Star Wars Force Awakens Spoiler Filled discussion thread (no spoiler tags, you've been warned)

[KissingSunlight]

I have been resisting the urge to post a Star Wars rant the past few weeks. I haven't read the previous pages in this thread. I won't doubt I will end up repeating what has been said before. In case, anyone want to skip this. I'll post a TL;DR summation in the spoilers tag.

Spoiler

Who do I think "They" were? Star Wars fans who hated the Prequel Trilogy making a 200 million dollar fan-fiction for other Star Wars fans who hated the Prequel Trilogy.

I had 15 minute commute from the theater to home when I watched Star Wars 7. I went from giving this movie a 4 out 5 to 2 out of 5 by the time I got home. The more I thought about it, more I realized that this movie doesn't hold up. This was essentially Star Wars: Into Darkness. They remade The New Hope and made it worse.

Oh God! Where to start? How about the references? Quoting the famous line from This Is Spinal Tap, there is such a fine line between stupid and clever. There were some clever references in this movie. Most of them were so on the nose that it was cringe-worthy. Combined these references with the point that it were rehashing the same plot points from The New Hope. It demonstrated that this movie lacked any originality. Say what you will about the prequels, it did manage to create something new in the established universe.

Star Wars 7 lacked the Lucas touch. Ever played the game where one person start a story than someone else picks it up where the previous person left off and so on. After a while, you notice that the story starts to get really wonky. The wonkiness started to show everytime a character tries to defend some story point in the original trilogy, or to dismiss something that was established in the prequels. "Stormtroopers are not clones." "Force is a spiritual thing not science." "This is not a Death Star. The new one is bigger and have a nipple."

This is not the Disney Princess you are looking for. I don't mind when the original writer/director trying to update his work. I may disagree with the updates.(Han Shot First!) It's still the vision of the original creator. When someone else, like a big corporation comes in and start dictating revisions like no more "Princess" Leia. Even though, the moment Disney bought Star Wars. Videos like this came out. That stuff gets old really fast and make you want to ignore anything else they would do to the property.

I'm still a Star Wars slut. I could go into minute details of what I liked and didn't like about Episode 7. At the end, it was a decently entertaining movie. I am curious where they are going to go with Luke and Rey. Ren is a weak villain. Hopefully, we will see more of Andy Serkis new character. I liked Oscar Issac ever since Inside Llewyn Davis. He was in the smallest scale sci-fi movie this year, Ex Machina and the largest one. He was good in this. Even though, they broke the rule of show, don't tell when it comes to proving his bona fides of being a great pilot. I don't know if John Boyega's performance was really good or silly and weak. On one hand, he was raised to be a stormtrooper and doesn't know how to act outside of that conditioning. Yet, the way he behaved was really annoying and cowardly. The verdict is still out on him. Another big complaint is that the movie was too earthy. I didn't get the feeling of visiting other planets. There were no space battles. Every battle with fighters happened on a planet. Having said all that, I will watch Episode 8. I am not a fan of Rian Johnson's original works. He seems to be more of a fan of concepts than storytelling. He was really good on Breaking Bad. So, maybe he just needs some established structure around him.

 

[pookie101]

i enjoyed it although the resistance seems to of had a downgrade since the rebel alliance days, they dont seem to have anything bigger than a handful of x wings and a shuttle. i missed the big capital ship fights from the other movies

 

[happyninja42]

He was talking to Leia. When he was saying "...my sister has it..." he was giving her a look and might as well been elbowing her in the ribs. She figured out what he meant.

Oh shit right, I forgot about that.

Okay so it was the "you have it too" line that was added, I presume.

Jesus I just watched it like two weeks ago, my memory is a calamity.

Technically Luke does say "you have that power too", to Leia in Return of the Jedi. But I think the specific phrasing was different. He follows it up with "In time, you will learn to use it as I have."

Personally I think Rey is a Skywalker, partly because of simple narrative structure, but also because of some of the subtle hints they've laid out in the movie. I think the red herring is that Fin is also a Jedi. They kind of trick us with that, but then snatch it away, as he displayed no actual force abilities. I think he's just a "regular" force user, compared to those of the Skywalker bloodline. And that he's going to take more time and effort to gain his powers. That's what I hope happens anyway, I'd like to see both of them become new members of the Jedi order, instead of it always being this 1:1 ration thing. I mean, if the force is "awakening", it would imply a wide-spread resurgence of force users, gaining power.

