Star Wars Force Awakens Spoiler Filled discussion thread (no spoiler tags, you've been warned)

[Fappy]

Lol, everyone I know and myself loved this movie, the general reviews are about how amazing it is. I saw this thread and I just knew that if anyone would hate it it would be the Escapist where liking anything is a sign if weakness.

Wow, wish I could say I am surprised by the opinions in this thread but I'm not. Impossible the please this crowd, it seems.

I had plenty of problems with the movie, but they are easily overshadowed by how fun it was. It was great, and now that Disney has proven themselves I hope Episode VIII can take us into uncharted territory. Hopefully they make another Empire without trying to make another Empire.

Oh no! Not everyone agrees that this movie is great, there must be something wrong with them -_-

That's the only way I can look at these type of comments. Seriously, every time something becomes really popular it brings in this same elitist attitude. You don't know better than everyone else so stop pretending like you do.

It's more of a meta comment on the community's general attitude towards anything considered popular. Not really about Star Wars specifically.

The Escapist is kind of known for that.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

One of the main complaints I have is actually the final shot of the movie. That scene is totally fine until the weird helicopter shot. No idea what they were going for there.

I agree, it was bizarre.

Seriously, every time something becomes really popular it brings in this same elitist attitude. You don't know better than everyone else so stop pretending like you do.

It has nothing to do with its "popularity". Everyone is entitled to an opinion. That does not mean everyone's opinion makes for engaging or intelligent reading.

As for "elitism", it is probably better defined as sniffing at things for being "populist" than criticizing inane film analysis.

 

[Nazulu]

It's more of a meta comment on the community's general attitude towards anything considered popular. Not really about Star Wars specifically.

The Escapist is kind of known for that.

Look, if I saw a whole lot of people putting down others who liked it, that would make them the (insert insult), but just like usual, I see more of it going the other way around.

So what if people don't like it? Should they? I would normally just ignore comments like those I just quoted, but they're very common right now.

 

[Nazulu]

It has nothing to do with its "popularity". Everyone is entitled to an opinion. That does not mean everyone's opinion makes for engaging or intelligent reading.

Sorry, what are you saying here?

 

[Fappy]

It's more of a meta comment on the community's general attitude towards anything considered popular. Not really about Star Wars specifically.

The Escapist is kind of known for that.

Look, if I saw a whole lot of people putting down others who liked it, that would make them the (insert insult), but just like usual, I see more of it going the other way around.

So what if people don't like it? Should they? I would normally just ignore comments like those I just quoted, but they're very common right now.

Speaking only for myself, I am just fed up with the forum's negative attitude towards anything someone else enjoys. If you only read these boards you'd think someone isn't allowed to like anything at all unless it is perfect in every respect. People around here let minor nitpicks ruin entire experiences for them all the time. It's rubbed off on me over the years and it kind of sucks. I'd prefer to forgive errors and enjoy something rather than let those errors tarnish the experience for me.

Criticism is fine... welcome even, but a lot of posters just enjoy tearing things down too much. Puts me off :/

 

[Dazzle Novak]

@ Fappy and BloatedGuppy

There's little more obnoxious than assuming someone is being hipsterish or contrarian just for affect. It's denying someone the legitimacy of their opinion just to protect your own ego: "There's no way I could enjoy a mediocre product! The haters must just be hating!"

The movie was fun and I enjoyed myself in the theatre. The script was packed with undercooked characterization, bullshit handwaves, half-explanations, EU-esque nonsense, and flaccid mysteries. These two opinions aren't mutually exclusive. Most things I enjoy are mediocre. Most things period are mediocre. A New Hope is mediocre.

Unconditional love is for your children, not the media you consume.

Please step off the cross and stop martyring yourself against straw men with the "I just want the Escapist to learn how to love again" bollocks.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Sorry, what are you saying here?

While what I was saying is evident, and while I believe you are feigning a lack of understanding as a method of signaling disdain for the statement, I shall re-phrase for you.

I enjoy reading intelligent, well spoken or well expressed criticism of and/or praise for media. I don't particularly enjoy reading unintelligent or poorly expressed criticism and/or praise. Particularly the former, as useless praise at least has the benefit of being cheerful. These forums are home to a large contingent of aspiring Jeff Albertsons, likely because of Yahtzee's influence, and a great many of them aren't very good at it. Much the same as "user reviews" on Metacritic or Steam tend to amount to little more than useless jungle noises, the quality of discourse in here has taken a beating over the last couple of years. While I've come to expect very little in the way of quality discussion on subjects like gender politics or outrage culture due to the polarized nature of those debates and the age of some of the participants, I anticipated that something as simple as "What did you think of the new Star Wars" would at least result in civil, amicable and reasonable exchanges. I was clearly mistaken in this anticipation. There's folks acting like angry babies, and it's both tiring and embarrassing.

