Speed Runner Beats Ocarina of Time in Less Than 19 Minutes

Apr 5, 2008
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DrOswald said:
this is clearly a major skip that circumvents the developers intended path and is therefore against the spirit of the game.
I really like the "path" metaphor to describe speedrunning...a shame this post didn't exist before I posted mine above :) It's ideal for applying to the challenge of speedruns.

Following on from the "developer's path" through a game, to reinforce what I said earlier regarding the sole goal of the speedrun being to finish the game as swiftly as possible, the challenge is effectively to find the shortest path. The clock starts when the new game is started and the goal isn't to play through any or all of the content but simply to finish the game at which point the clock stops. As such, one can think of the speedrun as having a Point A (the start) and a Point B (the end). The aim is to get from A to B as swiftly as possible, using the fastest path. The challenge and skill therefore is for the player to find the shortest possible path between the two points, using any in-game means at their disposal and to execute it as best as they are able.

We mostly play our games for the fun, the entertainment, the escapism, the challenge and they're about the journey, not the destination. The speedrun just changes the priority from enjoying the journey to reaching the destination. I think it's as valid a challenge as any other.

Here's another cool video I remember of a Morrowind speedrun. Also very clever, very creative and well executed.


Other challenges...I remember reading a forum thread which acted as a "journal" or diary of a player on his solo "no death" challenge of BG2/ToB. He wrote it in character and it was brilliant to read his adventures, hardships and triumphs. I can't find the thread sadly and I remember he died in the Fire Temple in ToB which was disappointing. I guess when one has completed/played a game enough times, trying something different breathes new life into it. Solo challenges, different classes/followers, speedrunning, hardcore modes all offer something new to those who've experienced the journey enough already :)
 

Sunrider

Add a beat to normality
Nov 16, 2009
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I wonder if everyone who thinks he cheated, or "didn't beat the game", because he skipped parts of it thinks anyone using the warps in Super Mario Bros. is also a cheater.

Seriously, the amount of DERP I CANNOT BRAIN in this thread is just...wow.
 
Oct 20, 2010
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Sunrider84 said:
I wonder if everyone who thinks he cheated, or "didn't beat the game", because he skipped parts of it thinks anyone using the warps in Super Mario Bros. is also a cheater.

Seriously, the amount of DERP I CANNOT BRAIN in this thread is just...wow.


As Previously stated: please read the discussion before talking. All of your questions have been answered already.
 

Sunrider

Add a beat to normality
Nov 16, 2009
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SilverStuddedSquirre said:
Sunrider84 said:
I wonder if everyone who thinks he cheated, or "didn't beat the game", because he skipped parts of it thinks anyone using the warps in Super Mario Bros. is also a cheater.

Seriously, the amount of DERP I CANNOT BRAIN in this thread is just...wow.


As Previously stated: please read the discussion before talking. All of your questions have been answered already.
It wasn't as much a question as a comment on the absurdity of the argument as a whole.
 
Oct 20, 2010
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Sunrider84 said:
SilverStuddedSquirre said:
Sunrider84 said:
I wonder if everyone who thinks he cheated, or "didn't beat the game", because he skipped parts of it thinks anyone using the warps in Super Mario Bros. is also a cheater.

Seriously, the amount of DERP I CANNOT BRAIN in this thread is just...wow.


As Previously stated: please read the discussion before talking. All of your questions have been answered already.
It wasn't as much a question as a comment on the absurdity of the argument as a whole.
Ah, I get ya. Well, the Absurdity is mounting quickly because people keep jumping in and asking questions that were answered on the first page. (Not meant as a jab, sorry) And because others keep giving their definitions of Speedrunning without in any way contributing to or understanding the nature of a discussion.


KingsGambit: I would actually be very interested in reading that BG journal, sounds like Fun!
 

Roxas1359

Burn, Burn it All!
Aug 8, 2009
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SilverStuddedSquirre said:
The author could put in the news story the link I had, which states the rules for speed running on Speed Demos Archive, which is the site that all speed runners use when doing it competitively. It's also the rules that are followed for Awesome Games Done Quick and Awful Games Done Quick as well. If any of the guides break those rules then they will not be accepted by the site as legitimate speed runs, and to my knowledge if cheating is found out in the future it results in an account termination and ban.
Link to the official rules again
 
Oct 20, 2010
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Neronium said:
SilverStuddedSquirre said:
The author could put in the news story the link I had, which states the rules for speed running on Speed Demos Archive, which is the site that all speed runners use when doing it competitively. It's also the rules that are followed for Awesome Games Done Quick and Awful Games Done Quick as well. If any of the guides break those rules then they will not be accepted by the site as legitimate speed runs, and to my knowledge if cheating is found out in the future it results in an account termination and ban.
Link to the official rules again

You are absolutely correct, that would have been a major help.I would have liked to know right away that those were the perameters. However I would like to again remind you that the dissatisfaction with the Video is the Claimed "Beating" of the Game by using programming glitches to bypass the game, as opposed to beating it really fast Using game mechanics, even if said mechanics allow you get a Jump Powerup off the Bat Like DrOswald discussed with Metroid Prime. (woosh, run on sentence, that one) Not that Cosmos cheated within the bounds of his own competition; which I believe everybody has acknowledged he did not, and deserves his record within that competitive circuit.

