Star Wars Force Awakens Spoiler Filled discussion thread (no spoiler tags, you've been warned)

[DefunctTheory]

I've been lurking the sub-reddit too, mostly for the theories and such. But you're right, there are very few people on there who are upset about the movie.

There's a few, but even those few seem more annoyed at Reddit than the film. "ROAR CIRCLEJERK ROAR" goes the usual cry of the person who feels they hold a minority opinion in their sub reddit of choice.

Have you read any of the novelization "spoilers"? The stuff that wasn't in the film?

Like Kylo Ren recognizing Rey?

Yeah, I am going to hold those little differences as clues to the truth rather than canon. Apparently the book was based off an earlier version of the script, so who knows what may have been changed. The main thing I hope that isn't canon from the book is Ren knowing Vader was redeemed. I like the idea that he either doesn't know or has been convinced Vader's redemption is a lie (probably Luke's).

Does Kylo Ren's motivation even work if he knows about Vader's redemption? How does that make sense in the book?

I mean, I guess maybe that's why he's so keen on killing his Dad and resisting the light side? Maybe he figures that if a son can redeem his father, it works the other way round, so the only way he's safe is if Han is dead. I guess that does make sense, but its really weird...

 

[Fappy]

Sounds like Phantom Menace might be a film more to your enjoyment.

Low blow, man. Low fucking blow.

I was with you until this point, but that's just cruel.

Yes, he's being a dismissive tosser. Surprise surprise.

The fact that I liked this movie isn't enough.
The fact that I like the character I'm criticizing isn't enough.
The fact I just watched ANH and ESB within the past two days, therefore am providing specific examples to support the points he's dismissing isn't enough.

Nothing short of "It was the most amazeballs things I've ever had the privilege of witnessing!" will win me points. I said that I enjoyed the fucking movie enough to pay for another ticket to see it a second time. I just think Rey's learning curve was a little too flat. I'm a monster.

You're supposed to buy three tickets to the movie, dude. Every true Star Wars fan knows that!

 

[Fappy]

I've been lurking the sub-reddit too, mostly for the theories and such. But you're right, there are very few people on there who are upset about the movie.

There's a few, but even those few seem more annoyed at Reddit than the film. "ROAR CIRCLEJERK ROAR" goes the usual cry of the person who feels they hold a minority opinion in their sub reddit of choice.

Have you read any of the novelization "spoilers"? The stuff that wasn't in the film?

Like Kylo Ren recognizing Rey?

Yeah, I am going to hold those little differences as clues to the truth rather than canon. Apparently the book was based off an earlier version of the script, so who knows what may have been changed. The main thing I hope that isn't canon from the book is Ren knowing Vader was redeemed. I like the idea that he either doesn't know or has been convinced Vader's redemption is a lie (probably Luke's).

Does Kylo Ren's motivation even work if he knows about Vader's redemption? How does that make sense in the book?

I mean, I guess maybe that's why he's so keen on killing his Dad and resisting the light side? Maybe he figures that if a son can redeem his father, it works the other way round, so the only way he's safe is if Han is dead. I guess that does make sense, but its really weird...

Yeah, that's why I think that's not the case in the finalized version of the script. The irony of him becoming the antithesis of Vader while trying to emulate him is far more compelling than the alternative, imo.

 

[Fappy]

I've been lurking the sub-reddit too, mostly for the theories and such. But you're right, there are very few people on there who are upset about the movie.

There's a few, but even those few seem more annoyed at Reddit than the film. "ROAR CIRCLEJERK ROAR" goes the usual cry of the person who feels they hold a minority opinion in their sub reddit of choice.

Have you read any of the novelization "spoilers"? The stuff that wasn't in the film?

Like Kylo Ren recognizing Rey?

Yeah, I am going to hold those little differences as clues to the truth rather than canon. Apparently the book was based off an earlier version of the script, so who knows what may have been changed. The main thing I hope that isn't canon from the book is Ren knowing Vader was redeemed. I like the idea that he either doesn't know or has been convinced Vader's redemption is a lie (probably Luke's).

Wow, that would really ruin things for me. Why would he still hold Vader in such high regard if that were the case? Surely he'd see Vader as weak if he knew about his redemption. I guess it could serve as another kind of motivation for him, that he sees the light side as so corrupting it even got to his hero but they seem to be going for a "I wanna be just like Vader when I grow up" kinda thing which is an angle I like. Why would he look to Vader for staying on the path of Darkness if he knew Vader fell from it though?

