Speed Runner Beats Ocarina of Time in Less Than 19 Minutes

DrOswald

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SilverStuddedSquirre said:
Dr Oswald.

Oh I see your point. I would argue that by not engaging the Scroller of the Level, the Game is Glitching. Is it not? Maybe we should briefly discuss a "glitch" ? I can better see the conflicting nature of our conclusions from your last post.


RJ, On the subject of Mario Games having always included seeming "out of boundary" play?
As a professional programmer, I would define a glitch as some object or function not performing as expected. Or some combination of objects and functions not performing as expected. For example, being able to walk though a wall that is supposed to be solid is a glitch. Nothing like this occurs in the 1-e skip. All objects are performing exactly as expected, all functions are performing normally. Had they made that area a big box instead of just having a wall then the skip would not be possible. However, the developer did not explicitly intend for the 1-e skip to exist. This is not a glitch or a bug. The most you could make an argument for is that it is a design flaw.

But is it really a design flaw? In this specific instance the question is actually if the player should only be allowed to take routes that the developer explicitly intended. RJ 17 argues that only explicitly intended routes should be allowed.

But what about other, similar cases? There are places in the game that allow for similar skips - not skipping an auto scroller, but skipping large portions of a level - if you just make a very precise jump called a perfect flutter. Should these also be disallowed? What about extremely expert egg shots that eliminate the need to transform Yoshi on certain levels? These things were not explicitly intended. The developers probably thought they were impossible. But by expert skill these things are possible.
 

RJ 17

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Madmonk12345 said:
Never the less, sidequests are optional by design and not necessary to completing the main story. If the developers wanted to force people to play through them, they wouldn't really be called sidequests. The entire point of sidequests is to get your character extra stuff that'll make the main quest even easier. Is it necessary to get Knights of the Round in order to complete FF7? No, but it sure as hell makes it a lot easier. Is it necessary to collect every heart-piece in OOT? No, but it sure as hell helps.

Quite simply there's a MASSIVE difference between skipping all the side missions in a game and skipping from the first boss fight to the final boss fight in a matter of minutes. You've done absolutely nothing that was necessary to get to that point in the game. Hell, you're still Kid Link while fighting Ganondorf which is just straight-up wrong. I'm sorry, but that's not how you're supposed to play the game. You're supposed to be able to beat the game without collecting every heart piece that doesn't come at the end of a dungeon. You're supposed to be able to beat the game without completing every mini game. You're supposed to be able to complete the game without killing all the golden spiders. All of that stuff is optional, built into the game but not specifically necessary for completing it. You seem to be misunderstanding what I've been saying, I'm not saying that I demand 100% full-on completion in order for something to count, I'm just wanting people to do what's necessary to progress through the game. In OOT's case, that means going to the three dungeons as a kid, the 7 dungeons as an adult, and then fighting Ganon as an adult. You don't have to go fishing. You don't have to get Big Goron's Sword. You don't have to find all four bottles. You don't have to find all the heart pieces. Etc.

As another example - and one that I had mentioned previously to other people - I have absolutely nothing wrong with getting two warp whistles in Mario 3 and using them to go straight from World 1 to World 8. Why? Because the warp whistles are built into the game. There's no glitching through walls to get from World 1 to World 8, you're simply using a built-in secret. Similarly in world 1-2 of the first Mario, there's nothing wrong with getting above the level and running past everything. Why? Because you're clearly supposed to be able to get up there due to the fact that getting up there will lead you to the warp pipes at the end of the level.

To be quite honest, I highly doubt the developers care about how people play their games so long as people buy their games in the first place. Once you buy the game, its yours and you can play it however you want. All I'm saying is that I'm in no way impressed by people who play the game by exploiting things like what we see in this run, and my stating "this isn't news worthy or worthy of being considered a record" isn't me stating how the world is supposed to be, it's still just me spouting out my own opinion on the matter.
 

RJ 17

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Revnak said:
The thing is that we can clearly see what the developers of OOT intended with that door: you're not supposed to be able to go through it. It's meant to be solid and impassible. The makers of baseball might not have foreseen the knuckle ball, to use your example, however that certainly doesn't go outside the rules that were intended. The rules are "pitcher throws the ball to the batter, if it's outside the strike zone it's a ball, if it's inside the strike zone it's a strike". That leaves the question of "how does the pitcher throw the ball" up to the pitcher. It doesn't matter so long as he throws it. He cannot, however, set up a modified howitzer and blast the ball past the batter, because then he's no longer throwing the ball as was originally intended.