 

[DefunctTheory]

He was talking to Leia. When he was saying "...my sister has it..." he was giving her a look and might as well been elbowing her in the ribs. She figured out what he meant.

Oh shit right, I forgot about that.

Okay so it was the "you have it too" line that was added, I presume.

Jesus I just watched it like two weeks ago, my memory is a calamity.

Technically Luke does say "you have that power too", to Leia in Return of the Jedi. But I think the specific phrasing was different. He follows it up with "In time, you will learn to use it as I have."

Personally I think Rey is a Skywalker, partly because of simple narrative structure, but also because of some of the subtle hints they've laid out in the movie. I think the red herring is that Fin is also a Jedi. They kind of trick us with that, but then snatch it away, as he displayed no actual force abilities. I think he's just a "regular" force user, compared to those of the Skywalker bloodline. And that he's going to take more time and effort to gain his powers. That's what I hope happens anyway, I'd like to see both of them become new members of the Jedi order, instead of it always being this 1:1 ration thing. I mean, if the force is "awakening", it would imply a wide-spread resurgence of force users, gaining power.

While I thought Finn was a force user prior to the movie, I like that he isn't. I feel like being a minor force user would make Finn smaller - He's better off being a Han Solo like character, getting things done through a combination of skill, pragmatism, and fumbling, bumbling luck. And the sheer power of broism.

 

[COMaestro]

He was talking to Leia. When he was saying "...my sister has it..." he was giving her a look and might as well been elbowing her in the ribs. She figured out what he meant.

Oh shit right, I forgot about that.

Okay so it was the "you have it too" line that was added, I presume.

Jesus I just watched it like two weeks ago, my memory is a calamity.

Technically Luke does say "you have that power too", to Leia in Return of the Jedi. But I think the specific phrasing was different. He follows it up with "In time, you will learn to use it as I have."

The whole sequence of these quotes starts with Leia saying to Luke, "You have a power I don't understand, and could NEVER have." Luke replies, "You're wrong, Leia. You have that power too. In time, you'll learn to use it, as I have." Then all the bits about the Force being strong in his family. So yes, all the lines are ripped right out of ROTJ.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

...then suddenly she can use saber like a pro despite the fact she'd literally never seen such a weapon before that day...

You mean like using it to block incoming fire without being able to see?

Like that?

Luke deflects 3 training blaster shots on the way to Alderaan. That's it. He definitely doesn't do so in actual combat scenarios. He never deflects blaster fire again in either ANH or ESB. Before RotJ, Luke doesn't use his powers much at all outside of training (ignoring whatever critical +5 boost his innate Force sensitivity grants him toward piloting) and his lightsaber gets more use as a blowtorch than as a jedi weapon up until his battle with Darth Vader at the end of ESB.

Sorry, it's not all that comparable.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Luke deflects 3 training blaster shots on the way to Alderaan. That's it. He definitely doesn't do so in actual combat scenarios.

He never has to. He does, however, use the Force to blind-block projectiles. That is a thing he does. How many projectiles does someone have to block with a melee weapon while blind to earn an "impressive" badge? I would argue that number is "1 or greater".

Sorry, it's not all that comparable.

It's entirely comparable. It's not blow for blow identical, despite complaints that the film has "no original plot points", and I suspect if it had been that would just be a new source of complaint. Do something old and reliable with the Force, and you're playing it safe, do something new and slightly different, and you've created a canon-smashing Mary Sue.

 

[happyninja42]

While I thought Finn was a force user prior to the movie, I like that he isn't. I feel like being a minor force user would make Finn smaller - He's better off being a Han Solo like character, getting things done through a combination of skill, pragmatism, and fumbling, bumbling luck. And the sheer power of broism.

I think he will be a force user, just not of the Skywalker line. If we are trying to establish a larger body of force users, aside from just the Skywalkers, it would make sense to establish some other force users in the new trilogy. I just think he's going to be a bit slower build to his connection. I get what you mean about being a "minor" force user, but I don't see it as that. I just see it as the Skywalker's have a more natural affinity for the force, that it comes easily to them, but that other people can be just as powerful with training and dedication. Personally, I think the red herring of Fin not actually being a force user would be a detriment to the story overall, but I do appreciate the "new Han Solo" vibe of him as well. Though personally I think that is being filled by Poe. He's the cocky, charismatic pilot, who can charm his way into, and out of anything. The likeable scoundrel. Which is bascially Han's entire schtick.