Anyway, any other big ones I should know? I tend to hate novelisations unless you'd recommend it as anything more than a companion piece I'd rather just read the spoilers. Even if you had a link that'd be cool.

There are a few lists going around on the clickbait sites if you just google "Differences in Force Awakens novel". There are a few threads on the Star Wars sub-reddit too.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Yes, he's being a dismissive tosser. Surprise surprise.

Nothing short of "It was the most amazeballs things I've ever had the privilege of witnessing!" will win me points.

Therefore, I'm a monster who needs to be taught love and happiness.

Yes, clearly you are the VICTIM of dismissive arguments, and are supplying none of your own. You poor soul.

I'll say it again. You are letting your irritation at what you perceive as unwarranted or excessive praise lead you into hyperbolic slams and ridiculous statements.

And for the record, I watched all three films recently too, chum. My memory of them is as fresh as yours. Oddly, I do not recall Luke being positioned as "a loser" by either the script or the direction, so it's possible you were watching some secret unedited director's cut.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

...mischaracterization will be a running theme throughout your post.

Frankly, Luke is treated like a loser throughout ANH and ESB.

I'm speechless. If you cannot perceive the degree to which you're reaching at this point, we've long since flown past the point where we can have a productive exchange. This is boggling.

I've cited specific scenes throughout my posts that support my assertion over Luke's portrayal. You haven't made a single specific counter-point. What's "I'm speechless" if not dismissive and an excuse not to engage? You claim to "know" I hated the movie when I do not. What is that if not mischaracterization?

I'm ranting because I'm ticked off by the glib, dismissive arguments being used to defend the movie.

And here we go. By admission, you are polarized, and ranting. For every 'glib dismissive' argument you feel you've been forced to address (for some reason) you are now firing back with several of your own.

I've afforded you much more thoroughness and much more courtesy than you've afforded me. I'm not the one who's going to end his post with a, irony-of-all-ironies, glib and dismissive: "The Phantom Menace may be more your pace! Hardy-har-har!

This is the first time I've been forced to side with the "I'm no miss soggy knees!" crowd because the other has been so trigger-happy. I loved Mad Max: Fury Road, but I'm being told I'm intimidated by strong female leads. Right...

The fuck? I said nothing of the sort. Get off your cross.

You first.

What are we looking forward to?

I have no idea, and neither do you. I usually withhold judgment on things I haven't seen yet, but you appear quite comfortable. You summarily hand wave the question of cliff hangers or keeping things unknown from one movie to another, suggesting the film should "stand on its own", presumably with all plot points nicely tied off with a bow by the time the credits roll. Maybe a nice medal ceremony. Sounds like Phantom Menace might be a film more to your enjoyment.

A cliff hanger is "What happens next?" Even fans have admitted they're only speculating regarding the politics driving the plot. Yes, there is such a thing as under-explained and when a bunch of shit seems even more "magic" than the standard space-magic and characters contradict their own characterization (Finn, a brainwashed stormtrooper, acts like a regular guy. Why?), that's not me needing everything spoon-fed.

You can give me a blank sheet of paper and I can fill in the blanks, sure. But it's bad storytelling if the audience has to do half the explaining for themselves. Basic plot mechanics don't benefit from being ambiguous. This is an adventure serial, not fucking Goddard.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Wow, that would really ruin things for me. Why would he still hold Vader in such high regard if that were the case? Surely he'd see Vader as weak if he knew about his redemption. I guess it could serve as another kind of motivation for him, that he sees the light side as so corrupting it even got to his hero but they seem to be going for a "I wanna be just like Vader when I grow up" kinda thing which is an angle I like. Why would he look to Vader for staying on the path of Darkness if he knew Vader fell from it though?

"I will finish what you started".

It would suggest to me that he wants to show that he can succeed where Vader failed. And I don't think Ben Solo necessarily would view Vader's "fall to the light" as evidence of a wretched character flaw, given he feels the same pull himself. He might view Vader as a tragic hero. Adam Driver has said in interviews that Kylo Ren and the First Order view themselves as the good guys, as performing necessary evils for the good of the galaxy. I don't think he's necessarily of the MWAHAHA WE MUST BE ONLY OF THE PUREST EVIL stripe.