Similarly, in OOT, you're not supposed to wait for the boss to smack you throw a wall so you can end up fighting Ganondorf as Kid Link. That is clearly not how the game was intended to be played, because you're no longer progressing through the game.

For further explanation, look to my previous post in response to Madmonk.
 

DrOswald

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SilverStuddedSquirre said:
Dr Oswald,

I did not know that about Metroid Prime, and it's cool to know that the Dev's gave it a high 5. I would still make the comparison of "sequence break" being different from a "glitch." Before I dive into that though I would like to say excellent points about "spirit of the Game" and "developer intention." I think I will do some Googling before I say much there though.

I will liken this Dash-Jump to the famous Link Bomb-jump.

My inclination is to say that since the dash-jump does not allow Clipping through any terrain, [if I understand Correctly]
but lets you jump farther than a normal jump, and get to a platform containing the Super Jump power, that it does not sound at all the same as the glitch in OOT that skips most of the game because Time Warp. It seems to me like this is just Samus Aran being able to side jump farther than forward jump. While it certainly allows you to traverse vast sections of the Game at a much faster rate, I presume [not having played so please fill me in where I am wrong] you must still defeat the bosses and Metroids in the areas you are now much freer to traverse? To me unless getting this power up early means you immediately get to skip to the final form of a Multi-form boss - and be able to defeat it without the special weapon you are supposed to need to beat it - that it isn't in the same category.

This, I believe leads back to us defining a Glitch for this argument so we can all remain on the same page. I don't see the Metroid Prime example as a Glitch. I do however enjoy the dimension knowing they think any glitch you find is fine by them brings to the discussion, especially around the rules for any%.
I must admit that I am not as familiar with speed running the Prime games as the Zelda games. I do know that it allows you to completely skip at least one boss and several puzzle rooms, which is one reason you want to get the space jump early, and play the game completely out of order, reaching items long before you should normally be able to get them. It also allows for all sorts of out of bounds glitches, which is another reason you want to get it early.
 
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[ Also, creator intention only extends so far really, that's a major part of art criticism in general. I bet the people who made up baseball didn't intend for knuckle balls, or some other kinds of pitches or hits, but they came about anyway as a natural optimization of play relative to the rules of the game.] - Revnak


Interesting point. I doubt if they at all counted on the Various Pitches, or bunting. But here is the thing: whatever crazy path the ball takes: SOME part of the ball MUST pass over the plate and it must do so at a height consistent and fair for all players [generally considered to be from the shoulders to the knees, taken from the side of the batter closest to the pitcher], before being counted as a strike. There are some pretty phenomenal pitches that can be called strikes despite weird angles and speeds or rates of curvature or Doin' a Barrel Roll. The most beautifully thrown fastball is still a ball if it is a hair's width of space over from the plate.

I will also say that no matter how fancy you hit the ball, you still have to round the bases, in order, or you are out. You aren't allowed to jump from first over the pitcher to third, then run home. (though that would look pretty cool)
 

RJ 17

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DrOswald said:
All objects are performing exactly as expected, all functions are performing normally.
Ahhh, but are they? You specifically said yourself that the entire point of going all the way up there was to avoid an invisible switch that starts the screen scrolling. THAT function is not performing normally or as expected. The "normal function" of that level is to have that invisible switch get triggered so that the level starts slowly scrolling sideways on its own. By bypassing that switch, I'd say that the entire level then stops to function normally.
 
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Actually, all of them do let you shove a stick up Gannon's bum after doing a magical dance to teleport to the future. Before the I-que, they did this on the Virtual Console version, and before that on the N64 version, even the English one. All of them have crazy bugs (quite literally in some cases) and all of them allow you to do what Cosmo did, they just have more text and or lag.[/quote]


Well how about that. Things you learn!
 
Oct 20, 2010
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RJ 17 said:
DrOswald said:
All objects are performing exactly as expected, all functions are performing normally.
Ahhh, but are they? You specifically said yourself that the entire point of going all the way up there was to avoid an invisible switch that starts the screen scrolling. THAT function is not performing normally or as expected. The "normal function" of that level is to have that invisible switch get triggered so that the level starts slowly scrolling sideways on its own. By bypassing that switch, I'd say that the entire level then stops to function normally.

Exactly this question. As well, all of those really cool things described for Yoshi's Island sound like Feats of Skill employed by a Gamer, using mechanics properly. Except causing the Timer to break.
 

