Spider-Man Joining the Marvel Cinematic Universe - Update

[Gizmo1990]

Personaly, for all the ways this could have happened, I think that this is actually the worst simply because of this one detail:

Sony will "continue to finance, distribute, own and have final creative control of the Spider-Man films."

I have no faith in Sony to make good creative desisions with Spider-Man. I can only hope that when they say they will collaborate with Marvel when doing there own movie it is simply business talk for Sony has the rights but Marvel tells them what to do now.

EDIT:

Now I am just pissed off this is happening. MArvel has moved release dates for some of its movies so that Spider-Man can keep up with the MCU which means we don't get an Inhumans movie until after Infinity War pt 2. Inhumans is far more interesting to me then a third Spider-Man reboot.

 

[Dimitriov]

Cool, maybe Sony can impart a bit of their more common man themes from their movies to try and stem Marvels, how do I put this delicately, fascist view of heroes and normals.

The only political themes in any of the MCU is purely anti-establishment, anti-government, pro-privacy and pro-individual rights. This is an arc that culminates at the end of Captain America: The Winter Soldier where the big super sekrit quasi-governmental police force that is trying to put spy cameras on all potential "problems" gets infiltrated and then taken down by Captain America.

This is not anywhere near approaching a fascist political theme. Quite the opposite, it hews strongly to classical Liberalism.

Snip

Uh, that's all well and good, but you clearly have no idea what Fascism is. Which is all I think that he was saying.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Oh! Oh! Another good idea: Spider-Woman!

Heh, your scenario was too meta, but I hadn't thought of an XX Spidey. I'd go with Jessica Drew, though, as I love the red/yellow design with her black hair.

(if I could pick one character to be effectively replaced as far as gender goes, it'd be Thor Odinson - just because Lady 'title?' Thor looks so damn cool)

I'm still kinda hoping Valkyrie turns up in Thor 3, for kinda the same reason. (>.> that and the current Thor who's not Thor but... GAH! PRONOUNS! She's not as fun as Valkyrie or Angela, still doing the 'learning the ropes' thing which is done to death and depressingly the high point of the book is how terrible a time Man-Thor is having.)

OT: Don Glover as Miles Morales, there, all is well and the Samuel L Jackson full circle moment swings around again. Seriously, even as a standalone movie, Miles and his relationship with his uncle would make an AWESOME movie (you'd probably need a younger actor but still, win!).

 

[Zontar]

Now I am just pissed off this is happening. MArvel has moved release dates for some of its movies so that Spider-Man can keep up with the MCU which means we don't get an Inhumans movie until after Infinity War pt 2. Inhumans is far more interesting to me then a third Spider-Man reboot.

Agreed, I was also looking forward to Inhumans and I just can't make myself care for spider man, not even an MCU spider man. I think this may be the first MCU movie I'll be passing.

 

[Toadfish1]

Cool, maybe Sony can impart a bit of their more common man themes from their movies to try and stem Marvels, how do I put this delicately, fascist view of heroes and normals.

The only political themes in any of the MCU is purely anti-establishment, anti-government, pro-privacy and pro-individual rights. This is an arc that culminates at the end of Captain America: The Winter Soldier where the big super sekrit quasi-governmental police force that is trying to put spy cameras on all potential "problems" gets infiltrated and then taken down by Captain America.

This is not anywhere near approaching a fascist political theme. Quite the opposite, it hews strongly to classical Liberalism.

Snip

Uh, that's all well and good, but you clearly have no idea what Fascism is. Which is all I think that he was saying.

Leadership and heroism are traits that are inherent in certain individuals, and the common man is not to be asked nor is he to meddle in the affairs of those who lead, and those who lead do not need his permission or agreement, merely his cooperation.

There's more to fascism than "that thing you call people who disagree with you".

 

[mysecondlife]

I lost interest in Marvel universe after Thor (urgh, gross) and Avengers (alright, did not live up to hype).
But Guardian of the Galaxy was really, really good. So.. yay?

 

[Dimitriov]

Cool, maybe Sony can impart a bit of their more common man themes from their movies to try and stem Marvels, how do I put this delicately, fascist view of heroes and normals.