Anyway, any other big ones I should know? I tend to hate novelisations unless you'd recommend it as anything more than a companion piece I'd rather just read the spoilers. Even if you had a link that'd be cool.

Just contextual stuff about the state of the galaxy, how small the resistance is, stuff like that. Kylo knowing who Rey is was the big one.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I've cited specific scenes throughout my posts that support my assertion over Luke's portrayal. You haven't made a single specific counter-point. What's "I'm speechless" if not dismissive and an excuse not to engage? You claim to "know" I hated the movie when I do not. What is that if not mischaracterization?

I'm not going to "counter point" an absolutely ludicrous assertion, Dazzle. "LUKE IS A LOSER IN THE FIRST TWO FILMS". He's the central protagonist. It's a ridiculous statement, and it merits a dismissive response. A less ridiculous way to frame your argument would have been "Luke is shown to have a quick temper and a lack of patience, characteristics he shared with his father". But you chose "Loser" because you felt it made a stronger argument, then act aggrieved when said argument is not shown respect. At some point you're going to need to recognize that how you express yourself determines how people respond to you.

You first.

I'm neither on a cross, nor did I suggest you were accusing me of "misogyny". What a strange thing to haul into the discussion. Can you account for that? Did I claim you were "intimidated by a strong female lead"?

Yes, there is such a thing an under-explained and when a bunch of shit seems even more "magic" than the standard space-magic...

And this is a simple point of disagreement. You seem to believe there is a "standard" space magic. Like we can assume Rey is a level 7 Force User and she doesn't get Mind Influence before level 13, or something. Rather than the completely abstract mysticism that was constantly put to new uses which each film in the Original Trilogy. That you are attempting to apply limitations and structure to said abstract mysticism when it has never had any is what I find puzzling and impossible to reply meaningfully to. I know you feel I'm snarking excessively at you, and perhaps I am, but you're literally in a forum angrily debating the finer points of space magic. Do you not find it slightly bemusing?

 

[Dazzle Novak]

I've cited specific scenes throughout my posts that support my assertion over Luke's portrayal. You haven't made a single specific counter-point. What's "I'm speechless" if not dismissive and an excuse not to engage? You claim to "know" I hated the movie when I do not. What is that if not mischaracterization?

I'm not going to "counter point" an absolutely ludicrous assertion, Dazzle. "LUKE IS A LOSER IN THE FIRST TWO FILMS". He's the central protagonist. It's a ridiculous statement, and it merits a dismissive response. A less ridiculous way to frame your argument would have been "Luke is shown to have a quick temper and a lack of patience, characteristics he shared with his father". But you chose "Loser" because you felt it made a stronger argument, then act aggrieved when said argument is not shown respect. At some point you're going to need to recognize that how you express yourself determines how people respond to you.

You do know the original definition of "anti-hero" was a protagonist who lacked positive heroic traits? Shinji is the protagonist of NGE. He also masturbates onto another character's comatose body. Labeling Shinji anything less than "Bad Ass" must merit a dismissive response in your eyes, right? Shinji gets to pilot the coolest giant robot, so that must cancel out how he's a whiny, indecisive basket-case, no?

Protagonist =/= hero. There are villain protagonists, edgy antiheroes, loser protagonists (think Seth Rogen movies) across a wide spectrum.

I said "loser" because he gets flat-out bullied and intimidated as Mos Eisley. He responds to a threatening, "I don't like you, kid!" with a timid, "I'm sorry" before getting shoved to the ground. I said "loser" because he gets friend-zoned by the princess only to have his one passionate kiss (which was already a ploy to make Han jealous) invalidated by the reveal she's his sister. I said "loser" because every kid wanted to be Han Solo over Luke Skywalker before Return of the Jedi.

You're wrong. Factually incorrect. Have you watched the old trilogy recently? I have.

You first.

I'm neither on a cross, nor did I suggest you were accusing me of "misogyny". What a strange thing to haul into the discussion. Can you account for that? Did I claim you were "intimidated by a strong female lead"?

If you bothered to actually read for comprehension, you'd see I was explicitly alluding to other arguments on the topic I've had with other people. Please, stop this tit-for-tat.

Yes, there is such a thing an under-explained and when a bunch of shit seems even more "magic" than the standard space-magic...