Revnak_v1legacy

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SilverStuddedSquirre said:
[ Also, creator intention only extends so far really, that's a major part of art criticism in general. I bet the people who made up baseball didn't intend for knuckle balls, or some other kinds of pitches or hits, but they came about anyway as a natural optimization of play relative to the rules of the game.] - Revnak


Interesting point. I doubt if they at all counted on the Various Pitches, or bunting. But here is the thing: whatever crazy path the ball takes: SOME part of the ball MUST pass over the plate and it must do so at a height consistent and fair for all players [generally considered to be from the shoulders to the knees, taken from the side of the batter closest to the pitcher], before being counted as a strike. There are some pretty phenomenal pitches that can be called strikes despite weird angles and speeds or rates of curvature or Doin' a Barrel Roll. The most beautifully thrown fastball is still a ball if it is a hair's width of space over from the plate.

I will also say that no matter how fancy you hit the ball, you still have to round the bases, in order, or you are out. You aren't allowed to jump from first over the pitcher to third, then run home. (though that would look pretty cool)
This is a game which forces all balls to be thrown in the strike zone. Nothing can happen that it did not allow to happen, though many of the things that do happen are pretty far outside of what could be predicted. The ball still passes over the plate, it just does so after looping around a few times and blinking in and out of existence.

RJ 17 said:
Revnak said:
The thing is that we can clearly see what the developers of OOT intended with that door: you're not supposed to be able to go through it. It's meant to be solid and impassible. The makers of baseball might not have foreseen the knuckle ball, to use your example, however that certainly doesn't go outside the rules that were intended. The rules are "pitcher throws the ball to the batter, if it's outside the strike zone it's a ball, if it's inside the strike zone it's a strike". That leaves the question of "how does the pitcher throw the ball" up to the pitcher. It doesn't matter so long as he throws it. He cannot, however, set up a modified howitzer and blast the ball past the batter, because then he's no longer throwing the ball as was originally intended.

Similarly, in OOT, you're not supposed to wait for the boss to smack you throw a wall so you can end up fighting Ganondorf as Kid Link. That is clearly not how the game was intended to be played, because you're no longer progressing through the game.

For further explanation, look to my previous post in response to Madmonk.
In Baseball, you have a ball which has to be thrown over the plate. If it does not go over the plate it counts as a ball. The batter has to hit the ball if it falls within a certain range, or it counts as a strike. The batter also can't hit the ball outside of a particular range, or it counts as a foul. This leads to numerous interesting pitches which fool the eye or put strange spin on the ball as an optimization of play, as well as bunting. Also, purposefully walking a player, obviously not intended in the rules, also came about.

In OOT, you are have to hit the boss in the eye to defeat it and summon the teleporter. It's hits cause knockback. This knockback can hit you through a wall. The teleporter works in mysterious, poorly coded ways. Add all this together and you have a foolproof way to get to the final boss fight. Sure, they didn't intend for it to work out this way, but they put it all in there, and then somebody put it all together. Nothing has been altered, everything that is there is part of the rules of the game.
 

RJ 17

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Revnak said:
In Baseball, you have a ball which has to be thrown over the plate. If it does not go over the plate it counts as a ball. The batter has to hit the ball if it falls within a certain range, or it counts as a strike. The batter also can't hit the ball outside of a particular range, or it counts as a foul. This leads to numerous interesting pitches which fool the eye or put strange spin on the ball as an optimization of play, as well as bunting. Also, purposefully walking a player, obviously not intended in the rules, also came about.

In OOT, you are have to hit the boss in the eye to defeat it and summon the teleporter. It's hits cause knockback. This knockback can hit you through a wall. The teleporter works in mysterious, poorly coded ways. Add all this together and you have a foolproof way to get to the final boss fight. Sure, they didn't intend for it to work out this way, but they put it all in there, and then somebody put it all together. Nothing has been altered, everything that is there is part of the rules of the game.
That comparison really has nothing to do with...well...itself. You just described the rules of baseball without describing an exploit. As I said, it doesn't matter how the pitcher throws the ball so long as he throws it. He can hold the ball any way he wants. He can put spin on the ball any way he wants. So long as he throws the ball in the direction of home plate, it's a valid pitch.

In OOT, you're quite clearly not supposed to go through that sealed door. It's that simple, really. The door seals behind you for a reason: to keep you in the boss battle. In pitching terms, this glitch would be like the pitcher throwing the ball to first base and having the first basemen throw the pitch. That's not how the game of baseball was meant to be played. Just like allowing yourself to get knocked back through the supposedly sealed wall is not how OOT was meant to be played.
 