The only political themes in any of the MCU is purely anti-establishment, anti-government, pro-privacy and pro-individual rights. This is an arc that culminates at the end of Captain America: The Winter Soldier where the big super sekrit quasi-governmental police force that is trying to put spy cameras on all potential "problems" gets infiltrated and then taken down by Captain America.

This is not anywhere near approaching a fascist political theme. Quite the opposite, it hews strongly to classical Liberalism.

Snip

Uh, that's all well and good, but you clearly have no idea what Fascism is. Which is all I think that he was saying.

Leadership and heroism are traits that are inherent in certain individuals, and the common man is not to be asked nor is he to meddle in the affairs of those who lead, and those who lead do not need his permission or agreement, merely his cooperation.

There's more to fascism than "that thing you call people who disagree with you".

fascism
noun
1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.


How that relates to superhumans running around ignoring the governments of the world and saving people's lives, only you know, I guess.

Edit: and because this is silly I shall add an on-topic comment:

I am cautiously excited for new Spiderman without Andrew Garfield.

 

[Toadfish1]

Cool, maybe Sony can impart a bit of their more common man themes from their movies to try and stem Marvels, how do I put this delicately, fascist view of heroes and normals.

The only political themes in any of the MCU is purely anti-establishment, anti-government, pro-privacy and pro-individual rights. This is an arc that culminates at the end of Captain America: The Winter Soldier where the big super sekrit quasi-governmental police force that is trying to put spy cameras on all potential "problems" gets infiltrated and then taken down by Captain America.

This is not anywhere near approaching a fascist political theme. Quite the opposite, it hews strongly to classical Liberalism.

Snip

Uh, that's all well and good, but you clearly have no idea what Fascism is. Which is all I think that he was saying.

Leadership and heroism are traits that are inherent in certain individuals, and the common man is not to be asked nor is he to meddle in the affairs of those who lead, and those who lead do not need his permission or agreement, merely his cooperation.

There's more to fascism than "that thing you call people who disagree with you".

fascism
noun
1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.


How that relates to superhumans running around ignoring the governments of the world and saving people's lives, only you know, I guess.

Edit: and because this is silly I shall add an on-topic comment:

I am cautiously excited for new Spiderman without Andrew Garfield.

Yes, a system that defies a singular explanation to this day and any political scientist will laugh in your face if you give a summary in less than a paragraph, sure can be summed by by the online dictionary.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Name one significant direct action towards stopping a bad guy, ever, from a non-Superhero. Now, by Superhero, I mean a character with a superhero name, so no using Fury, Black Widow, Falcon, War Machine, Hawkeye or Starlord, abnd by direct, I mean they did it, not they told a Superhero to do it. Iron Man 1 - soldiers all get blown the fuck up, only Tony can stop the terrorists. Climax of Iron man 1 - same deal, but with SHIELD agents instead of soldiers. Iron Man 2 - the entire army is virtually powerless to stop Whiplash and have their entire system completely taken over, only Tony can stop him, the people just run screaming and die. Captain America - Cap breaks ranks, defies his superiors and goes in on a reckless and stupid mission that works. Avengers - we all know the scenes, the cops are utterly freaking clueless to properly evacuate in a time of crisis, they need a man from 1941 to tell them how to deal with post 9/11 attacks on New York. Cap 2 - regular SHIELD agents in the climax get absolutely butchered by the Winter Soldier in nothing flat. GOTG, the Nova corps are just tossed aside by Ronan like tissue paper when he gets bored. Hell, even in Thor 2, the trained Asgardian soldiers are just demolished by the Dark Elves, putting up less than a token resistance. I don't think they even managed to kill one.

Point being, that in these movies, the people whose job it is to handle things, never do. The police never manage to successfully stop a crime, the army was losing bad until this one soldier broke ranks and started turning the tide by ignoring what people told him to, hell, the entire elected and approved protection agency turns out to have been hijacked by Nazis. Heroism is not something that can come to those who are trained for it, elected to it, or expected to deal with it, but only those few who deem themselves the protectors, and ignore all kinds of authority or reason beyond what they think they should do.