Unconditional love is for your children, not the media you consume.

Did I call for unconditional love? Please direct me to where I asked for that. Also, please direct me to posts where I claimed the film was flawless, or said it was beyond criticism. Pleas direct me to ANYTHING I've said that would suggest your reply was warranted.

I've been pretty clear what I'm disgusted by. It's not "criticism". I'm an advocate for media criticism and I've been pretty outspoken on these forums for YEARS about promoting it and defending it.

 

[Nazulu]

It's more of a meta comment on the community's general attitude towards anything considered popular. Not really about Star Wars specifically.

The Escapist is kind of known for that.

Look, if I saw a whole lot of people putting down others who liked it, that would make them the (insert insult), but just like usual, I see more of it going the other way around.

So what if people don't like it? Should they? I would normally just ignore comments like those I just quoted, but they're very common right now.

Speaking only for myself, I am just fed up with the forum's negative attitude towards anything someone else enjoys. If you only read these boards you'd think someone isn't allowed to like anything at all unless it is perfect in very respect. People around here let minor nitpicks ruin entire experiences for them all the time. It's rubbed off on me over the years and it kind of sucks. I'd prefer to forgive errors and enjoy something rather than let those errors tarnish the experience for me.

Criticism is fine... welcome even, but a lot of posters just enjoy tearing things down too much. Puts me off :/

Negative attitude being people who are disappointed in the movie? I haven't seen the attitude where I'm not allowed to like something (though I've been targeted by some in the past), but you are not exactly helping by doing it the other way around. Wouldn't that just make them more aggressive?

Nitpicks can be a major flaws to others. Everyone see's things very differently. I know you know this though, but it's true. What you consider fun might be really boring or stupid to someone else. And also people can find joy in tearing something a new asshole, like revenge I guess, for letting them down. Even when they like it!

It used to get to me when I was younger, but I knew there were many who enjoyed what I liked though, I just didn't find many back in the day. I didn't get the opportunity to discuss with like minded people, but you, you've got plenty you can talk to! You should be enjoying your time with them, not letting others get you down.

 

[Fappy]

@ Fappy and BloatedGuppy

There's little more obnoxious than assuming someone is being hipsterish or contrarian just for affect. It's denying someone the legitimacy of their opinion just to protect your own ego: "There's no way I could enjoy a mediocre product! The haters must just be hating!"

The movie was fun and I enjoyed myself in the theatre. The script was packed with undercooked characterization, bullshit handwaves, half-explanations, EU-esque nonsense, and flaccid mysteries. These two opinions aren't mutually exclusive. Unconditional love is for your children, not the media you consume.

Please step off the cross and stop martyring yourself against straw men with the "I just want people to learn how to love again" bollocks.

I would relent to your point if mine was meant to encompass everyone's criticisms. Plenty of them are valid and it's absolutely fine to not like the film. The comments that set me off are ones that Guppy referred to as "extraordinary". I can't pretend to know people's motivations or why they drew the conclusions that they did, but the point I am arguing is nothing new. Anyone whose been on the site for a few years could tell you that.

 

[Fappy]

It's more of a meta comment on the community's general attitude towards anything considered popular. Not really about Star Wars specifically.

The Escapist is kind of known for that.

Look, if I saw a whole lot of people putting down others who liked it, that would make them the (insert insult), but just like usual, I see more of it going the other way around.

So what if people don't like it? Should they? I would normally just ignore comments like those I just quoted, but they're very common right now.

Speaking only for myself, I am just fed up with the forum's negative attitude towards anything someone else enjoys. If you only read these boards you'd think someone isn't allowed to like anything at all unless it is perfect in very respect. People around here let minor nitpicks ruin entire experiences for them all the time. It's rubbed off on me over the years and it kind of sucks. I'd prefer to forgive errors and enjoy something rather than let those errors tarnish the experience for me.

Criticism is fine... welcome even, but a lot of posters just enjoy tearing things down too much. Puts me off :/

Negative attitude being people who are disappointed in the movie? I haven't seen the attitude where I'm not allowed to like something (though I've been targeted by some in the past), but you are not exactly helping by doing it the other way around. Wouldn't that just make them more aggressive?

