Star Wars Force Awakens Spoiler Filled discussion thread (no spoiler tags, you've been warned)

[DefunctTheory]

Also 2 plot holes I've noticed-Finn saying it was his first real fight... Might be true, but weird as he seems to be versed in the alien hentai monsters which implies he met them before.

As was discussed previously in this thread, Stormtroopers in the new Star Wars are curiously well informed. Finn tells us how he knows about them - There was a huge massacre involving those tentacle monsters, and he's heard (And probably saw) the stories, presumably as some sort of training exercise, combat training example, or it was simply news because the First Order was involved somehow.

the second how did Ray know about the jedi mind trick?

No argument here. It's really the only real bizarre Force thing Rey does, but it is a dozy.

 

[Kajin]

I thought it was pretty sweet UNTIL the last 30 minutes, then the thing fell apart. First of all, Ray's mary sue-ness, I fucking knew it will happen, let fanboys write the script and you'll have a person who's holding a lightsaber for the first time beat the bad guy
-snip-
And finally the villain, my nickname for him is Darth Zuko. Besides losing to a newbie force user, pretty much making him a non-threat from here forward what cemented is shittiness is the scene he's being told they didn't find the droid, YOU'D EXPECT him strangling the guy to death, classic vader style, instead he lashes with his sword like a 12 year old that lost in an video game. Pretty much the worst villain in the entire series.

The reason he lost was because Chewie had blasted him through the gut with his bowcaster earlier while he was busy dealing with the emotions of having just killed his dad and Finn had managed to nick him once or twice before Rey even got to him. Guy was visibly struggling throughout the whole fight just to keep it together. If it wasn't for all that he'd have won hands down. There's also the fact that Rey exhibited some manner of talent with melee weapons before, so some of that fighting experience would have carried over even if it was with a different weapon.

I'd say the rest is pretty spot on about him being Darth Zuko. Guy doesn't know how to deal with his emotions and it feels like he's lashing out at the world. Whether or not that's a good thing or a bad thing I've yet to see, but I think it has some potential going forward depending on how his character development is handled from here on out.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

No argument here. It's really the only real bizarre Force thing Rey does, but it is a dozy.

Seemed pretty evident to me that being probed by Kylo Ren was "opening her up".

EDIT: Jesus that sounds dirty on second look.

 

[DefunctTheory]

No argument here. It's really the only real bizarre Force thing Rey does, but it is a dozy.

Seemed pretty evident to me that being probed by Kylo Ren was "opening her up".

Oh, yah, that does it. My main problem is - Why does she even think to do it in the first place? Telekinesis and meditating during battle are things someone might legitimately think a Force Monk might do, and thus she'd try to do it, but scrambling someones brain and making them do crap seems like it comes out of the far left field. I'm not going to sit here and say its beyond reason, but it does seem bizarre to me. Probably the only thing in the entire movie that made me cock my head, Force or otherwise (Well, that and the lack of Y-Wings and the X-Wing redesign, but both of those make sense. Just wasn't my cup of tea).

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Oh, yah, that does it. My main problem is - Why does she even think to do it in the first place? Telekinesis and meditating during battle are things someone might legitimately think a Force Monk might do, and thus she'd try to do it, but scrambling someones brain and making them do crap seems like it comes out of the far left field. I'm not going to sit here and say its beyond reason, but it does seem bizarre to me. Probably the only thing in the entire movie that made me cock my head, Force or otherwise (Well, that and the lack of Y-Wings and the X-Wing redesign, but both of those make sense. Just wasn't my cup of tea).

Same reason Luke would think to turn off his bloody targeting computer. She felt the Force, and felt an ability to do something. She'd just successfully read Kylo Ren's mind and freaked him out in the bargain. Kylo Ren says something along the lines of "She's testing her powers, with every minute that goes by she becomes more dangerous".

This idea of the Force blooming to life inside a force sensitive is, quite frankly, a lot more appealing than a bunch of tow-headed kids going to Jedi School five days a week. It's a spiritual/mystical force that binds life together. This is not hard science fiction we're dealing with here.

 

[DefunctTheory]

This is not hard science fiction we're dealing with here.

Strictly speaking, this is barely science fiction we're dealing with. Star Wars has always been a fantasy story in a science fiction setting. It's about as soft of science fiction as you can get without your girlfriend getting suspicious about your actual orientation.

 

[Scow2]

I didn't have a problem with Rey defeating Ren - By that time, Ren was pretty worn down himself. Also - Rey is a backwater junkyard scrapper. She knows how to fight - Not with a lightsaber, but with melee weapons in general (Like Finn), with assistance from the Force. Also - Ren is totally hitting on her because he's a hormonal emotional teenage boy.