So let me ask you straight up to be clear: Do you consider it beating the game to do what was done in the Video? Do you think the claim of Beating the game in under 20 mins is legitimate or False, and why so?
 

Signa

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Jul 16, 2008
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Man, the whining in this thread is incredible!

"He didn't visit my favorite area! It doesn't count as complete!"

Seriously, even if we had to accept that his cheats were not legitimate, someone is always going to call the run out for something. "you didn't get all 4 bottles!" "You didn't get the Ice arrows!" "you didn't collect all the Skulltulas!"

That's why we have categories. Quit getting mad at the all-drug Olympics because only the normal ones impress you.
 

Roxas1359

Burn, Burn it All!
Aug 8, 2009
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SilverStuddedSquirre said:
You are absolutely correct, that would have been a major help.I would have liked to know right away that those were the perameters. However I would like to again remind you that the dissatisfaction with the Video is the Claimed "Beating" of the Game by using programming glitches to bypass the game, as opposed to beating it really fast Using game mechanics, even if said mechanics allow you get a Jump Powerup off the Bat Like DrOswald discussed with Metroid Prime. (woosh, run on sentence, that one) Not that Cosmos cheated within the bounds of his own competition; which I believe everybody has acknowledged he did not, and deserves his record within that competitive circuit.

So let me ask you straight up to be clear: Do you consider it beating the game to do what was done in the Video? Do you think the claim of Beating the game in under 20 mins is legitimate or False, and why so?
And you having issues with the person "beating" the game are your opinion, but as the official rules state, glitches are accepted. Do I think he beat it? Quite frankly yes because a he fought the final boss and got to where the credits are, and that's what I consider being a game to be, and this opinion differs based on many people. Thing about this thread though is that some are trying to push their opinions as facts, and on page two whether he "beat" the game or not and arguing about it is honestly just arguing semantics at that point.
 
Oct 20, 2010
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Entirely so. Although in any argument you will have people try to push their opinions as facts. I may have done it myself today. And while the argument can certainly be called semantic, given that the meaning in question is the meaning of "beaten," one can hardly write it off as irrelevant in regards to what "beating a game" means. We discovered many different and interesting opinions on the subject of beating a Game, and mostly everybody was on topic and discussed well. Although many of us still disagree about what that means, we all had a good Talk about it- And that's what the Forums are for. I know I have enjoyed myself so far, and would like to thank yourself, DrOswald, Rj 17 and Revank for the Good discussion. I do believe we have thoroughly hashed out all point and that the discussion is quite near it's endpoint, but I also said that what? two pages ago now? ;P
 
Sep 13, 2009
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I seriously expected the people claiming that it didn't count would die down once people pointed out that there's different categories of speed runs, categories for glitch free, 100%, ect... This is not 100%, the goal of this is to go from the start of the game to the end of the game using any means possible. If you have anything to complain about, complain about the title for not coinciding with your definition of beating the game, this guy isn't claiming to have beaten the game 100%, and honestly how could you even come to this thread expecting to see the game 100% beaten without any glitches in under 20 minutes?

For those saying that it's no real achievement, I cannot agree with you less. Have you tried exploiting any of these glitches? It takes an insane amount of precision and practice to do them consistently. I would love to see anyone complaining about how this guy's achievement means absolutely nothing try to beat the game using his method in even less than an hour. If you could do that, then perhaps I'll listen to your criticism.
 

RJ 17

The Sound of Silence
Nov 27, 2011
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DrOswald said:
I can say for sure that all objects and functions are performing as expected. What you might be able to make an argument for is that the design is not performing as expected. Maybe they forgot to put a ceiling there. But that is not a glitch or a bug. It is a design flaw.

Lets use another example to make clear what I am saying. In level 2-2 a special circumstance appears. When Yoshi is hit a flying enemy will appear to move baby Mario around, making him harder to retrieve. That enemy can be grabbed and carried to a later portion of the level, spat out, and jumped on to clear a wall and skip a large portion of the level.

In both cases you use the same mechanics to skip mechanics present in the level and the result is the same: the way the level is played is altered. The intended solution is bypassed. The only difference is that one skips an auto scroller trigger and the other skips an "unskippable" spike trap. Neither level is played as intended. But I think you have to agree that, at least in the second case, the parts all worked as intended. The unforeseen consequence of those perfectly working parts may not have been intended, but they are all working.
But that's where we apparently disagree on matters. Granted, I'm not claiming to be a programmer, but I'd imagine that a "bug" or "glitch" is, by definition, a design flaw...isn't it? Something that shouldn't be in the coding or something coded incorrectly? That's how you get things such as getting hit back through what's supposed to be a sealed doorway and end up at the final part of the game as Kid Link.

