Speed Runner Beats Ocarina of Time in Less Than 19 Minutes

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

[I don't know what you expected coming in here with a 19~20 minute timer on the video, anyone with two brain cells rubbing together would estimate that he would go through that alone in cutscenes, let alone any gameplay of of OOT.] - gmaverick019


Yes, and that is why the opinion was that the general claim of beating the game in such a time was false. Then we began to discuss whether certain plays were exploiting programming glitches, which some of Us consider cheating, versus utilizing game mechanics to get to platforms the programmers thought you couldn't reach. (see Rj 17's most recent post)

luckily you posted before I reposted, so perhaps just use the quote function in the future, if you want me to see it.

The article title is wrong, however the video is not, he accomplished which he set out to do, in the category that he was playing for.

Don't move the goalposts unless you want to talk about a different category, what he did is legitamate within the category he was going for (which alot of speedrunners go for in fact. Not something I would ever attempt mind you, but the mindset isn't hard to understand)

I am not moving the goalposts. If you care to read back I have specifically said that I do not wish to take away a record in what (through the posts of others here today) I have learned is a legitimate category of an actual competition. The misleading nature of the article title versus what Cosmos was actually doing has also been pointed out and acknowledged. I have learned much about speedrunning culture today and I am happy for that. I certainly agree with you that the Video made by Cosmo himself is not misleading in any way, and that it has been misrepresented on the Escapist. I would like to ask this now:


So lets remove the competition part from the equation, because we aren't trying to Troll Cosmo, and because we all understand fully the difference in his actual Video and this discussion. Saying ONLY that the player beats a game in the manner seen in the video: can you see why some people say he did not beat the game? That is today's discussion. I certainly don't think you should agree with me, you are a free person. I think that I have rather spent a Lot of today keeping the Goalpost firmly centered ON the proper point; that being the nature of a glitch versus a skill, and wether or not Glitching through 90% of the game and bypassing EVRYTHING the game would have you do by a level glitch, rather than some Awesome Skill, can be considered Beating it.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

I simply said, in no uncertain or difficult to comprehend terms, that he did not beat the game. And it sounds like you agree. So if you agree with me, then why are you bothering to argue with me?

Under what the dev's intended, no, he did not beat the game, however, under his ruleset (which you obliged to recognize) he did beat the game. That is misleading by the article title, however in his video it is not.

snip snippity, snip snip-a-roo

I must've missed that, I did read nearly all the pages, but apparently not all of it, so I apologize for misunderstanding your original post to me.

can you see why some people say he did not beat the game? That is today's discussion. I certainly don't think you should agree with me, you are a free person. I think that I have rather spent a Lot of today keeping the Goalpost firmly centered ON the proper point; that being the nature of a glitch versus a skill, and wether or not Glitching through 90% of the game and bypassing EVRYTHING the game would have you do by a level glitch, rather than some Awesome Skill, can be considered Beating it.

I do see what they mean, and if a friend told me he beat this game in this manner I would scratch my head and roll my eyes, as many people here have done. I, and many people here, were arguing that under his specific category, he did fulfill the requirements, which is what I was arguing for. Now I would debate that this is "awesome" skill, because it isn't easy to do, but I wouldn't ever do it and I would fully frown upon it in a multiplayer scenario. I don't see that it has to be one extreme or the other, many glitches do take skill to pull off.