Contrast to ASM. Who saves Spidey from the Lizard? Chief of Police, there to do his job of shutting down the dangerous criminal in the OsCorp building. Who stops Electro the first time around? Spidey saved and protected all the people and prevented any fatalities, but Electro was actually stopped by the NYFD who dealt with a problem in Time Square how they are trained to do it. Who helped Peter to take down Electro and save the cities power grid? The person whose job it is to do just that, Gwen Stacey. These movies are about Spider-Man helping out and being helped out by the everyday heroes.

I don't think fascism is the word you meant, but I respect the point you're trying to make.

Not sure I agree though; going by the Captain America one, it's not just Cap who turned the tide it's the whole Howling Commandos who are normal dudes (hell, so are Black Widow, Hawkeye, Nick Fury and (sorta) Star-Lord) the fact they get a 'code-name' doesn't change the fact Dum-Dum Dugan, Falsworth, Gabe Jones all those guys are just normal people in war-time who happen to be particularly good at soldiering.

Same for Fury and Black Widow, yeah we can call them superheroes but that whole bit where they stop Hydra? That's just them doing their jobs, the fallout of which is shown in the Agents of SHIELD show. The cops in Avengers were in an extremely unusual circumstance, not knowing the best course of action doesn't speak badly of them and since Cap has gone from the middle/end of an enormous super-normal conflict straight into another super-normal conflict, its not exactly weird that he'd have a cooler head (though fortunate New York is still how he remembers it).

Thor 2 is a weird one since apart from Thor hitting Malekith, I can't think of ANY Dark Elves being taken down: It certainly wasn't just Thor taking down their whole army. Ironman 1 was more Tony trying to clean up his own mistakes and while SHIELD probably could have helped they'd need to know to get involved and they didn't really get to arrive until it had been resolved. Ironman 2 is more the consequences of trying to weaponise the Ironman suit (they didn't show a very even discussion of the pros/cons of doing so I admit) and the difficulties in organising a response is evident.

I can see why you'd be against the trope of 'authority is useless' being so prevalent but given how many far greater problems ASM as a franchise had, I'm more comfortable with Marvel handling Spiderman >.>. Plus, y'know, Ironman 3 did it where Stark was the 'authority' and got shut down so he needed that kid Hayley to get back in the game, Thor 2 could say that Asgard as superheroes were shut down and needed humans to help stop Malekith's reality warping, Winter Soldier needed the 'ordinary' SHIELD agents to repel Hydra. So it's not super prevalent, I think part of it might be your own political views.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Good news, but sucks Cap Marvel, Black Panther and Inhumans have been pushed back. Id rather watch those than another spiderman movie, we have had 5 of them already so dont mind waiting.

 

[Dimitriov]

Yes, a system that defies a singular explanation to this day and any political scientist will laugh in your face if you give a summary in less than a paragraph, sure can be summed by by the online dictionary.

*Sigh* I really didn't think I had to write an essay for you. And no, actually, most political scientists I know aren't assholes. Also short definitions have many uses. That quick one summarised some of they key points that are almost always associated with fascism.

Namely: authoritarian leadership, nationalism, militarism, and government control over industry.

I really see no need to delve deeper into any of those points because none of that has anything to do with what you were accusing the MCU of.

Certainly the idea that "leadership and heroism are traits that are inherent in certain individuals, and the common man is not to be asked nor is he to meddle in the affairs of those who lead, and those who lead do not need his permission or agreement, merely his cooperation" can be understood to be a part of fascism is reasonable. But none of that is core to the ideology and any political scientist would, I am sure, politely suggest that you were missing something if that was your only definition for fascism.

And since those key points are all effectively shown to be inherently flawed in the Marvel Movies, and individualism is indeed lauded (even if it is superhuman individualism), it seems rather disingenuous (or more likely mistaken) to try and term the films as having, in any way, a fascist viewpoint. In fact it seems as if you are yourself merely using fascism as that thing you call movies you don't like (to paraphrase you).

 

[laggyteabag]

Spider-Man joining the MCU?