Imperioratorex Caprae

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SirBryghtside said:
Imperioratorex Caprae said:
008Zulu said:
I don't recognize his achievement. Exploiting glitches to beat a game should invalidate the entire effort.
I hear making excuses that exploiting glitches is the essence of speedruns, I don't agree. If it ain't legit, it don't fit. Just glitching to the endboss isn't an achievement or a speed run. Now if this SOB got all the items, hearts, spiders and other collectibles and the perfect Goron sword then yes its a fucking achievement if done in 19 mins.
Why is 'beating it properly' so essential to this being an achievement? Ocarina of Time is a kid's game, a seven year old can beat it. The impressive thing about this run is that through one hell of a lot of time and dedication, this guy managed to design a route and then execute it near perfectly, to the point where he's the best at speedrunning a relatively popular game to run in the world. Not that he managed to beat the Water Temple.
I could beat any game using glitches, thats not an achievement no matter how fast I do it. Doing it within the game's parameters in an insanely short amount of time is an achievement, especially when its faster than most folk could do. I don't find glitching an "achievement" just because someone spent time looking for it, nor does it feel legit as an achievement of finishing the game because in reality all you did was skip to the final boss. It would be the same as entering a cheat or debug code, beating the last boss and saying I did it in 15 seconds.
 

DrOswald

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RJ 17 said:
DrOswald said:
All objects are performing exactly as expected, all functions are performing normally.
Ahhh, but are they? You specifically said yourself that the entire point of going all the way up there was to avoid an invisible switch that starts the screen scrolling. THAT function is not performing normally or as expected. The "normal function" of that level is to have that invisible switch get triggered so that the level starts slowly scrolling sideways on its own. By bypassing that switch, I'd say that the entire level then stops to function normally.
I can say for sure that all objects and functions are performing as expected. What you might be able to make an argument for is that the design is not performing as expected. Maybe they forgot to put a ceiling there. But that is not a glitch or a bug. It is a design flaw.

Lets use another example to make clear what I am saying. In level 2-2 a special circumstance appears. When Yoshi is hit a flying enemy will appear to move baby Mario around, making him harder to retrieve. That enemy can be grabbed and carried to a later portion of the level, spat out, and jumped on to clear a wall and skip a large portion of the level.

In both cases you use the same mechanics to skip mechanics present in the level and the result is the same: the way the level is played is altered. The intended solution is bypassed. The only difference is that one skips an auto scroller trigger and the other skips an "unskippable" spike trap. Neither level is played as intended. But I think you have to agree that, at least in the second case, the parts all worked as intended. The unforeseen consequence of those perfectly working parts may not have been intended, but they are all working.
 
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[This is a game which forces all balls to be thrown in the strike zone. Nothing can happen that it did not allow to happen, though many of the things that do happen are pretty far outside of what could be predicted. The ball still passes over the plate, it just does so after looping around a few times and blinking in and out of existence.] - Revank



Sure, I would call that a strike. Because the Pitcher's throw must still face the batter by passing corporeally over the plate. However, should that ball Phase out of existance, and then back in, hitting the glove without passing over the plate, it is a Ball. Imagining myself Umpiring this Game, I would be forced to call these wacky teleport pitches strikes. However after the Game I would give the Pitcher a Stern talking to about sportsmanship, and file the game under protest with the league myself. See, you aren't allowed to wear white sleeves as a Pitcher because it can hide teh ball, which is considered deliberately misleading, and labelled as cheating in the rulebook. If a Pitcher refuses to comply with a request to remove or roll up said sleeves, it is grounds for ejection from the game. So I MAY in the interest of there BEING a ball game at all, allow it. It sure wouldn't fly by without protest.
 

Revnak_v1legacy

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CriticKitten said:
Dunwich said:
no, this run is legit
No, it's not a legit run of the entire game, no matter how many people insist that it is. Because he didn't play the entire game.

Speed-runs that flat out break the intended play design of a game and/or exploit bugs and glitchy mechanics are not "legit", they are cheating. Harmless cheating, yes. Victimless cheating, absolutely. But still cheating.
I think you have to break some kind of rule to cheat. In Speedruns, no rules are broken. They remain exactly the same as usual. They are simply pushed as far as they can go, until one reaches a natural optimization of play based on what those rules were. Speedrunning is fundamentally incompatible with cheating, as it could not exist without the bounds of the rules in the first place.