I really liked that the Stormtroopers and Tie Pilots were actually competent this time around. Not quite as competent as they should be (Finn, being one, was able to handle too many of them too easily, IMO. Then again, it may have been a situation he could hard-counter them, and he knows their (And his own) training). I liked that NONE of the TIE fighters destroyed themselves on the wreckage during the Millenium Falcon chase, though it tried telegraphing that result several times. Instead, the TIE fighter pilots are "Half-mad crazy obstacle course run after a broken-down freighter? We've totally got this, man." I figure the only reason they didn't win there was A.) Plot Armor but possibly B.) They didn't want to take any shots that would destroy instead of merely disable the Falcon. Unlike the Death Star Plans, they needed that Map Section intact.

I also liked the fight between Finn and the Stormtrooper. Apparently, Laser Sword beats Rifle in CQC, but Finn was no more or less trained than any other Stormtrooper. That fight made it clear that Finn was a trained CQC combatant using a weapon he was unfamiliar with, so he was fighting at a disadvantage, lost, nearly died, but did manage to get rescued. But the CQC training (Exhibited by both himself and his mirror-match-up) foreshadowed his ability to fight, but not triumph over, Kylo Ren.

Also - I really hope that in the sequels, Rey ends up with a double-bladed lightsaber similar to her spear she's trained with.

EDIT: Wait, that wasn't Coruscant and the other Core Worlds destroyed by the big gun? Damn... that takes all the relevance out of the scene. I could have sworn that was them blowing up the previous movies.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

EDIT: Wait, that wasn't Coruscant and the other Core Worlds destroyed by the big gun? Damn... that takes all the relevance out of the scene. I could have sworn that was them blowing up the previous movies.

Not Coruscant, no.

A scene of Naboo disintegrating along with thousands of screaming Gungans might have been amusing.

 

[Scow2]

EDIT: Wait, that wasn't Coruscant and the other Core Worlds destroyed by the big gun? Damn... that takes all the relevance out of the scene. I could have sworn that was them blowing up the previous movies.

Not Coruscant, no.

A scene of Naboo disintegrating along with thousands of screaming Gungans might have been amusing.

Dammit. That takes all the impact out of that scene. I was thinking that they really had pulled the trigger on a world we actually knew and somewhat cared about, instead of just a throwaway system.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Dammit. That takes all the impact out of that scene. I was thinking that they really had pulled the trigger on a world we actually knew and somewhat cared about, instead of just a throwaway system.

You monster! Billions of people died! And at least one crazy looking alien.

I have some sympathy for the Empire/First Order and their obsession with these planetary superweapons. Sure they keep getting destroyed, but goddam if they don't create a lot of havoc first.

 

[Zontar]

I have some sympathy for the Empire/First Order and their obsession with these planetary superweapons. Sure they keep getting destroyed, but goddam if they don't create a lot of havoc first.

Is it really worth it though? I mean two moon sized stations and a converted planet, and collectively they've only destroyed 6 worlds and the ships around them (Not-Coruscant had a fleet in orbit that we could see vaporized by the planet's explosion). The number of ships they could have built with those resources could have done a lot more to keep the worlds of the empire in their place. They had freaking docking bays large enough for Star Destroyers, I think the Imperial Fleet could have done good with that type of material to work with.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Is it really worth it though? I mean two moon sized stations and a converted planet, and collectively they've only destroyed 6 worlds and the ships around them (Not-Coruscant had a fleet in orbit that we could see vaporized by the planet's explosion). The number of ships they could have built with those resources could have done a lot more to keep the worlds of the empire in their place. They had freaking docking bays large enough for Star Destroyers, I think the Imperial Fleet could have done good with that type of material to work with.

The Death Stars...questionable. One planet destroyed for the two Death Stars, and they were relatively small/mobile and required a fleet to protect them. Starkiller base couldn't move, but had a ridiculous firing range. Being able to snipe an entire system from the safety of an entrenched position seems pretty slick. Also a lot easier to staff one super-base than the tens of thousands of ships you'd ostensibly create with the same resources. I can see the allure.

Or I mean, I could, if I were a genocidal madman.

 

[jamail77]

The Darth Maul fight still has them beat though.

Couldn't disagree more. Outside of the contextual/emotional heft of the two Vader/Luke fights, the battle in Force Awakens easily eclipses the other saber fights in the series. Easily. And it looked absolutely gorgeous, too, in the dark/snow.

My disdain for the weightless, tension free shadow fencing of the prequels is pretty well established though. And Maul's death scene...oy vey. For such a "well choreographed" fight having him just stand there gormlessly while Obi-Wan jumps over his head.

Pathetic.

"Aim like a drunkard. Jump like an idiot."