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

gMaverick,

It IS getting to be a lot to read through, I can understand missing bits. And it seems that you agree with me, in the context of simply "you didn't beat the game sorry" which was all I ever argued. I fully appreciate that what he did is difficult in it's own right, I really do, but again it is actually MORE impressive in the context of him being the best at doing it that way, than it is to say that is how he beat the game. As has been mentioned, misleading article. I can also certainly concede that wining said competition is definitely Awesome Skill.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

gMaverick,

It IS getting to be a lot to read through, I can understand missing bits. And it seems that you agree with me, in the context of simply "you didn't beat the game sorry" which was all I ever argued. I fully appreciate that what he did is difficult in it's own right, I really do, but again it is actually MORE impressive in the context of him being the best at doing it that way, than it is to say that is how he beat the game. As has been mentioned, misleading article.

fair enough, Due to the articles misleading title and due to alot of people here arguing from opposite goalposts based on interpretation, I'll say this caused alot more controversy then it should have. Did spark some nice conversation though, and I think this definitely a good gray topic to discuss when it comes to single player

Spoiler: incoming bro collision

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

My computer wont let me see whatever that incoming Bro collision was. sounds funny, can you try a re-post? or just the link?

Oh! Oh! tell me its a High Five from the new Double Draagon for Max Gleam! / edit

edit edit: Predator, awesomesauce XD

 

[major_chaos]

Personally I find glichless runs boring because all they are is people beating a game in a totally normal way but with haste. I used to be able to beat Metroid Fusion in like 30 minutes, it wasn't terribly interesting. In my opinion any % runs are absurdly more interesting because they show of techniques that I never would never come up with or be able to pull off, and frankly from where I'm standing they take more skill. I bet 99.99% of the people saying this "isn't legit" would never have found any of these glitches, let alone be able to do them, and forget doing it with a tenth of the speed or reliability this run took.

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

Ugh, I can't type any more today, I want to go PLAY some video games now XD Anybody in for some Gran Tourismo 6 ?

 

[DrOswald]

I can say for sure that all objects and functions are performing as expected. What you might be able to make an argument for is that the design is not performing as expected. Maybe they forgot to put a ceiling there. But that is not a glitch or a bug. It is a design flaw.

Lets use another example to make clear what I am saying. In level 2-2 a special circumstance appears. When Yoshi is hit a flying enemy will appear to move baby Mario around, making him harder to retrieve. That enemy can be grabbed and carried to a later portion of the level, spat out, and jumped on to clear a wall and skip a large portion of the level.

In both cases you use the same mechanics to skip mechanics present in the level and the result is the same: the way the level is played is altered. The intended solution is bypassed. The only difference is that one skips an auto scroller trigger and the other skips an "unskippable" spike trap. Neither level is played as intended. But I think you have to agree that, at least in the second case, the parts all worked as intended. The unforeseen consequence of those perfectly working parts may not have been intended, but they are all working.

But that's where we apparently disagree on matters. Granted, I'm not claiming to be a programmer, but I'd imagine that a "bug" or "glitch" is, by definition, a design flaw...isn't it? Something that shouldn't be in the coding or something coded incorrectly? That's how you get things such as getting hit back through what's supposed to be a sealed doorway and end up at the final part of the game as Kid Link.

Well, no, I would not say a glitch or a bug is a design flaw. Lets make an analogy. Lets say you are building a bridge and the design calls for high quality steel. However, the steel used in creating the bridge was smelted improperly and so the bridge structural integrity is greatly reduced. That would be a glitch/bug: the design is sound but it was executed improperly. On the other hand, if the bridge had been poorly designed it might collapse despite perfect construction using properly crafted materials.

For the Yoshi's Island scenarios, I'd say that the 1-e case is an example similar to this OOT playthrough, while the 2-2 case would be similar to the Metroid example (which I said I was fine with). The difference being one is using a valid mechanic (a simple side jump to reach a platform or capturing an enemy to spit him out later) while the other is exploiting bad coding (passing through what is supposed to be a sealed door or bypassing a trigger which starts an entire process).

And there is the key right there. Passing though the door is exploiting bad coding - something in the game world did not act the way it was designed to. In the Yoshi's Island 1-e skip everything works exactly as designed - the design itself was flawed, allowing for this to happen. This is why I compare it to the Metroid skip and the 2-2 skip - all world objects are working perfectly but in both those cases major skips are possible. The Metroid skip allows you to basically skip a third of the game.