SirBryghtside said:
It's not a 'legit run' in what context? The Any% category is designed to count getting to the end cutscene or whatever as a completion, it's definitely a 'legit run' in that regard.
Speed-running is not any sort of professional "sport", it does not require "categories" or "tiers" or anything of the sort. Either you beat the entire game, or you didn't.
THOU SHALT NOT APPLY CATEGORIZATION TO THE PLAYING OF VIDEO GAMES

THUS SAYETH THE ALMIGHTY CRITICKITTEN, YOUR CRITIC AND KITTEN

I mean, seriously, you can't tell them what to do man.

He didn't. If some people somewhere want to pat him on the back for beating 5% of the game in 20 minutes, good for them, but don't insist that I have to. Because I won't.
I will say it again, if you cannot find it impressive that somebody came up with all this totally random shit and then acquired the truly ridiculous measure of skill necessary to carry it all out then I really don't get your standards for what merits your approval.

Domogo said:
I Would agree with you if he was actually cheating
Well considering that he clearly is, as "cheating" encompasses things like the exploitation of glitches in the game code, I'm glad you and I agree that this run is not legitimate.
I'm not going to do it again.

Unless you're attempting to imply that glitches somehow "don't count" as cheating. Which, I'm pretty sure, would be like saying that intentional fouls shouldn't count against a team in a basketball game, but hey, you're welcome to your opinion. Me, I feel it's somewhat lacking in integrity to claim that he "beat the game" in 20 minutes when he clearly did not. He beat roughly 5% or so of the actual game in 20 minutes.
An intentionally foul is expressly outside of the rules of the game. It is forbidden. Teleporters are expressly part of the rules of OOT. It is in no way forbidden to use them.

What you're doing is like comparing how fast a pitcher throws a baseball to how fast a quarterback throws a football.
No, what I'm doing is saying that the pitcher who pitched a single perfect inning probably doesn't deserve anywhere near the same level of praise as the pitcher who pitched a perfect game across all of their innings. Especially if the first pitcher was using a teleporter to make his pitches just "appear" in the catcher's glove, and the other pitcher wasn't.

And you're making the mistake of pretending that both of these achievements are somehow "equal" in value. They are not. Which is my main problem with "you people" and your side of the argument. Exploits are cheating. He beat a small portion of the game really fast, that's good for him and all, but don't even try and pretend this is somehow worthy of equal or greater praise than a guy who speed-runs 100% of the game's content. Because it's not.
Beating all the temples is the culmaination of a totally different skill set and strategies. I wouldn't expect somebody who doesn't really pay close attention to speedruns to understand, but it really is like apples and oranges, and you really are comparing a pitcher to an NFL Quarterback. They are essentially playing two different games due to the additional rules applied to somebody doing a 100% run.

DrOswald said:
But here we have an interesting question: What is cheating?
Are you asking the literal definition? Because, that's what dictionaries and such are for. o_O

Wiki quotes here:
Cheating is the getting of reward for ability by dishonest means or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain unfair advantage in a competitive situation.
No rules are broken, no unfair advantage is gained, and nobody lies. It's only an unpleasant situation if the game is truly terrible for wide stretches, but I think that that part of the definition is a bit of a reach really.
 

Augustine

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This makes me wonder if tomorrow some guy finds a complex button press combination in Zelda that would teleport Link to the Ganon right before the final blow and the cutscene. And so he beats the game *air quotes* in, say, 3 seconds.
What is the value of that achievement?
Such three second video seems to have little worth.
 

Revnak_v1legacy

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SilverStuddedSquirre said:
[This is a game which forces all balls to be thrown in the strike zone. Nothing can happen that it did not allow to happen, though many of the things that do happen are pretty far outside of what could be predicted. The ball still passes over the plate, it just does so after looping around a few times and blinking in and out of existence.] - Revank



Sure, I would call that a strike. Because the Pitcher's throw must still face the batter by passing corporeally over the plate. However, should that ball Phase out of existance, and then back in, hitting the glove without passing over the plate, it is a Ball. Imagining myself Umpiring this Game, I would be forced to call these wacky teleport pitches strikes. However after the Game I would give the Pitcher a Stern talking to about sportsmanship, and file the game under protest with the league myself. See, you aren't allowed to wear white sleeves as a Pitcher because it can hide teh ball, which is considered deliberately misleading, and labelled as cheating in the rulebook. If a Pitcher refuses to comply with a request to remove or roll up said sleeves, it is grounds for ejection from the game. So I MAY in the interest of there BEING a ball game at all, allow it. It sure wouldn't fly by without protest.
And that's completely reasonable. If they want to patch out this glitches, or play without them, that is their call. But under these rules, this is the fastest run, and it is not breaking any rules or failing to "beat" the game.