And this is a simple point of disagreement. You seem to believe there is a "standard" space magic. Like we can assume Rey is a level 7 Force User and she doesn't get Mind Influence before level 13, or something. Rather than the completely abstract mysticism that was constantly put to new uses which each film in the Original Trilogy. That you are attempting to apply limitations and structure to said abstract mysticism when it has never had any is what I find puzzling and impossible to reply meaningfully to. I know you feel I'm snarking excessively at you, and perhaps I am, but you're literally in a forum angrily debating the finer points of space magic. Do you not find it slightly bemusing?

There is "standard space-magic": The "Force" as portrayed in the OT which requires training to be wielded effectively.

I'm done. If you don't see my point isn't how strong the protagonist is or isn't, but rather whether or not I felt they're challenged by the obstacles set before them, we're spinning our wheels. Luke had to "struggle" (albeit, movie-time struggle) before he could do basic shit. Rey reverse mind rapes the antagonist because the plot needed her to at that moment and she's "special".

Even magic has to have limits. Else, there's no tension. Whenever the good guy's in a bind, just pull another ability out of their ass. That's dramatic, right?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

You do know the original definition of "anti-hero" was a protagonist who lacked positive heroic traits?

From TV Tropes article on anti-heroes.

Han Solo is an Anti-Hero, most vividly seen by comparing him to Luke Skywalker, the obvious hero (which also makes him The Lancer). At the end of the first movie, he has a Big Damn Hero moment. From there, he moves more toward the standard hero as time goes on. In contrast, Boba Fett, who was depicted as a villain in the movies, is portrayed more as an Anti-Hero in the Expanded Universe. While he's still the Badass bounty hunter who won't hesitate to disintegrate you if somebody is willing to pay him for it, Fett does have a very loosely defined code of honor and apparently has a soft spot for orphans and the oppressed, and will often go out of his way to help them. Examples include him giving money to charity and saving an alien species from extinction for a hundred credits (it's even implied that he gave their money back).

Since "you're done", I'll just say you have an extraordinarily non-traditional method of interpreting fiction, and we'll leave it at that.

 

[kris40k]

Does Kylo Ren's motivation even work if he knows about Vader's redemption? How does that make sense in the book?

I mean, I guess maybe that's why he's so keen on killing his Dad and resisting the light side? Maybe he figures that if a son can redeem his father, it works the other way round, so the only way he's safe is if Han is dead. I guess that does make sense, but its really weird...

What is cooking my noodle is if Kylo Ren is looking to his dead grandfather for guidance, "I feel the callling of the light" and so on, why doesn't Hayden Christensen's blue glowey ass show up and say, "Yeah, so did I. Go to the light, you dumbass..."

Anakin knows how to return, as shown in Ep 6, and Qui-Gon was able to return approx 20 years after his death when he talked to Yoda in Ep 3. Kylo is force sensitive, so he should be able to communicate with him like the others did with Luke.

Could have saved a lot of trouble.[footnote]But I guess we wouldn't have a movie then[/footnote]

 

[BloatedGuppy]

What is cooking my noodle is if Kylo Ren is looking to his dead grandfather for guidance, "I feel the callling of the light" and so on, why doesn't Hayden Christensen's blue glowey ass show up and say, "Yeah, so did I. Go to the light, you dumbass..."

Anakin knows how to return, as shown in Ep 6, and Qui-Gon was able to return approx 20 years after his death when he talked to Yoda in Ep 3. Kylo is force sensitive, so he should be able to communicate with him like the others did with Luke.

This is absolutely nothing more than empty speculation, but have we ever heard of Dark Side Force users talking to Force ghosts before? It's possible it's a uniquely Jedi thing, and requires a measure of calmness/serenity.

Mind you they're always popping up out of nowhere to talk to Luke like bad pennies, so maybe that's malarkey. Still. I'm going with "Jedi specific thing".

 

[wizzy555]

What is cooking my noodle is if Kylo Ren is looking to his dead grandfather for guidance, "I feel the callling of the light" and so on, why doesn't Hayden Christensen's blue glowey ass show up and say, "Yeah, so did I. Go to the light, you dumbass..."

Anakin knows how to return, as shown in Ep 6, and Qui-Gon was able to return approx 20 years after his death when he talked to Yoda in Ep 3. Kylo is force sensitive, so he should be able to communicate with him like the others did with Luke.