 

[DrOswald]

Literally just made this argument and this is like the third time in this post alone that I'm repeating it. I won't keep doing so forever.

It's not about your community's "rules". Exploits are cheating. By their very nature, they are ignoring the established rules of how the game works and bending them in such a way as to make the game easier to play. Just because your community accepts these exploits as "okay" for your "competition" doesn't mean they stop being exploits.

No, he is not bending any rule. He is not ignoring any established rules. Because if the rule book (the code) says you can do these things. You are making up arbitrary rules on what you think is acceptable and what is not.

I'm not sure why people refuse to understand such a simple concept as this: just because you made up your own rules for how you want to play the game doesn't mean that this instantly becomes the "correct" way to play the game.

I don't think you understand. YOU are the one making up the rules of what the "correct" way to play the game is. Cosmo follows the rules exactly as they are written.

I can make up my own rules for Monopoly and play my friends in a game of Kitty Steals Your Money Monopoly, but no one in their right mind would try and claim that my victory was remotely equal to that of a person who wins the game through the standard rule set.

Well, lets be clear. Once again, Cosmo did win the game through the standard rule set. You are the one insisting that he must adhere to additional rules for it to be legitimate.

And no one has ever claimed that getting any% WR makes you the record holder for any other category - because they are not remotely equal things.

Especially when the rules I change are designed to grant me a huge competitive advantage.

The rules do not give Cosmo or anyone else any sort of competitive advantage. Everyone uses the same rules when they play the any% category. Just because he knows the rules better does not mean it is unfair.

If you want to claim you "beat" a game, then you have to actually BEAT it, meaning that you complete all of its primary content within the rules established by the game and its devs. He did not fulfill that goal, ergo, he didn't beat the game. He beat a fraction of it. >_>

But he did complete the game by the rules established by the game and its devs. You can say he did not all you want, but he completed the game as per the rules of the game. Requiring him to beat everything is not the established rules of the game - that would be adding arbitrary additional rules. And this is done all the time to create different speed running categories. But the Any% category specifically does not add any arbitrary rules.

It's not that I'm against "cheats" persay, but you don't get to say you beat it legitimately if you cheated, sorry. Even when I use cheats in a game, I wouldn't try and say that I totally beat it legit, I'd admit to having cheated to win and (down the road) would eventually try to win legitimately.

Feel free to keep praising him if you wish, you can have your own opinion on things after all. But please, don't insist that I have to respect it too. Because I never will.

And if you are going to say that he cheated you need to give me an actual reason why using glitches and exploits is cheating. You have failed to do so. I am not demanding you respect him, I am demanding that you not call him a cheater without reason. Because you have given no reason exploits and glitches are cheats besides the fact that some people say so. The organized competitive single player gamers of the entire world disagree with you, so at the very least some people say the opposite. Why are you right while everyone in the world wide community of experts on the subject are all wrong?

 

[DrOswald]

In baseball you're clearly not supposed to intentionally walk a guy, but what are they gonna do about it when you do? In football, you really shouldn't just put half of your defenders 50 yards back, but if there's one play left and the score is 19-14, why wouldn't you? It is a clear example of doing whatever it is you have to to win as best as you can as long as the rules allow it. This whole spirit of the game thing is irrelevant to this level or style of play.

The difference is that in both cases, what the team has decided to do falls completely within the rules of the game. There's no rule that says you can't intentionally walk a batter that's dangerous, just as there's no rule that says you can't drop your entire defense back into 50 yard coverage. So long as the pitcher is throwing the ball towards home plate in baseball and the defense has 11 players on the field in football, they can use whatever strategy they want.

What is going on in this video goes outside of the "rules" of the game. Namely: you can walk through solid walls. The only reason you can is because there's no ref to call foul.

Quite simply: it's exploitation of bad coding (a glitch, an error that should not exist) and not simply exploitation of a mechanic (a well thought strategy such as intentionally walking a batter or dropping into deep coverage to prevent the Hail Mary pass).

