Star Wars Force Awakens Spoiler Filled discussion thread (no spoiler tags, you've been warned)

[COMaestro]

It's interesting to me how polarizing this film is among fans. Rey = best/worst character, Ren = best/worst character, Finn = awesome/annoying, Ford = in peak form/phoning it in, etc. More so than usual, I feel this particular film really seems to go to either extreme for people compared to others where there's more of an average feeling towards characters and story with just a few outliers.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

Luke could, in theory, blind-block blaster fire with his saber. In practice, Luke was ducking blaster fire and crouching behind walls just like Han and Leia. Which is more telling regarding what the movie and characters think of Luke's ability? He came under a lot of fire in both ANH and ERB; he apparently decided he wasn't well-trained enough to do it.

You mean he came under fire when he successfully rescued Leia from inside the Death Star, which he later returned to blow up, something no other pilot in the fleet was able to accomplish?

Luke didn't rescue Leia and I have a feeling in an argument where you weren't trying to frame Luke as a Mary Sue you wouldn't diminish Leia's agency in such a fashion. Their escape was mutual, a constant game of hot potato regarding which one came up with an idea to save the other two idiots. In other words, Luke rescued Leia rescued Han rescued Luke... You're intentionally mischaracterizing events to support your point and, sadly, mischaracterization will be a running theme throughout your post.

As for the Death Star, that's the stupidity of a moon-sized Station having a 2km-wide self-destruct button, not Luke being deemed super-awesome. It didn't require supernatural proficiency considering the other pilots attempted the shot when given the opportunity and all exhibited some expectation of success.

Frankly, Luke is treated like a loser throughout ANH and ESB. He's whiny. He gets knocked on his ass constantly (e.g. roughed up at Mos Eisley, scarred by the Yeti thing, shot down on Hoth, chastised by Yoda, dismembered, etc.) He doesn't really get to play with his cool sword until the end of his second movie and doesn't become a space wizard until his third. Hell, as much of an author avatar for Lucas as Luke is, Lucas doesn't even portray the obligatory romance between the hero and rescued princess as reciprocal. Luke has a crush; Leia treats him like a brother from jump.

Despite all of this, I'm supposed to call it a wash and say him and Rey are portrayed as equally competent? They're not. It's not an issue of characterization, but of plotting. I like Rey. Daisy Ridley is a charming, magnetic actress who imbues the character with a lot of heart and warmth.

I'm sorry, Dazzle. I know you hated the film, or disliked it and have chosen to take up the mantle of "hated it" to battle against what you feel is unwarranted praise, but there's some RIDICULOUS reaching going on to slam Rey's characterization.

You know nothing, Jon Snow.

All this griping aside, I'm excited to pay and go see the movie a second time. Not everyone who's bringing up complaints are joyless haters trying to rain on the parade.

That's totally the reaction of a guy with a blood-grudge against the new Star Wars and strong female protagonists.

I'm ranting because I'm ticked off by the glib, dismissive arguments being used to defend the movie. Point blank. This is the first time I've been forced to side with the "I'm no miss soggy knees!" crowd because the other has been so trigger-happy. I loved Mad Max: Fury Road, but I'm being told I'm intimidated by strong female leads. Right...

If such people really want to get "intersectional social politics" regarding characterization, why does the woman have to be propped up on the back of the black character, huh? Finn (who was my favorite character, mind you) comes off like C-3PO compared to all the boundless heroics of Rey, Poe, and Han.

[A character with a mysterious background and unknown parentage emerges as a force sensitivity prodigy in fucking STAR WARS of all things, and a tiny portion of the audience is crying foul about it. It's very difficult to express in words how ridiculous this particular complaint is, issued one film into a three film trilogy. Eyes aren't meant to roll this much.

What backstory could she possibly have that isn't Anakin Skywalker "virgin birth" prequel horseshit? She was dropped off on Jakku at the age of five. What are we looking forward to? An amnesiac who was the most incredibly well-trained Jedi toddler in the universe's history?

Moreover, "I'm sure the next movie will explain" is a declaration of faith that I'm not required to grant. What if the sequel is just as patchy in its exposition? Then I'll be lectured for not indulging all of the supplemental novels and comics, I'm sure. A New Hope stands on its own. The fact it didn't have a guaranteed sequel worked in its favor. Leave "open-ended" storytelling to TV where the wait between episodes isn't two to three years.

 

[Fappy]

It's interesting to me how polarizing this film is among fans. Rey = best/worst character, Ren = best/worst character, Finn = awesome/annoying, Ford = in peak form/phoning it in, etc. More so than usual, I feel this particular film really seems to go to either extreme for people compared to others where there's more of an average feeling towards characters and story with just a few outliers.