What about this? After saving Finn from the electro staff baton thingy stormtrooper, Han looks straight ahead while taking a blind shot at that one stormtrooper a fair distance to his right side. You know, the guy trying to get a jump on him. It was weird. That's not something I see Han doing honestly. That's more Indiana Jones (even with as similar as the two are as portrayed by Harrison Ford), maybe? Or, Clint Eastwood? It's an old overused cliche anyway. Yes, even for Star Wars. Han is suave and gung ho and all that, but the way he has that come off in an exchange of blaster fire just doesn't involve things like that to me. It's hard to explain. On the other hand, it also did kind of make sense to me. Maybe because it's an older Han. Hmmm. I don't know.

And, I've seen all these excuses for Leia SEEMINGLY avoiding any force training for political and military-ish related duties. Don't buy any of them. It's stupid. Doesn't Luke explicitly tell her in Return of the Jedi that in time she'll learn to use the Force as he has?

I definitely like Kylo Ren better than Anakin, but like others here I thought he was awfully similar. He even kind of looks like him.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

And, I've seen all these excuses for Leia SEEMINGLY avoiding any force training for political and military-ish related duties. Don't buy any of them. It's stupid. Doesn't Luke explicitly tell her in Return of the Jedi that in time she'll learn to use the Force as he has?

The hell? Luke is her brother, not her boss.

And it kind of seems like the whole "let's train some Jedi and usher in a new era of Jedi Stuff" turned out pretty badly. It's possible Leia soured on the idea.

 

[Treeinthewoods]

Lol, everyone I know and myself loved this movie, the general reviews are about how amazing it is. I saw this thread and I just knew that if anyone would hate it it would be the Escapist where liking anything is a sign if weakness.

Wow, wish I could say I am surprised by the opinions in this thread but I'm not. Impossible the please this crowd, it seems.

I had plenty of problems with the movie, but they are easily overshadowed by how fun it was. It was great, and now that Disney has proven themselves I hope Episode VIII can take us into uncharted territory. Hopefully they make another Empire without trying to make another Empire.

Oh no! Not everyone agrees that this movie is great, there must be something wrong with them -_-

That's the only way I can look at these type of comments. Seriously, every time something becomes really popular it brings in this same elitist attitude. You don't know better than everyone else so stop pretending like you do.

I was more laughing at this place being populated by the goth kids from South Park. But there is a point where you might want to admit the problem could be you instead of everyone else as crazy as that sounds.

 

[Darks63]

Fresh out of the theaters my first thought is it felt like a new hope remake there were alot of things from Ep4 that were borrowed like the ultra super duper death star TM. However it was different enough to be enjoyable but in alot of ways it feels way too much like a the safe sequel most people expected it to be.

 

[jamail77]

And it kind of seems like the whole "let's train some Jedi and usher in a new era of Jedi Stuff" turned out pretty badly. It's possible Leia soured on the idea.

I wasn't trying to imply that line meant he would boss her into it, more that it was a surefire thing she would learn whether that be from him, a growing need/curiousity for self-exploration, whatever. I've seen people say things like Jedi live a strict lifestyle she wouldn't want to adhere to or that she thinks she can do more good in political and military-ish roles. But, as someone else put it another thread topic on this movie I don't buy that she wouldn't spend a month getting acquainted with Force abilities that could come in handy. She sent her son to get trained by Luke for a reason. So, she must think there is some degree of importance in the Jedi or at least Force users, yet she neglects herself? It went bad after the fact, way after she could have made the decision to train in some capacity, big (full on Jedi training) or small (getting acquainted with the basics). You're Force sensitive for a reason.

I'm surprised you chose to comment on that rather than the video I linked making fun of the Darth Maul fight everyone praises so much as the best part, even redeeming part of The Phantom Menace. Thought you'd like that \_(&#12484_/

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I wasn't trying to imply that line meant he would boss her into it, more that it was a surefire thing she would learn whether that be from him, a growing need/curiousity for self-exploration, whatever. I've seen people say things like Jedi live a strict lifestyle she wouldn't want to adhere to or that she thinks she can do more good in political and military-ish roles. But, as someone else put it another thread topic on this movie I don't buy that she wouldn't spend a month getting acquainted with Force abilities that could come in handy. She sent her son to get trained by Luke for a reason; she must think there is some degree of importance in the Jedi or at least Force users, yet she neglects herself? It went bad after the fact, way after she could have made the decision to train in some capacity, big (full on Jedi training) or small (getting acquainted with the basics).

Couple things to consider...

1. Leia is first and foremost a politician, and likely would have involved herself in the immediate restructuring of the Galatic Senate, the creation of the disarmament treaties, etc.

2. Sometime shortly after this, she would have involved herself in being pregnant, and then raising a young child with a feckless rogue for a partner.