I think the actual problem here is that we disagree with what the rules actually are. Your camp is arguing that the rules are what the developer intended. My camp is arguing that the rules are what the developer actually wrote.

I would argue that there is absolutely no rule that says you can't clip though that door - if it is not in the rule book, it is not a rule.

 

[t850terminator]

OoT? Meh, Wind Waker FTW...
But, hmm... impressive speedrun...

 

[Darkmantle]

There is some really hardcore cheating justification going on here. I can't believe someone can look me in the face and saying that glitching through a solid object is both not cheating and totally not outside the rules of the game.

I mean it's impressive and all that he can find and repeat said bug to reach the end of the game, but it is still without a doubt an exploit and cheating to beat the game. that fact seems inarguable. Now you can argue about whether or not his accomplishment should still be respected (I think it should), but I am awestruck at the people claiming it's totally legitimate.

You know just to address one of the more common justifications for cheating in this thread, I submit a sport analogy. It's totally possible in rugby to punch someone in the nuts while the ref isn't looking. That is still cheating. You are acting outside the rules and boundaries of the game. In the same way, he CAN glitch through the wall to get to the last Ganon fight, but it's still cheating. The notion that something being possible makes it legal/not cheating is preposterous.

But I will say again, if that's the way he and his want to play, fine, whatever. If they want to play nut-punch rugby, let em, and good for him for being so good at it, but it's still cheating in the context of the game and it's rules.

 

[xX_XDMemeLord69XD_Xx]

Hi i just wanna say Cosmo is a fraud and Biinny can take WR first try if he didn't use mic. Cosmo just got better star rotation, what a fucking cheater

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

We're not talking about a multiplayer game here. Who exactly does exploiting glitches and bugs cheat?

And how can you claim what the intended spirit of the game is? And who are you to come down from on high saying the way he completed it is invalid? The goal for speedrunners is to complete a game as fast as possible using any means within the game available to them. Glitches and bugs in the game are included in that because they are a part of the game. If you want to live by some imaginary and laughable "honour code" when playing single player games then have at it. But don't belittle the achievements of others because they don't follow your imaginary set of rules.

It's obvious the devs never intended for this to be actually possible. And I'd hardly call cheating an achievement.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

Do you not discount people who use the warps in super mario for speed runs? they are skipping entire worlds of content to speed run to the end, does that not bug you? these are called any% speedruns for a reason.

Those are mechanics built in to the game, intended for use by the devs. This is the difference between those who don't cheat, and those who do.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

I can tell you're new to speedrunning. Protip: the whole point is to go fast.

It took a lot of work to find the exploits necessary to achieve that time, and they are by no means easy to do, let alone do consistently and in a timely fashion. And even with glitches, there are still parts of a game you actually have to do.

I'm not disputing or belittling his skill, rather that he is being praised for, what would be under any other circumstances, cheating.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

In any case, I agree with you (despite the Olympics analogy being quite off).

Yeah, not my best one. Probably should have said something like the runner cutting across the big empty space in the middle of the track instead.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Dang, that's pretty darn good for a non-TAS speedrun.

However, I still think the best AND most entertaining speedrun I've ever seen has to be this Doom 3 Nightmare speedrun [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW1F0ZcU_Oc]. It also helps that Doom 3 is incredibly fun to just blaze through, surprisingly enough. If you have a copy of the game, try it sometime.

BTW, that video I linked, if you want to know, the action really kicks into high gear at the 4:42 mark.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

Oh wow, a 200 post thread on Speedrunning?

Oh, it's the old "glitches don't count" argument by people who don't understand how speedrunning works. Dammit, and here I thought we were finally getting the recognition we deserve.

Either way, congrats to Cosmo. Hopefully he can get sub-VC so he can "truly" take the record, although sub-19 is pretty impressive in it's own right.