DrOswald said:
Without watching the video in order to save time, I'm guessing your talking about the piranha plant boss. And that gets back to my point about "what's within the parameters of the game". It's not an exploit to one-shot that guy before he gets made because doing so triggers an in-game event of Kamek flipping out because you killed his buddy before he was ready.
Back to the Poochy level, think back to world 1-2 of the original Mario. I don't consider jumping above the level to skip the entire challenge of the level as being a cheat or a glitch because, at the end, you can get to the secret warp zone by going above the level. As such, it can very easily be argued that you're supposed to be able to do that. Getting so high up on Poochy's level that it removes the entire point/challenge of the level isn't supposed to be possible, there's no reward for getting up there other than bypassing the game's trigger that starts the screen scrolling.
But again, this all stems from me simply believing that these kind of speed-runs aren't that impressive, but as with most things on the internet: that's just my opinion. My personal tastes for speed-runs involve actually completing the minimal requirements for beating a game, not exploiting weaknesses within the game's code. That's why I kept putting so much emphasis on the phrase "what you're supposed to be able to do". You're supposed to be able to travel faster by side-jumping across the world because the side-jump is meant to be a quick-dodge technique and so logically it would be faster than your normal run speed. You're not supposed to be able to pass through a sealed boss' door and end up standing at the end of OOT as child Link. I consider that cheating, and that's why runs like this leave me unimpressed. And again, I understand completely that there are different categories for speed runs, I just don't have a taste for anything other than actually completing the game as it was intended. Does that mean I'd only be impressed by a speed run for 100% completion? Not at all. I just expect (that is, it's in my opinion) that a speed run worthy of holding a record should only count if the person does the bare minimum requirements of a game to play through it from start to finish.
Madmonk brought up Skyrim and that's an easily explainable example. For me to be impressed by a speed-run of Skyrim, I'd assume the player would have to go through the main questline from the start of the game up until Alduin lies dead. I don't expect them to complete all the side missions and guild stories since that's all extra fluff. For OOT, I wouldn't expect a speed-runner to collect every heart piece, kill every golden spider, etc. I'd expect them to just go from one dungeon to the next until Ganondorf lies dead.
Vivi22 said:
I don't recall ever saying that people
had to adhere to my definition of the game's rules. I do recall saying that I was unimpressed by their definition of the rules, however. If warping from the start of a game to the end of a game that has no built-in mechanic specifically designed to allow you to perform such a warp impresses you, well that's just fantastic. I'm glad you enjoyed it. But as I mentioned above: such a thing doesn't impress me. That's all I was saying with my first post in this topic, and from there the conversation evolved with DrOswald specifically asking me what I defined as "cheating", so I've answered that as well. This brought clarification to why I considered this run to be a cheat run, and I'm not impressed by cheaters.
Gxas said:
RJ 17 said:
I'm sorry, and here I thought the entire point of having an open forum such as this was specifically so that people could share their opinions. By your logic, why bother having comment sections for any of these articles at all?
My wonder is to why bother even leaving a negative opinion at all. I do see that negative opinions drove discussion here, but why can't we talk about other ways to shave a few seconds off of his time instead of have the first post basically say, "I don't like this."?
Again, because this is an open forum meant for the sharing of opinions. My opinion is that this is unimpressive and I felt like expressing that.
The comparison between games and real life is to show the difference between what is and isn't cheating, what is "within the spirit of the game" and what isn't (since that was a question specifically asked of my by DrOswald). It's not "within the spirit of the mile-run" to cut between the cones, but because there's no physical barrier actually stopping you from doing so that certainly doesn't mean that you can't just cut between the cones. This is a direct comparison to the game world. It's not "within the spirit of OOT" to be able to back through what's supposed to be a solid wall, but because of a glitch in the coding there's no physical barrier there stopping you from doing so.
But who dictates what the "spirit of the game" is? I would claim that the spirit of the game, by the developers' standards is to have fun. The "spirit of the game" in the speedrunning community is to beat the final boss as fast as possible using rules they have set up for each category of speedrun. If Cosmo has fun with his speed runs, then I'd say he met both requirements. But, again, I am no one to say what the "spirit of the game" is, that is just how I perceive it to be.
"The spirit of the game", in terms of this conversation, has been defined (by those taking part in this conversation) as what is and isn't a valid execution of the game's mechanics. The spirit of every game is to have fun, this is true, but in terms of this conversation, the spirit of the game is what you're supposed to be able to do (i.e. going through the game as the developers intended, which does not include exploiting a weakness in the coding to pass through a wall that's supposed to be solid and end up standing over Ganon's corpse as kid Link).
Perhaps a better question is why do you care so much that I don't find this to be impressive? Why does my opinion on the matter offend you so?
Who said I was offended?
Apparently the same person that told you that I was angry.
Or provoke such a profound curiosity within you? Why do you assume that I'm angry/frustrated about the way this person plays the game, and not simply unimpressed by the way this person plays the game as I've claimed numerous times now? Who gets to dictate what I find to be impressive? You? Why you? Why can't you simply say "I can see why some people wouldn't find this impressive"? So I'll turn your own question back onto you: does my finding this run to be unimpressive affect you in any way? If not, why should you care? Why bother commenting on any of my posts in the first place?
I don't understand why this needs to be here. I told you why I am curious about it. I see all over the place that people leave negative comments on everything. The need to say, "I dislike this" is
rampant everywhere nowadays, and I want to know what the reasoning for this is.
I was like that too, though. I used to just spout, "God, I hate that" to everything. Now? I've been working very hard to keep my negative opinions to myself. If you ask me, I will tell you, but I'm not going around putting things down anymore.
It's a curiosity about human nature nowadays. I want to know why we're so focused on negativity, especially online. What makes it so difficult to just pass up a thread that people have a negative opinion on? That's why I'm here.
Again: it's because we're on an open forum meant for the expression of opinions and ideas. My opinion is that this wasn't impressive, and I felt like expressing that opinion. If you don't like expressing negative opinions about a given topic, then that's great. But my friend, we're all like little snowflakes, each an individual with their own tastes, feelings, and desires. It was my desire to express my opinion that this was unimpressive, just as it was your desire to question why I bother even posting my desire. Quite simply: I felt like it. Don't really need much more of a reason than that.
As you put it, apparently my opinion that this was unimpressive spurred conversation, which is the entire point of these forums. It doesn't matter whether its negative or positive. The point of this article was to impress the readers by saying "This guy beat OOT in less than 19 minutes". And so after reading the story and watching the video, I felt like expressing my opinion that "this was not impressive".
I wouldn't even say that I'm being all that negative. Like you, I try to avoid such topics that would prompt a response. For instance, I really try my best to avoid expressing my opinion on Final Fantasy games beyond FF7, because all I have to say about them is "FF8 sucks and here's why" "FF9 sucks and here's why" "FF10 sucks and here's why", etc. I've said the same thing over and over again to the point that it's grown tiresome to try and explain to others why I really don't like those games. Though every now and then I still get sucked into a conversation about them. Even when that happens, though, I try to keep my venom to a minimum and try to back out of the conversations quickly.
So yeah, to answer your "psychological experiment question", you can simply jot down "because I felt like it."