I'd say it only really appears this way because the opinions you're most likely to read online tend to be polarizing by nature. Most people won't bother posting their opinion unless they feel strongly one way or the other. The vast, vast majority of people I know who saw the movie enjoyed it and have average feelings about the characters.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

...mischaracterization will be a running theme throughout your post.

Frankly, Luke is treated like a loser throughout ANH and ESB.

I'm speechless. If you cannot perceive the degree to which you're reaching at this point, we've long since flown past the point where we can have a productive exchange. This is boggling.

I'm ranting because I'm ticked off by the glib, dismissive arguments being used to defend the movie.

And here we go. By admission, you are polarized, and ranting. For every 'glib dismissive' argument you feel you've been forced to address (for some reason) you are now firing back with several of your own.

This is the first time I've been forced to side with the "I'm no miss soggy knees!" crowd because the other has been so trigger-happy. I loved Mad Max: Fury Road, but I'm being told I'm intimidated by strong female leads. Right...

The fuck? I said nothing of the sort. Get off your cross.

What are we looking forward to?

I have no idea, and neither do you. I usually withhold judgment on things I haven't seen yet, but you appear quite comfortable. You summarily hand wave the question of cliff hangers or keeping things unknown from one movie to another, suggesting the film should "stand on its own", presumably with all plot points nicely tied off with a bow by the time the credits roll. Maybe a nice medal ceremony. Sounds like Phantom Menace might be a film more to your enjoyment.

 

[Fappy]

Sounds like Phantom Menace might be a film more to your enjoyment.

Low blow, man. Low fucking blow.

I was with you until this point, but that's just cruel.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I'd say it only really appears this way because the opinions you're most likely to read online tend to be polarizing by nature. Most people won't bother posting their opinion unless they feel strongly one way or the other. The vast, vast majority of people I know who saw the movie enjoyed it and have average feelings about the characters.

http://variety.com/2015/film/news/star-wars-the-force-awakens-twitter-reactions-1201666196/

One of the most positive social media reactions to a film in recorded history.

To get its results, the social media research firm recorded 1,517,824 tweets about the film from the time it began screening on Thursday through the end of Sunday. It found that 70% of comments for the picture were positive, with the other 29% a neutral reaction that was generally focusing on the film?s box office performance rather than its critical merits.

"Usually some segment of the audience is disappointed," said Carlson. "But there wasn't much people didn't like about this one. People loved all the characters, loved all the major plot points, and are trying desperately not to put any spoilers in their tweets."

For a blockbuster of this size and popular appeal, negative reactions typically make up 5% of the social media chatter. Positive responses are lucky to come in at 50%, Carlson said.

I've spent quite a bit of time on the sub reddit too, and the reaction there is also overwhelmingly positive, in roughly equivalent proportions.

The ONLY place I've found "polarized/angry debate" is here at the Escapist, and imagine my complete lack of surprise given the state of this community over the last couple of years. With a few notable exceptions, it's the same rasher of suspects too.

Low blow, man. Low fucking blow.

I was with you until this point, but that's just cruel.

It's a stand alone movie that closes all its plot points! It leaves absolutely nothing to speculate about.

 

[Fappy]

-Snip-

I've been lurking the sub-reddit too, mostly for the theories and such. But you're right, there are very few people on there who are upset about the movie.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I've been lurking the sub-reddit too, mostly for the theories and such. But you're right, there are very few people on there who are upset about the movie.

There's a few, but even those few seem more annoyed at Reddit than the film. "ROAR CIRCLEJERK ROAR" goes the usual cry of the person who feels they hold a minority opinion in their sub reddit of choice.

Have you read any of the novelization "spoilers"? The stuff that wasn't in the film?

Like Kylo Ren recognizing Rey?

 

[Fappy]

I've been lurking the sub-reddit too, mostly for the theories and such. But you're right, there are very few people on there who are upset about the movie.

There's a few, but even those few seem more annoyed at Reddit than the film. "ROAR CIRCLEJERK ROAR" goes the usual cry of the person who feels they hold a minority opinion in their sub reddit of choice.

Have you read any of the novelization "spoilers"? The stuff that wasn't in the film?

Like Kylo Ren recognizing Rey?

Yeah, I am going to hold those little differences as clues to the truth rather than canon. Apparently the book was based off an earlier version of the script, so who knows what may have been changed. The main thing I hope that isn't canon from the book is Ren knowing Vader was redeemed. I like the idea that he either doesn't know or has been convinced Vader's redemption is a lie (probably Luke's).