I am so happy for this. I love Spider-Man, and as much as I liked Andrew Garfield as the character, the chances of his appearance are slim to none. All I can say though, is he done goofed. He blabbed about Sony being shit, and they kicked him out of the role and shattered his dream of being an Avenger. Oops.

I still like the guy, but he done goofed. Now I bet he is kicking himself over this.

Now I am interested in seeing who they are going to cast as Peter Parker, or who knows, they might go for Miles Morales instead.

 

[hermes]

I am going to say this here. As much trust as I have in Marvel Studios competence, I believe it is pretty much impossible they make a better origin movie than the first half of Spiderman (2002)

 

[UsefulPlayer 1]

Why does Sony want "final creative control" so much?

Who looks at the Avengers or Captain America 2 or Guardians of the Galaxy and thinks "Yeah, I want a less successful film."

 

[The_Darkness]

Name one significant direct action towards stopping a bad guy, ever, from a non-Superhero. Now, by Superhero, I mean a character with a superhero name, so no using Fury, Black Widow, Falcon, War Machine, Hawkeye or Starlord, abnd by direct, I mean they did it, not they told a Superhero to do it.

Colonel Chester Philips, Captain America 1.

The attack on Red Skull's base was his assault - Steve Rogers was his ace in the hole, but the assault was organised, with a large force led by the Colonel. Furthermore, the assault was only made possible by Chester's interrogation of Arnim Zola. He was Cap's commanding officer for the latter half of that movie, and he was just doing his job. (Arguably, so was Cap once he'd actually been hired rather than being paraded around on stage. Though you did specify no superheroes, so Chester fits your requirements better.)

On topic:

I'm... reserving judgement on this.

I don't trust Sony because of how they've handled the Amazing Spiderman movies (and please tell me that Kurtzman and Orci are out). I also don't particularly trust Marvel with Spider-man, based on their track record with the comics of late (starting with OMD, but culminating in the train-wreck of wasted potential that is Spider-verse). So... yeah, I'm not thrilled. It might be awesome, but I have some nagging doubts.

And please, skip the origin story. Everyone knows Spiderman got his powers from a spider-bite, and got his Uncle killed - we really don't need to see it happen for the 3rd time...

 

[mecegirl]

I'm personally not that happy about all this. I mean, I'm sure this will lead to a decent Spider-Man movie, maybe the best one made so far, and I'm happy for all the Spidey fans out there. But really, a third iteration of Spider-Man this soon? And by doing that and slotting that film into the crowded MCU schedule, it means other never before seen heroes such as Black Panther, Captain Marvel and the Inhumans get pushed back.

This means that their roles in the big films (Infinity War parts 1&2) might very well be negatively impacted also, since Black Panther now won't hit before part 1 and Inhumans won't hit before part 2.

So to me, this feels like a case of sticking with the safe, the popular, the known quantity, instead of continuing on with bringing lesser known characters to the fore, which is what the MCU has been built on. I wouldn't have minded if they came to this agreement and then introduced Spidey in Phase 4, after the already announced films, but to push back these new, interesting properties (including their first black leading man and their first leading woman) just feels a bit off to me.

And that's not to mention Sony retaining final creative control. Yeah, as others have said, they will likely play ball with Marvel and do more or less whatever Kevin Feige tells them to do, but there's still the potential for a sudden dip in quality control.

Agreeing with all of this. I could wait on a new Spiderman movie. I've been spidered out. His inclusion in this line up feels so forced. They are literally pushing back four movies just for this character. Why?

 

[FakDendor]

I'm a bit apprehensive about all of this. They are disrupting their movie schedule to shoehorn in a character they didn't create (in the cinematic sense) nor originally plan for, and that they don't have full creative control over.

That feels a lot like dropping a large turd on the side of your well-crafted meal. It doesn't sit well, and it absolutely ruins the effect.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I'm a bit disappointed. Marvel doesn't need Spider-man. They've been doing great with lesser-known heroes and are making films for characters that wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell otherwise.

What really worries me is that Sony still gets creative control and can make their own movies with the new iteration of the character. Then Marvel will be even more associated with the garbled messes Sony shits out.

 

[blueshark217]

It's time again Community/Childish Gambino fans. Donald Glover for Spider-Man!