3. Far more importantly than one and two, Luke had a pretty bad experience with The Force up on the Death Star, wherein he briefly touched the Dark Side and realized he was rapidly skidding down the same sad path his father went down. He got to see first hand the depth of the Emperor's evil, and also the cost of his father's transformations. I don't believe he came back from it vowing to discard his Jedi heritage, but I suspect he was feeling particularly cautious about it. We know he attempted to train some new Jedi, but we don't know what his selection process was, or his reasons for doing it. Did he agree to train Ben because "Neat, more Jedi!" or because he thought Ben was a risk that needed managing?

4. Leia shows some mild signs of force sensitivity, but never had an "awakening" like we see in Luke and Rey, or other force sensitives who go on to become Jedi. Unlike Luke and Rey, she was never hidden away on a desert planet with minimal indigenous life to keep her force sensitivity in hibernation...if she was going to "pop", she most likely would have done so long before the events in Jedi.

5. The fuck does Luke know anyway, he was just being a hype man for the Force at that point in Jedi. He had like 5 days of training and his teachers kept dying. And 95% of the time they spent with him was them understandably wringing their hands over his Very Obvious Dark Side tendencies and trying to get him to chill the fuck out.

I'm surprised you chose to comment on that rather than the video I linked making fun of the Darth Maul fight everyone praises so much as the best part, even redeeming part of The Phantom Menace. Thought you'd like that \_(&#12484_/

Ah, sorry. I had seen that before. It's amusing, yes. I've never understood why the fight choreography is praised in those films. It's hilariously bad.

 

[Saltyk]

Finally saw it. Yay!

Anyway, overall I liked it. I don't think it was quite as good as the original Trilogy, but it was good. I can only hope that Episode VIII will be better as we have a lot of details established that can be more fleshed out in the next movie.

I like Finn, Rey, and Po. I feel they are going to be our new protagonists, with Po taking on the role of Han Solo, even if Rey now owns the Millennium Falcon. I liked that while it seemed Finn was going to be the main character, it seems that Rey is the actual Luke Stand-in. I liked seeing Han and Chewie back in action. BB-8 was adorable and certainly is the new R2. And I'm curious about some of the major players in the First Order who didn't get as much to do in this movie. I liked the fights and battles. Overall, I liked a lot of it.

However, Kylo Ren is not Darth Vader. He's not a bad villain, but he's not Vader or even Maul. And I totally called him being a Skywalker. I was a little disappointed that Han died, but not surprised. I wanted more Luke, he didn't even have a line of dialog.

I also found Rey learning to use her Force powers so easily and beating Kylo Ren to be a bit of a stretch. Kylo has years of experience and two masters who trained him, on top of being the grandson of one of the most powerful Jedi in the history of the galaxy. Now, I suspect that she is actually the daughter of Luke, which would make some sense, but it still seems a bit far-fetched.

8/10
A solid start to a new trilogy.

 

[jamail77]

1. Leia is first and foremost a politician, and likely would have involved herself in the immediate restructuring of the Galatic Senate, the creation of the disarmament treaties, etc.

[snip]

4. Leia shows some mild signs of force sensitivity, but never had an "awakening" like we see in Luke and Rey, or other force sensitives who go on to become Jedi. Unlike Luke and Rey, she was never hidden away on a desert planet with minimal indigenous life to keep her force sensitivity in hibernation...if she was going to "pop", she most likely would have done so long before the events in Jedi.

5. The fuck does Luke know anyway, he was just being a hype man for the Force at that point in Jedi. He had like 5 days of training and his teachers kept dying. And 95% of the time they spent with him was them understandably wringing their hands over his Very Obvious Dark Side tendencies and trying to get him to chill the fuck out.

1. I'm sure she could make time for a lesson or two every now and again.

4. Any sign of Force sensitivity makes you a Jedi candidate. Period. You don't need to suddenly awaken to be able to use the Force actively or train. One could argue the possibility she passively uses the force in the original trilogy to accomplish many feats, something we also see in Force sensitives who go on to become Jedi such as in piloting starfighters and...pod racers.

5. As much as everyone likes to point out how little training Luke got as displayed in the films, and despite what I'm about to say it certainly is minimal, that's just a trick of cinematic time. Luke certainly got more than 5 days especially since it doesn't sound like you're including self training, lightly implied in the movies (he did construct his own lightsaber by Return of the Jedi) and expanded in books and stuff that aren't Disney un-canonized (something about reading Kenobi's journals and things like that...I don't know. I get most of my information on those from Wookieepedia summaries). I agree though otherwise.

The only notable time, that I can think of the top of my head, that a character rejected active Force usage was Kyle Katarn. AND, that was AFTER he thought he'd come too close to turning dark; he was already a Jedi by the time he casted the Force and further more formal training aside (I add that last part because he was mostly self-trained). And, as Star Wars destiny always has it he came back around to it and accepted both the burden and the gift of his Force sensitivity. Of course, he's now not cannon since he's a post Return of the Jedi Expanded Universe/Legacy character.