RJ 17 said:
Revnak said:
In Baseball, you have a ball which has to be thrown over the plate. If it does not go over the plate it counts as a ball. The batter has to hit the ball if it falls within a certain range, or it counts as a strike. The batter also can't hit the ball outside of a particular range, or it counts as a foul. This leads to numerous interesting pitches which fool the eye or put strange spin on the ball as an optimization of play, as well as bunting. Also, purposefully walking a player, obviously not intended in the rules, also came about.

In OOT, you are have to hit the boss in the eye to defeat it and summon the teleporter. It's hits cause knockback. This knockback can hit you through a wall. The teleporter works in mysterious, poorly coded ways. Add all this together and you have a foolproof way to get to the final boss fight. Sure, they didn't intend for it to work out this way, but they put it all in there, and then somebody put it all together. Nothing has been altered, everything that is there is part of the rules of the game.
That comparison really has nothing to do with...well...itself. You just described the rules of baseball without describing an exploit. As I said, it doesn't matter how the pitcher throws the ball so long as he throws it. He can hold the ball any way he wants. He can put spin on the ball any way he wants. So long as he throws the ball in the direction of home plate, it's a valid pitch.

In OOT, you're quite clearly not supposed to go through that sealed door. It's that simple, really. The door seals behind you for a reason: to keep you in the boss battle. In pitching terms, this glitch would be like the pitcher throwing the ball to first base and having the first basemen throw the pitch. That's not how the game of baseball was meant to be played. Just like allowing yourself to get knocked back through the supposedly sealed wall is not how OOT was meant to be played.
In baseball you're clearly not supposed to intentionally walk a guy, but what are they gonna do about it when you do? In football, you really shouldn't just put half of your defenders 50 yards back, but if there's one play left and the score is 19-14, why wouldn't you? It is a clear example of doing whatever it is you have to to win as best as you can as long as the rules allow it. This whole spirit of the game thing is irrelevant to this level or style of play.
 

DrOswald

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CriticKitten said:
DrOswald said:
But here we have an interesting question: What is cheating?
Are you asking the literal definition? Because, that's what dictionaries and such are for. o_O

Wiki quotes here:
Cheating is the getting of reward for ability by dishonest means or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain unfair advantage in a competitive situation.
In video games, an exploit (colloquially sploit) is the use of a bug or glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers. Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial.
The individual in question is clearly using exploits to skip large sections of the game's content. Ergo, he is cheating, via the definition of both terms. While you can certainly argue that the exploit is relatively harmless and victimless (which I agree is true), it's by no means suddenly not cheating simply because it doesn't negatively affect the play of others.

The real question is not "is he cheating or not?", because he clearly is, by any reasonable sense of the definition. The real question is "does it matter?", and I suspect our answers to that question differ, and that we won't find common ground on this particular issue, either.
I am going to contest the charge of cheating here stated on the grounds that NO RULE IS EVER BROKEN. In multiplayer games exploits and glitches are often considered cheats. This is not the case in single player speed running, the rules having been collectively defined by competitive gamers around the world over a decade ago. Cosmo followed the rules, as coded and agreed upon by the competitive gaming community.

Just because the rules allow for unexpected interactions does not mean that using these interactions is cheating.
 

Revnak_v1legacy

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Augustine said:
This makes me wonder if tomorrow some guy finds a complex button press combination in Zelda that would teleport Link to the Ganon right before the final blow and the cutscene. And so he beats the game *air quotes* in, say, 3 seconds.
What is the value of that achievement?
Such three second video seems to have little worth.
It would be the fastest way to win under those rules. And then, since that isn't a particularly entertaining way to win or something that can be further optimized, people would just do a different category. There are games that work like that. Die Hard for instance has it's (largely comedic) low percent, bad end run where you jump out a window, but Die Hard is kinda a joke on the whole anyway.
 

Roxas1359

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I have something to help clear any confusion some people might have, and to illustrate something. The website that Cosmos does this for, along with many other speed runners, has official rules to how the speed runs must be done. In those rules it clearly states what is and is not allowed, and as the Speed Demos Archive has deemed the run legitimate then it is in fact legitimate. Note also, that the Awesome Games Done Quick/Awful Games Done Quick charity event also follows by these rules, and Speed Demos Archives has been an up and running site with these rules since 2004, with more usage of the site being applied in 2006.