This is absolutely nothing more than empty speculation, but have we ever heard of Dark Side Force users talking to Force ghosts before? It's possible it's a uniquely Jedi thing, and requires a measure of calmness/serenity.

Mind you they're always popping up out of nowhere to talk to Luke like bad pennies, so maybe that's malarkey. Still. I'm going with "Jedi specific thing".

In things like KOTOR dark-side ghosts are more common than light-side ghosts. However in the clone wars series they suggest that dark side ghosts are mostly echoes of their hate/emotions rather than the true soul.

So it depends how far you take expanded EU canon.

It's also possible the original trilogy ghosts have dispersed into the force by now.

 

[DefunctTheory]

What is cooking my noodle is if Kylo Ren is looking to his dead grandfather for guidance, "I feel the callling of the light" and so on, why doesn't Hayden Christensen's blue glowey ass show up and say, "Yeah, so did I. Go to the light, you dumbass..."

Anakin knows how to return, as shown in Ep 6, and Qui-Gon was able to return approx 20 years after his death when he talked to Yoda in Ep 3. Kylo is force sensitive, so he should be able to communicate with him like the others did with Luke.

Could have saved a lot of trouble.[footnote]But I guess we wouldn't have a movie then[/footnote]

This is absolutely nothing more than empty speculation, but have we ever heard of Dark Side Force users talking to Force ghosts before? It's possible it's a uniquely Jedi thing, and requires a measure of calmness/serenity.

Mind you they're always popping up out of nowhere to talk to Luke like bad pennies, so maybe that's malarkey. Still. I'm going with "Jedi specific thing".

In universe, my guess is that Force Ghost can only communicate with people they mattered to in Life. Luke can talk to his Dad, Yoda, and Obi-Wan because they have a connection. Ol' Ben Skywalker, despite what he thinks, has zero connection to those three, and thus can't talk to them.

Of course, we all know the real reason - Force Ghost that can talk to anyone strong with the force is a game breaking ability that causes more problems in the story then it fixes.

EDIT:

In things like KOTOR dark-side ghosts are more common than light-side ghosts. However in the clone wars series they suggest that dark side ghosts are mostly echoes of their hate/emotions rather than the true soul.

So it depends how far you take expanded EU canon.

In pure canon, only light side users (NOT Jedi) can become force ghost, and the only known force ghost are the weird theater masked ladies, Yoda, Obi Wan, and Anakin Skywalker.

In the EU, its a toss up and every things game. No real rules or limits.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

You do know the original definition of "anti-hero" was a protagonist who lacked positive heroic traits?

From TV Tropes article on anti-heroes.

Han Solo is an Anti-Hero, most vividly seen by comparing him to Luke Skywalker, the obvious hero (which also makes him The Lancer). At the end of the first movie, he has a Big Damn Hero moment. From there, he moves more toward the standard hero as time goes on. In contrast, Boba Fett, who was depicted as a villain in the movies, is portrayed more as an Anti-Hero in the Expanded Universe. While he's still the Badass bounty hunter who won't hesitate to disintegrate you if somebody is willing to pay him for it, Fett does have a very loosely defined code of honor and apparently has a soft spot for orphans and the oppressed, and will often go out of his way to help them. Examples include him giving money to charity and saving an alien species from extinction for a hundred credits (it's even implied that he gave their money back).

Since "you're done", I'll just say you have an extraordinarily non-traditional method of interpreting fiction, and we'll leave it at that.

TVTropes is a Wiki. It's user-edited. The User for that entry is using the term as it's commonly used now: to describe gruff heroes like Wolverine. I was using the classical definition. Like from Merriam-Webster:

antihero
play


noun | an?ti?he?ro | \ˈan-t?-ˌh?-(&#716r?, ˈan-ˌt?-, -ˌhir-(&#716?\



Simple Definition of antihero

Popularity: Bottom 40% of words

1

: a main character in a book, play, movie, etc., who does not have the usual good qualities that are expected in a hero

Hence, my "original" qualification. That "lack" can be the presence of vices or the absence of positive heroic qualities. Being a vicious dick and being cowardly, for example, are both antiheroic traits.

Also, you have an extraordinary knack for disregarding 95% of my posts to hark on the one point you think you've won. Almost disingenuous, really.