I would enjoy Fin's rise to being among the ranks of the Jedi as well, after his beginnings as a member of the First Order more than him simply being a support hero for Rey. Let him have his own heroic arc, culminating with his own blade and badassery moments, to redeem himself in his own eyes with his bad beginnings.

It could go either way of course, it's certainly left very open, and I can see them taking it either route without any issues, I just would prefer to see Fin as a Jedi too. xD

 

[Dazzle Novak]

Luke deflects 3 training blaster shots on the way to Alderaan. That's it. He definitely doesn't do so in actual combat scenarios.

He never has to. He does, however, use the Force to blind-block projectiles. That is a thing he does. How many projectiles does someone have to block with a melee weapon while blind to earn an "impressive" badge? I would argue that number is "1 or greater".

It's like arguing that dominating lay-up drills and shooting back-to-back 3-pointers during practice means you could totally do the same during an actual basketball game against other people.

Luke could, in theory, blind-block blaster fire with his saber. In practice, Luke was ducking blaster fire and crouching behind walls just like Han and Leia. Which is more telling regarding what the movie and characters think of Luke's ability? He came under a lot of fire in both ANH and ERB; he apparently decided he wasn't well-trained enough to do it.

It's entirely comparable. It's not blow for blow identical, despite complaints that the film has "no original plot points", and I suspect if it had been that would just be a new source of complaint. Do something old and reliable with the Force, and you're playing it safe, do something new and slightly different, and you've created a canon-smashing Mary Sue.

Luke, despite being "the chosen one", doesn't get to do much Jedi-specific badass stuff. That's what it boils down to. Yes, he blows up the Death Star, but considering the Rebel plan hinged on that shot even before Luke got involved, it was already theoretically possible for a skilled pilot; the Force just clinched it.

And considering I have no doubt Rey (based on what she pulls with the Falcon) and Poe Damaran (sp?) could pull off the shot that destroyed the Death Star, it's sort of a moot point. Rey in TFA is better than Luke was in ANH. Honestly, she's better than Luke was at the end of ERB. Luke couldn't Mind Trick until RotJ.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Luke could, in theory, blind-block blaster fire with his saber. In practice, Luke was ducking blaster fire and crouching behind walls just like Han and Leia. Which is more telling regarding what the movie and characters think of Luke's ability? He came under a lot of fire in both ANH and ERB; he apparently decided he wasn't well-trained enough to do it.

You mean he came under fire when he successfully rescued Leia from inside the Death Star, which he later returned to blow up, something no other pilot in the fleet was able to accomplish?

I'm sorry, Dazzle. I know you hated the film, or disliked it and have chosen to take up the mantle of "hated it" to battle against what you feel is unwarranted praise, but there's some RIDICULOUS reaching going on to slam Rey's characterization. A character with a mysterious background and unknown parentage emerges as a force sensitivity prodigy in fucking STAR WARS of all things, and a tiny portion of the audience is crying foul about it. It's very difficult to express in words how ridiculous this particular complaint is, issued one film into a three film trilogy. Eyes aren't meant to roll this much.

 

[Zacharious-khan]

The film was pretty tit for tat in the first half, everything I disliked was balanced out with things I liked, and then "Kylo Ren" took his helmet off and I wanted to leave the theater every five minutes for the rest of the film.

Rey is the focal point of all the worst parts of that movie for me. No character, No Flaws, Awkward scenes. So Frustrating

 

[COMaestro]

It's interesting to me how polarizing this film is among fans. Rey = best/worst character, Ren = best/worst character, Finn = awesome/annoying, Ford = in peak form/phoning it in, etc. More so than usual, I feel this particular film really seems to go to either extreme for people compared to others where there's more of an average feeling towards characters and story with just a few outliers.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

Luke could, in theory, blind-block blaster fire with his saber. In practice, Luke was ducking blaster fire and crouching behind walls just like Han and Leia. Which is more telling regarding what the movie and characters think of Luke's ability? He came under a lot of fire in both ANH and ERB; he apparently decided he wasn't well-trained enough to do it.