 

[DefunctTheory]

I've been lurking the sub-reddit too, mostly for the theories and such. But you're right, there are very few people on there who are upset about the movie.

There's a few, but even those few seem more annoyed at Reddit than the film. "ROAR CIRCLEJERK ROAR" goes the usual cry of the person who feels they hold a minority opinion in their sub reddit of choice.

Have you read any of the novelization "spoilers"? The stuff that wasn't in the film?

Like Kylo Ren recognizing Rey?

Yeah, I am going to hold those little differences as clues to the truth rather than canon. Apparently the book was based off an earlier version of the script, so who knows what may have been changed. The main thing I hope that isn't canon from the book is Ren knowing Vader was redeemed. I like the idea that he either doesn't know or has been convinced Vader's redemption is a lie (probably Luke's).

Does Kylo Ren's motivation even work if he knows about Vader's redemption? How does that make sense in the book?

I mean, I guess maybe that's why he's so keen on killing his Dad and resisting the light side? Maybe he figures that if a son can redeem his father, it works the other way round, so the only way he's safe is if Han is dead. I guess that does make sense, but its really weird...

 

[Fappy]

Sounds like Phantom Menace might be a film more to your enjoyment.

Low blow, man. Low fucking blow.

I was with you until this point, but that's just cruel.

Yes, he's being a dismissive tosser. Surprise surprise.

The fact that I liked this movie isn't enough.
The fact that I like the character I'm criticizing isn't enough.
The fact I just watched ANH and ESB within the past two days, therefore am providing specific examples to support the points he's dismissing isn't enough.

Nothing short of "It was the most amazeballs things I've ever had the privilege of witnessing!" will win me points. I said that I enjoyed the fucking movie enough to pay for another ticket to see it a second time. I just think Rey's learning curve was a little too flat. I'm a monster.

You're supposed to buy three tickets to the movie, dude. Every true Star Wars fan knows that!

 

[Fappy]

I've been lurking the sub-reddit too, mostly for the theories and such. But you're right, there are very few people on there who are upset about the movie.

There's a few, but even those few seem more annoyed at Reddit than the film. "ROAR CIRCLEJERK ROAR" goes the usual cry of the person who feels they hold a minority opinion in their sub reddit of choice.

Have you read any of the novelization "spoilers"? The stuff that wasn't in the film?

Like Kylo Ren recognizing Rey?

Yeah, I am going to hold those little differences as clues to the truth rather than canon. Apparently the book was based off an earlier version of the script, so who knows what may have been changed. The main thing I hope that isn't canon from the book is Ren knowing Vader was redeemed. I like the idea that he either doesn't know or has been convinced Vader's redemption is a lie (probably Luke's).

Does Kylo Ren's motivation even work if he knows about Vader's redemption? How does that make sense in the book?

I mean, I guess maybe that's why he's so keen on killing his Dad and resisting the light side? Maybe he figures that if a son can redeem his father, it works the other way round, so the only way he's safe is if Han is dead. I guess that does make sense, but its really weird...

Yeah, that's why I think that's not the case in the finalized version of the script. The irony of him becoming the antithesis of Vader while trying to emulate him is far more compelling than the alternative, imo.

 

[Fappy]

I've been lurking the sub-reddit too, mostly for the theories and such. But you're right, there are very few people on there who are upset about the movie.

There's a few, but even those few seem more annoyed at Reddit than the film. "ROAR CIRCLEJERK ROAR" goes the usual cry of the person who feels they hold a minority opinion in their sub reddit of choice.

Have you read any of the novelization "spoilers"? The stuff that wasn't in the film?

Like Kylo Ren recognizing Rey?

Yeah, I am going to hold those little differences as clues to the truth rather than canon. Apparently the book was based off an earlier version of the script, so who knows what may have been changed. The main thing I hope that isn't canon from the book is Ren knowing Vader was redeemed. I like the idea that he either doesn't know or has been convinced Vader's redemption is a lie (probably Luke's).

Wow, that would really ruin things for me. Why would he still hold Vader in such high regard if that were the case? Surely he'd see Vader as weak if he knew about his redemption. I guess it could serve as another kind of motivation for him, that he sees the light side as so corrupting it even got to his hero but they seem to be going for a "I wanna be just like Vader when I grow up" kinda thing which is an angle I like. Why would he look to Vader for staying on the path of Darkness if he knew Vader fell from it though?

Anyway, any other big ones I should know? I tend to hate novelisations unless you'd recommend it as anything more than a companion piece I'd rather just read the spoilers. Even if you had a link that'd be cool.

There are a few lists going around on the clickbait sites if you just google "Differences in Force Awakens novel". There are a few threads on the Star Wars sub-reddit too.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Yes, he's being a dismissive tosser. Surprise surprise.

