the fluff
There were a lot of tribesmen, and they had demo charges and meltaguns. I know: I supplied them.
Second. This dude is the mother-fucking [a href"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_Hayha"]White Death[/a]. Killed 700+ on his own. With nothing but a trusty rifle and an SMG. You can go shove your Assault Rifles and Bolters up your arse!scumofsociety said:
Link fixed, and then he got shot in the head with an exploding bullet & survived. He should have been higher up on Cracked's list.rossatdi said:
I've already been deemed:
Excouminate Tratorius
Extremis Diabolis
Imperatorum Traitoria
And in general my heresy, treason and overall mercenary barbarism is well known. I also have five inquisitors tied up in my basement, and only two of them are female. Actually, that sounded wrong, but I'm not entirely sure what to do with them.
Evidence
http://www.commissar.proboards22.com/index.cgi?board=one&action=display&thread=442&page=1
Excouminate Tratorius
Extremis Diabolis
Imperatorum Traitoria
And in general my heresy, treason and overall mercenary barbarism is well known. I also have five inquisitors tied up in my basement, and only two of them are female. Actually, that sounded wrong, but I'm not entirely sure what to do with them.
Evidence
http://www.commissar.proboards22.com/index.cgi?board=one&action=display&thread=442&page=1
They are eight foot tall.Crazzee said:
They have three lungs and two hearts.
They spit acid.
They have more armour than god.
They carry Chainsaw Swords larger than you are.
They are strong enough to literally snap a normal human in half with their bare hands.
How exactly are they "not built" for close combat? They thrive in close combat! If you sent Master Chief into a bollock kicking contest with an Adeptus Astartes, we'd never find his body!
All this talk of 40k is pointless. We all know the most badass sci-fi soldiers are Anubis' Kull Warriors.
They just won't die! [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGH3k39lN9U]
EDIT:
He'd stand a chance.
They just won't die! [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGH3k39lN9U]
EDIT:
Gravity Hammer, Energy Sword.Wargamer said:
He'd stand a chance.