At least lose the argument gracefully, man.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Also, you have an extraordinary knack for disregarding 95% of my posts to hark on the one point you think you've won. Almost disingenuous, really.

At least lose the argument gracefully, man.

I thought you were "done"? Was that just a "last word" thing? Why would I spent a lot of time replying to you?

Tony Soprano is an anti-hero. Luke Skywalker is not. Amusingly, I spent some time Googling "Luke Skywalker anti-hero" to see if anyone shared your perspective, and all I could find was a litany of arguments using him as an example of the opposite of an anti-hero.

Alas, there's little point in THIS reply either, as for all I know you're "done" again, and have already declared yourself as "won the argument" (imagine my surprise!). With your collegial and friendly manner of discussion I honestly cannot imagine why you've had so many disagreements.

 

[twistedmic]

As for the Death Star, that's the stupidity of a moon-sized Station having a 2km-wide self-destruct button, not Luke being deemed super-awesome. It didn't require supernatural proficiency considering the other pilots attempted the shot when given the opportunity and all exhibited some expectation of success.

The thermal exhaust port on the Deathstar was two meters, not kilometers, wide. Meaning it was roughly six and a half feet across rather than one and a quarter mile.

 

[BaronVH]

Saw it again today. All the issues I had with it are gone. I love it. I pity those who don't. It is every bit as good as the original trilogy and maybe better. Just my two cents, but I am a kid again.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

Also, you have an extraordinary knack for disregarding 95% of my posts to hark on the one point you think you've won. Almost disingenuous, really.

At least lose the argument gracefully, man.

I thought you were "done"? Was that just a "last word" thing? Why would I spent a lot of time replying to you?

I meant regarding the section quoted arguing the particulars of space magic.

Tony Soprano is an anti-hero. Luke Skywalker is not. Amusingly, I spent some time Googling "Luke Skywalker anti-hero" to see if anyone shared your perspective, and all I could find was a litany of arguments using him as an example of the opposite of an anti-hero.

First of all, I never said Luke Skywalker was an anti-hero, so put that goalpost back where you found it. I brought up the definition of antihero to demonstrate that protagonists aren't required to have heroic traits, therefore my calling Luke a loser wasn't "ridiculous" based on your premise that he was "the central character."

Moreover, if going off the classical definition rather than the shift toward the Byronic that the term "antihero" has undergone, one could argue that Luke is an antihero. I'd describe Luke in terms of being whiny and impetuous before calling him particularly noble. Also, his "dark streak" is the crux of his character arc. Luke is more definied by his potential to "fall like his father" than he is by being pureness-personified.

This may shock you, but iconic characters and works get bowdlerized. The Luke of collective pop culture memory and Luke as portrayed in the movies are not a 1:1 match.

Alas, there's little point in THIS reply either, as for all I know you're "done" again, and have already declared yourself as "won the argument" (imagine my surprise!). With your collegial and friendly manner of discussion I honestly cannot imagine why you've had so many disagreements.

You only lost "most" of the argument and successfully buried those instances by snipping them out of your replies entirely. So there's that. Small victory.

I won by default. You replied to about 1-in-every-5 points that I made while insisting this discussion is so beneath you.

I'm being a dick in response to your winning personality, yes, but I've addressed you on a point-by-point basis which was a courtesy you felt you needed to emphasize was beneath you. What's that if not a win by forfeit.

As for the Death Star, that's the stupidity of a moon-sized Station having a 2km-wide self-destruct button, not Luke being deemed super-awesome. It didn't require supernatural proficiency considering the other pilots attempted the shot when given the opportunity and all exhibited some expectation of success.

The thermal exhaust port on the Deathstar was two meters, not kilometers, wide. Meaning it was roughly six and a half feet across rather than one and a quarter mile.

Still bigger than a womprat.

My sense of scale was thrown off trying to imagine how big the Death Star was. I don't disagree it's ridiculous horseshit, but it was ridiculous horseshit the movie telegraphed and set up for the entire movie.

 

[Austin Manning]

snip

snip

I probably shouldn't stick my neck into this argument, but Dazzle is actually correct on this one. If we must use TvTropes for this discussion, then I'd suggest you look at the "Classical Anti-Hero" article which describes basically what Dazzle laid out in regards to the character Shinji Ikari from Neon Genesis Evangelion and mentions how the definition shifted to a "grittier" style of protagonist from there.