Nothing short of "It was the most amazeballs things I've ever had the privilege of witnessing!" will win me points.

Therefore, I'm a monster who needs to be taught love and happiness.

Yes, clearly you are the VICTIM of dismissive arguments, and are supplying none of your own. You poor soul.

I'll say it again. You are letting your irritation at what you perceive as unwarranted or excessive praise lead you into hyperbolic slams and ridiculous statements.

And for the record, I watched all three films recently too, chum. My memory of them is as fresh as yours. Oddly, I do not recall Luke being positioned as "a loser" by either the script or the direction, so it's possible you were watching some secret unedited director's cut.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

...mischaracterization will be a running theme throughout your post.

Frankly, Luke is treated like a loser throughout ANH and ESB.

I'm speechless. If you cannot perceive the degree to which you're reaching at this point, we've long since flown past the point where we can have a productive exchange. This is boggling.

I've cited specific scenes throughout my posts that support my assertion over Luke's portrayal. You haven't made a single specific counter-point. What's "I'm speechless" if not dismissive and an excuse not to engage? You claim to "know" I hated the movie when I do not. What is that if not mischaracterization?

I'm ranting because I'm ticked off by the glib, dismissive arguments being used to defend the movie.

And here we go. By admission, you are polarized, and ranting. For every 'glib dismissive' argument you feel you've been forced to address (for some reason) you are now firing back with several of your own.

I've afforded you much more thoroughness and much more courtesy than you've afforded me. I'm not the one who's going to end his post with a, irony-of-all-ironies, glib and dismissive: "The Phantom Menace may be more your pace! Hardy-har-har!

This is the first time I've been forced to side with the "I'm no miss soggy knees!" crowd because the other has been so trigger-happy. I loved Mad Max: Fury Road, but I'm being told I'm intimidated by strong female leads. Right...

The fuck? I said nothing of the sort. Get off your cross.

You first.

What are we looking forward to?

I have no idea, and neither do you. I usually withhold judgment on things I haven't seen yet, but you appear quite comfortable. You summarily hand wave the question of cliff hangers or keeping things unknown from one movie to another, suggesting the film should "stand on its own", presumably with all plot points nicely tied off with a bow by the time the credits roll. Maybe a nice medal ceremony. Sounds like Phantom Menace might be a film more to your enjoyment.

A cliff hanger is "What happens next?" Even fans have admitted they're only speculating regarding the politics driving the plot. Yes, there is such a thing as under-explained and when a bunch of shit seems even more "magic" than the standard space-magic and characters contradict their own characterization (Finn, a brainwashed stormtrooper, acts like a regular guy. Why?), that's not me needing everything spoon-fed.

You can give me a blank sheet of paper and I can fill in the blanks, sure. But it's bad storytelling if the audience has to do half the explaining for themselves. Basic plot mechanics don't benefit from being ambiguous. This is an adventure serial, not fucking Goddard.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Wow, that would really ruin things for me. Why would he still hold Vader in such high regard if that were the case? Surely he'd see Vader as weak if he knew about his redemption. I guess it could serve as another kind of motivation for him, that he sees the light side as so corrupting it even got to his hero but they seem to be going for a "I wanna be just like Vader when I grow up" kinda thing which is an angle I like. Why would he look to Vader for staying on the path of Darkness if he knew Vader fell from it though?

"I will finish what you started".

It would suggest to me that he wants to show that he can succeed where Vader failed. And I don't think Ben Solo necessarily would view Vader's "fall to the light" as evidence of a wretched character flaw, given he feels the same pull himself. He might view Vader as a tragic hero. Adam Driver has said in interviews that Kylo Ren and the First Order view themselves as the good guys, as performing necessary evils for the good of the galaxy. I don't think he's necessarily of the MWAHAHA WE MUST BE ONLY OF THE PUREST EVIL stripe.

Anyway, any other big ones I should know? I tend to hate novelisations unless you'd recommend it as anything more than a companion piece I'd rather just read the spoilers. Even if you had a link that'd be cool.

Just contextual stuff about the state of the galaxy, how small the resistance is, stuff like that. Kylo knowing who Rey is was the big one.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I've cited specific scenes throughout my posts that support my assertion over Luke's portrayal. You haven't made a single specific counter-point. What's "I'm speechless" if not dismissive and an excuse not to engage? You claim to "know" I hated the movie when I do not. What is that if not mischaracterization?