For the Yoshi's Island scenarios, I'd say that the 1-e case is an example similar to this OOT playthrough, while the 2-2 case would be similar to the Metroid example (which I said I was fine with). The difference being one is using a valid mechanic (a simple side jump to reach a platform or capturing an enemy to spit him out later) while the other is exploiting bad coding (passing through what is supposed to be a sealed door or bypassing a trigger which starts an entire process).
 
Sep 14, 2009
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CriticKitten said:
you're being obtuse, the title of the escapist article is misleading, no one is arguing that, however the guy in the actual video is not claiming to be the quickest speedrun to beat the whole game barring optional material, it's a very specific category in the speedrunning community, and they have legit specific rulesets if you want to be in a certain category, which he did. Anything he used as an exploit was built into the game, he didn't use a modded controller, a modded game, nor a gameshark, he just used his wits and skills to be the quickest in that challenge. (the point of the challenge.) No one is claiming that this speed run is any more important than a speedrun of the main game (all the main temples/dungeons+master sword+ganon,etc..), because there is a separate category for that. He did BEAT the challenge, as that is what he was going for, using anything built within the game to finish the game, ergo, beat the final boss and cue the ending. Would I ever do this? hell no, it doesn't seem fun to me, but it's foolish of me to to try and argue it isn't legitimate, as a single player game, in a international community, under a certain ruleset, that he didn't beat the challenge fair and square.


I can make up my own rules for Monopoly and play my friends in a game of Kitty Steals Your Money Monopoly, but no one in their right mind would try and claim that my victory was remotely equal to that of a person who wins the game through the standard rule set.
You could perfectly claim that you were the best at that version of the game, sure, no one would be able to quarrel that unless they beat you, the reigning champ at it. Tons of games are made inside/based off of other games, I see no reason why (if your version was fun) your game would be any less legitimate than regular monopoly.

You can claim all you want that what he did is not legitimate, but by the rules in his category, yes, everything he did is legitimate.

I can't tell you how many times my friends and I have altered games to either speed them up or make them more interesting, and your stubbornness to not let people think outside the box in a single player scenario is astounding. I don't know what you expected coming in here with a 19~20 minute timer on the video, anyone with two brain cells rubbing together would estimate that he would go through that alone in cutscenes, let alone any gameplay of of OOT.
 

RJ 17

The Sound of Silence
Nov 27, 2011
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Revnak said:
In baseball you're clearly not supposed to intentionally walk a guy, but what are they gonna do about it when you do? In football, you really shouldn't just put half of your defenders 50 yards back, but if there's one play left and the score is 19-14, why wouldn't you? It is a clear example of doing whatever it is you have to to win as best as you can as long as the rules allow it. This whole spirit of the game thing is irrelevant to this level or style of play.
The difference is that in both cases, what the team has decided to do falls completely within the rules of the game. There's no rule that says you can't intentionally walk a batter that's dangerous, just as there's no rule that says you can't drop your entire defense back into 50 yard coverage. So long as the pitcher is throwing the ball towards home plate in baseball and the defense has 11 players on the field in football, they can use whatever strategy they want.

What is going on in this video goes outside of the "rules" of the game. Namely: you can walk through solid walls. The only reason you can is because there's no ref to call foul. :p

Quite simply: it's exploitation of bad coding (a glitch, an error that should not exist) and not simply exploitation of a mechanic (a well thought strategy such as intentionally walking a batter or dropping into deep coverage to prevent the Hail Mary pass).
 
Oct 20, 2010
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[I don't know what you expected coming in here with a 19~20 minute timer on the video, anyone with two brain cells rubbing together would estimate that he would go through that alone in cutscenes, let alone any gameplay of of OOT.] - gmaverick019


Yes, and that is why the opinion was that the general claim of beating the game in such a time was false. Then we began to discuss whether certain plays were exploiting programming glitches, which some of Us consider cheating, versus utilizing game mechanics to get to platforms the programmers thought you couldn't reach. (see Rj 17's most recent post)
 
Sep 14, 2009
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SilverStuddedSquirre said:
[I don't know what you expected coming in here with a 19~20 minute timer on the video, anyone with two brain cells rubbing together would estimate that he would go through that alone in cutscenes, let alone any gameplay of of OOT.] - gmaverick019


Yes, and that is why the opinion was that the general claim of beating the game in such a time was false. Then we began to discuss whether certain plays were exploiting programming glitches, which some of Us consider cheating, versus utilizing game mechanics to get to platforms the programmers thought you couldn't reach. (see Rj 17's most recent post)
luckily you posted before I reposted, so perhaps just use the quote function in the future, if you want me to see it.

The article title is wrong, however the video is not, he accomplished which he set out to do, in the category that he was playing for.

Don't move the goalposts unless you want to talk about a different category, what he did is legitamate within the category he was going for (which alot of speedrunners go for in fact. Not something I would ever attempt mind you, but the mindset isn't hard to understand)