You mean he came under fire when he successfully rescued Leia from inside the Death Star, which he later returned to blow up, something no other pilot in the fleet was able to accomplish?

Luke didn't rescue Leia and I have a feeling in an argument where you weren't trying to frame Luke as a Mary Sue you wouldn't diminish Leia's agency in such a fashion. Their escape was mutual, a constant game of hot potato regarding which one came up with an idea to save the other two idiots. In other words, Luke rescued Leia rescued Han rescued Luke... You're intentionally mischaracterizing events to support your point and, sadly, mischaracterization will be a running theme throughout your post.

As for the Death Star, that's the stupidity of a moon-sized Station having a 2km-wide self-destruct button, not Luke being deemed super-awesome. It didn't require supernatural proficiency considering the other pilots attempted the shot when given the opportunity and all exhibited some expectation of success.

Frankly, Luke is treated like a loser throughout ANH and ESB. He's whiny. He gets knocked on his ass constantly (e.g. roughed up at Mos Eisley, scarred by the Yeti thing, shot down on Hoth, chastised by Yoda, dismembered, etc.) He doesn't really get to play with his cool sword until the end of his second movie and doesn't become a space wizard until his third. Hell, as much of an author avatar for Lucas as Luke is, Lucas doesn't even portray the obligatory romance between the hero and rescued princess as reciprocal. Luke has a crush; Leia treats him like a brother from jump.

Despite all of this, I'm supposed to call it a wash and say him and Rey are portrayed as equally competent? They're not. It's not an issue of characterization, but of plotting. I like Rey. Daisy Ridley is a charming, magnetic actress who imbues the character with a lot of heart and warmth.

I'm sorry, Dazzle. I know you hated the film, or disliked it and have chosen to take up the mantle of "hated it" to battle against what you feel is unwarranted praise, but there's some RIDICULOUS reaching going on to slam Rey's characterization.

You know nothing, Jon Snow.

All this griping aside, I'm excited to pay and go see the movie a second time. Not everyone who's bringing up complaints are joyless haters trying to rain on the parade.

That's totally the reaction of a guy with a blood-grudge against the new Star Wars and strong female protagonists.

I'm ranting because I'm ticked off by the glib, dismissive arguments being used to defend the movie. Point blank. This is the first time I've been forced to side with the "I'm no miss soggy knees!" crowd because the other has been so trigger-happy. I loved Mad Max: Fury Road, but I'm being told I'm intimidated by strong female leads. Right...

If such people really want to get "intersectional social politics" regarding characterization, why does the woman have to be propped up on the back of the black character, huh? Finn (who was my favorite character, mind you) comes off like C-3PO compared to all the boundless heroics of Rey, Poe, and Han.

[A character with a mysterious background and unknown parentage emerges as a force sensitivity prodigy in fucking STAR WARS of all things, and a tiny portion of the audience is crying foul about it. It's very difficult to express in words how ridiculous this particular complaint is, issued one film into a three film trilogy. Eyes aren't meant to roll this much.

What backstory could she possibly have that isn't Anakin Skywalker "virgin birth" prequel horseshit? She was dropped off on Jakku at the age of five. What are we looking forward to? An amnesiac who was the most incredibly well-trained Jedi toddler in the universe's history?

Moreover, "I'm sure the next movie will explain" is a declaration of faith that I'm not required to grant. What if the sequel is just as patchy in its exposition? Then I'll be lectured for not indulging all of the supplemental novels and comics, I'm sure. A New Hope stands on its own. The fact it didn't have a guaranteed sequel worked in its favor. Leave "open-ended" storytelling to TV where the wait between episodes isn't two to three years.

 

[Fappy]

It's interesting to me how polarizing this film is among fans. Rey = best/worst character, Ren = best/worst character, Finn = awesome/annoying, Ford = in peak form/phoning it in, etc. More so than usual, I feel this particular film really seems to go to either extreme for people compared to others where there's more of an average feeling towards characters and story with just a few outliers.

I'd say it only really appears this way because the opinions you're most likely to read online tend to be polarizing by nature. Most people won't bother posting their opinion unless they feel strongly one way or the other. The vast, vast majority of people I know who saw the movie enjoyed it and have average feelings about the characters.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

...mischaracterization will be a running theme throughout your post.