Nitpicks can be a major flaws to others. Everyone see's things very differently. I know you know this though, but it's true. What you consider fun might be really boring or stupid to someone else. And also people can find joy in tearing something a new asshole, like revenge I guess, for letting them down. Even when they like it!

It used to get to me when I was younger, but I knew there were many who enjoyed what I liked though, I just didn't find many back in the day. I didn't get the opportunity to discuss with like minded people, but you, you've got plenty you can talk to! You should be enjoying your time with them, not letting others get you down.

I used to really like ripping things a new ass hole too, but... I don't know. Escapism like this is a lot more "escapy" for me these days. I prefer to focus on the good rather than the bad, I guess.

 

[Nazulu]

Sorry, what are you saying here?

While what I was saying is evident, and while I believe you are feigning a lack of understanding as a method of signaling disdain for the statement, I shall re-phrase for you.

I enjoy reading intelligent, well spoken or well expressed criticism of and/or praise for media. I don't particularly enjoy reading unintelligent or poorly expressed criticism and/or praise. Particularly the former, as useless praise at least has the benefit of being cheerful. These forums are home to a large contingent of aspiring Jeff Albertsons, likely because of Yahtzee's influence, and a great many of them aren't very good at it. Much the same as "user reviews" on Metacritic or Steam tend to amount to little more than useless jungle noises, the quality of discourse in here has taken a beating over the last couple of years. While I've come to expect very little in the way of quality discussion on subjects like gender politics or outrage culture due to the polarized nature of those debates and the age of some of the participants, I anticipated that something as simple as "What did you think of the new Star Wars" would at least result in civil, amicable and reasonable exchanges. I was clearly mistaken in this anticipation. There's folks acting like angry babies, and it's both tiring and embarrassing.

I know you meant all this. Though I'm going to have to tell you that writing/speaking well is a skill not everyone can obtain, especially critising. And there's always idiots in every group that ruin everything.

What I don't get is where you are getting this unintelligent or poorly expressed criticism in this thread. I do know exactly where to go for the most useless comments if those are the places you are talking about.

 

[wizzy555]

1. Rey isn't bad, and the actress does a pretty good job, but I never felt really impressed by the character. I don't know if there was a problem with the character, or if Finn was just so fantastic he completely steamrolled her in the character department.

I agree but I think the actress may have cracked how jedi are actually suppose to fight without being boring or too "angry" looking. She had a sort of purposeful serenity. I don't think I've seen this before and it always bothered me about the jedi (on a consistency point).

 

[BloatedGuppy]

What I don't get is where you are getting this unintelligent or poorly expressed criticism in this thread. I do know exactly where to go for the most useless comments if those are the places you are talking about.

That's not exactly something I can point out without inviting a lot of ill will and forum warnings, so you're going to have to use your judgment and make educated guesses.

 

[Nazulu]

What I don't get is where you are getting this unintelligent or poorly expressed criticism in this thread. I do know exactly where to go for the most useless comments if those are the places you are talking about.

That's not exactly something I can point out without inviting a lot of ill will and forum warnings, so you're going to have to use your judgment and make educated guesses.

Yeah, I just realised that wasn't something I should've asked here, sorry. Though I believe you are being harsh.

 

[Nazulu]

I used to really like ripping things a new ass hole too, but... I don't know. Escapism like this is a lot more "escapy" for me these days. I prefer to focus on the good rather than the bad, I guess.

I could be really biased. I watch a lot of Youtube critics these days, just for fun, so maybe criticism doesn't bother me anymore. Maybe there is a thick layer of negativity I can't see as well. I don't know.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

It felt more like a soft reboot/remake of Episode 4 than an actual sequel, but I enjoyed it all the same. The action set-pieces hit the mark, the characters were fun, the whiny teenage villain felt very much like how anakin should have been, the practical effects were great, and the light-sabers felt like deadly weapons rather than pathetic glowsticks. It also had a sense of humor, something the prequels sorely lacked.
However, I feel like they really played it safe. They could have told a new story whilst keeping a lot of what worked well in Episode 7 -

I would have kept the open with the First Order razing a village, but instead of it being back to stormtroopers again, it would be a small cult-like group of force-using Dark Side fanatics. Kylo Ren would lead the group, but may or may not be the dragon to the big bad. This would set the stakes quite high (evil force cult/multiple evil force users working in coordination) without having to resort to a new empire/death star. Rey would be among these force users, having been taken by the dark force cult as a child (keep the child abandonment stuff) - but she can't bring herself to kill one of the villagers (introduce Finn). They escape with the map to Luke.