I'm not going to "counter point" an absolutely ludicrous assertion, Dazzle. "LUKE IS A LOSER IN THE FIRST TWO FILMS". He's the central protagonist. It's a ridiculous statement, and it merits a dismissive response. A less ridiculous way to frame your argument would have been "Luke is shown to have a quick temper and a lack of patience, characteristics he shared with his father". But you chose "Loser" because you felt it made a stronger argument, then act aggrieved when said argument is not shown respect. At some point you're going to need to recognize that how you express yourself determines how people respond to you.

You first.

I'm neither on a cross, nor did I suggest you were accusing me of "misogyny". What a strange thing to haul into the discussion. Can you account for that? Did I claim you were "intimidated by a strong female lead"?

Yes, there is such a thing an under-explained and when a bunch of shit seems even more "magic" than the standard space-magic...

And this is a simple point of disagreement. You seem to believe there is a "standard" space magic. Like we can assume Rey is a level 7 Force User and she doesn't get Mind Influence before level 13, or something. Rather than the completely abstract mysticism that was constantly put to new uses which each film in the Original Trilogy. That you are attempting to apply limitations and structure to said abstract mysticism when it has never had any is what I find puzzling and impossible to reply meaningfully to. I know you feel I'm snarking excessively at you, and perhaps I am, but you're literally in a forum angrily debating the finer points of space magic. Do you not find it slightly bemusing?

 

[Dazzle Novak]

I've cited specific scenes throughout my posts that support my assertion over Luke's portrayal. You haven't made a single specific counter-point. What's "I'm speechless" if not dismissive and an excuse not to engage? You claim to "know" I hated the movie when I do not. What is that if not mischaracterization?

I'm not going to "counter point" an absolutely ludicrous assertion, Dazzle. "LUKE IS A LOSER IN THE FIRST TWO FILMS". He's the central protagonist. It's a ridiculous statement, and it merits a dismissive response. A less ridiculous way to frame your argument would have been "Luke is shown to have a quick temper and a lack of patience, characteristics he shared with his father". But you chose "Loser" because you felt it made a stronger argument, then act aggrieved when said argument is not shown respect. At some point you're going to need to recognize that how you express yourself determines how people respond to you.

You do know the original definition of "anti-hero" was a protagonist who lacked positive heroic traits? Shinji is the protagonist of NGE. He also masturbates onto another character's comatose body. Labeling Shinji anything less than "Bad Ass" must merit a dismissive response in your eyes, right? Shinji gets to pilot the coolest giant robot, so that must cancel out how he's a whiny, indecisive basket-case, no?

Protagonist =/= hero. There are villain protagonists, edgy antiheroes, loser protagonists (think Seth Rogen movies) across a wide spectrum.

I said "loser" because he gets flat-out bullied and intimidated as Mos Eisley. He responds to a threatening, "I don't like you, kid!" with a timid, "I'm sorry" before getting shoved to the ground. I said "loser" because he gets friend-zoned by the princess only to have his one passionate kiss (which was already a ploy to make Han jealous) invalidated by the reveal she's his sister. I said "loser" because every kid wanted to be Han Solo over Luke Skywalker before Return of the Jedi.

You're wrong. Factually incorrect. Have you watched the old trilogy recently? I have.

You first.

I'm neither on a cross, nor did I suggest you were accusing me of "misogyny". What a strange thing to haul into the discussion. Can you account for that? Did I claim you were "intimidated by a strong female lead"?

If you bothered to actually read for comprehension, you'd see I was explicitly alluding to other arguments on the topic I've had with other people. Please, stop this tit-for-tat.

Yes, there is such a thing an under-explained and when a bunch of shit seems even more "magic" than the standard space-magic...

And this is a simple point of disagreement. You seem to believe there is a "standard" space magic. Like we can assume Rey is a level 7 Force User and she doesn't get Mind Influence before level 13, or something. Rather than the completely abstract mysticism that was constantly put to new uses which each film in the Original Trilogy. That you are attempting to apply limitations and structure to said abstract mysticism when it has never had any is what I find puzzling and impossible to reply meaningfully to. I know you feel I'm snarking excessively at you, and perhaps I am, but you're literally in a forum angrily debating the finer points of space magic. Do you not find it slightly bemusing?

There is "standard space-magic": The "Force" as portrayed in the OT which requires training to be wielded effectively.

I'm done. If you don't see my point isn't how strong the protagonist is or isn't, but rather whether or not I felt they're challenged by the obstacles set before them, we're spinning our wheels. Luke had to "struggle" (albeit, movie-time struggle) before he could do basic shit. Rey reverse mind rapes the antagonist because the plot needed her to at that moment and she's "special".

Even magic has to have limits. Else, there's no tension. Whenever the good guy's in a bind, just pull another ability out of their ass. That's dramatic, right?