Frankly, Luke is treated like a loser throughout ANH and ESB.

I'm speechless. If you cannot perceive the degree to which you're reaching at this point, we've long since flown past the point where we can have a productive exchange. This is boggling.

I'm ranting because I'm ticked off by the glib, dismissive arguments being used to defend the movie.

And here we go. By admission, you are polarized, and ranting. For every 'glib dismissive' argument you feel you've been forced to address (for some reason) you are now firing back with several of your own.

This is the first time I've been forced to side with the "I'm no miss soggy knees!" crowd because the other has been so trigger-happy. I loved Mad Max: Fury Road, but I'm being told I'm intimidated by strong female leads. Right...

The fuck? I said nothing of the sort. Get off your cross.

What are we looking forward to?

I have no idea, and neither do you. I usually withhold judgment on things I haven't seen yet, but you appear quite comfortable. You summarily hand wave the question of cliff hangers or keeping things unknown from one movie to another, suggesting the film should "stand on its own", presumably with all plot points nicely tied off with a bow by the time the credits roll. Maybe a nice medal ceremony. Sounds like Phantom Menace might be a film more to your enjoyment.

 

[Fappy]

Sounds like Phantom Menace might be a film more to your enjoyment.

Low blow, man. Low fucking blow.

I was with you until this point, but that's just cruel.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I'd say it only really appears this way because the opinions you're most likely to read online tend to be polarizing by nature. Most people won't bother posting their opinion unless they feel strongly one way or the other. The vast, vast majority of people I know who saw the movie enjoyed it and have average feelings about the characters.

http://variety.com/2015/film/news/star-wars-the-force-awakens-twitter-reactions-1201666196/

One of the most positive social media reactions to a film in recorded history.

To get its results, the social media research firm recorded 1,517,824 tweets about the film from the time it began screening on Thursday through the end of Sunday. It found that 70% of comments for the picture were positive, with the other 29% a neutral reaction that was generally focusing on the film?s box office performance rather than its critical merits.

"Usually some segment of the audience is disappointed," said Carlson. "But there wasn't much people didn't like about this one. People loved all the characters, loved all the major plot points, and are trying desperately not to put any spoilers in their tweets."

For a blockbuster of this size and popular appeal, negative reactions typically make up 5% of the social media chatter. Positive responses are lucky to come in at 50%, Carlson said.

I've spent quite a bit of time on the sub reddit too, and the reaction there is also overwhelmingly positive, in roughly equivalent proportions.

The ONLY place I've found "polarized/angry debate" is here at the Escapist, and imagine my complete lack of surprise given the state of this community over the last couple of years. With a few notable exceptions, it's the same rasher of suspects too.

Low blow, man. Low fucking blow.

I was with you until this point, but that's just cruel.

It's a stand alone movie that closes all its plot points! It leaves absolutely nothing to speculate about.

 

[Fappy]

-Snip-

I've been lurking the sub-reddit too, mostly for the theories and such. But you're right, there are very few people on there who are upset about the movie.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I've been lurking the sub-reddit too, mostly for the theories and such. But you're right, there are very few people on there who are upset about the movie.

There's a few, but even those few seem more annoyed at Reddit than the film. "ROAR CIRCLEJERK ROAR" goes the usual cry of the person who feels they hold a minority opinion in their sub reddit of choice.

Have you read any of the novelization "spoilers"? The stuff that wasn't in the film?

Like Kylo Ren recognizing Rey?

 

[Fappy]

I've been lurking the sub-reddit too, mostly for the theories and such. But you're right, there are very few people on there who are upset about the movie.

There's a few, but even those few seem more annoyed at Reddit than the film. "ROAR CIRCLEJERK ROAR" goes the usual cry of the person who feels they hold a minority opinion in their sub reddit of choice.

Have you read any of the novelization "spoilers"? The stuff that wasn't in the film?

Like Kylo Ren recognizing Rey?

Yeah, I am going to hold those little differences as clues to the truth rather than canon. Apparently the book was based off an earlier version of the script, so who knows what may have been changed. The main thing I hope that isn't canon from the book is Ren knowing Vader was redeemed. I like the idea that he either doesn't know or has been convinced Vader's redemption is a lie (probably Luke's).