This accomplishes a few things - Rey doesn't have to learn to use the force in 5 minutes, she's already force-powered. Secondly, she already knows Ren is Han's son, so she can seek Han out on purpose rather than bumping into him by accident, thus removing one annoying contrivance from the film. Thirdly, she is actively seeking the Luke map at the start rather than stumbling on it by accident, thus removing another plot contrivance. Fourthly, Rey is no longer some impeccably styled posh English lady whilst also somehow a desert dwelling scavenger. Finally, you don't need a new 'Evil Empire'.

From there the plot would diverge quite a lot from how episode 4 actually went. The plot would basically revolve around the good guys (Rey, Finn, Po and later Han), racing against the bad guys to find Luke. Rey would get more of an arc as she gets over her brainwashing and becomes a genuinely heroic character, Finn would stay about the same, and Po would get more screentime.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

This accomplishes a few things - Rey doesn't have to learn to use the force in 5 minutes, she's already force-powered.

The Red Letter Media guys were discussing this, the speed with which Rey becomes accustomed to expressing her powers. In their mind, this is consistent with OT use of "The Force", and how with Luke it was primarily about heading off the potential Vader in him than actually "sending him to Jedi School". It wasn't until the prequels that we got this stupid notion of them needing to grab them as kids and have them stand around waving lightsabers in front of training droids. Ben barely has Luke "training" for a couple of hours, but he still uses the force repeatedly. It's an innate ability he learns to express, and tends to come to him in times of great stress/need.

...and Po would get more screentime.

Poe. Po is a Teletubby.

 

[Fappy]

This accomplishes a few things - Rey doesn't have to learn to use the force in 5 minutes, she's already force-powered.

The Red Letter Media guys were discussing this, the speed with which Rey becomes accustomed to expressing her powers. In their mind, this is consistent with OT use of "The Force", and how with Luke it was primarily about heading off the potential Vader in him than actually "sending him to Jedi School". It wasn't until the prequels that we got this stupid notion of them needing to grab them as kids and have them stand around waving lightsabers in front of training droids. Ben barely has Luke "training" for a couple of hours, but he still uses the force repeatedly. It's an innate ability he learns to express, and tends to come to him in times of great stress/need.

...and Po would get more screentime.

Poe. Po is a Teletubby.

I watched their review last night and agreed with them. I think a lot of people are watching this movie within the context of the prequels and EU when it's fairly obvious Disney is trying to break away from those things. I didn't really think about how much I hated how the prequels changed jedi lore until I heard this point.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

This accomplishes a few things - Rey doesn't have to learn to use the force in 5 minutes, she's already force-powered.

The Red Letter Media guys were discussing this, the speed with which Rey becomes accustomed to expressing her powers. In their mind, this is consistent with OT use of "The Force", and how with Luke it was primarily about heading off the potential Vader in him than actually "sending him to Jedi School". It wasn't until the prequels that we got this stupid notion of them needing to grab them as kids and have them stand around waving lightsabers in front of training droids. Ben barely has Luke "training" for a couple of hours, but he still uses the force repeatedly. It's an innate ability he learns to express, and tends to come to him in times of great stress/need.

Poe still sounds like a teletubby but whatever. As for Rey compared to Luke - no, Luke spends time with Yoda before he can even lift a rock, whereas Rey learns to use the mind trick in 3 attempts, and then squares off against a force user who can literally freeze blaster fire in the air and wins. The prequels having kids wave lightsabers around was stupid, but the way 7 handles learning to use the force was also stupid.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I watched their review last night and agreed with them. I think a lot of people are watching this movie within the context of the prequels and EU when it's fairly obvious Disney is trying to break away from those things. I didn't really think about how much I hated how the prequels changed jedi lore until I heard this point.

It was a good review. Plenty of snark, but warm and loving snark, as opposed to the bitter snark aimed at the prequels.

The EU complicates issues. I don't know how to address the disappointment of someone who was invested in/loved the EU, as I was never exposed to it. My primary concern was how the films related to and worked with the other films. Star Wars is, to me, a series of films. I'm sympathetic to folks who were totally in love with EU concepts that no longer exist, canonically.