The issue is not that the Jedi are bad people, but that as written by Lucas they are bad people, because Lucas is a bad writer. If one can find an in universe fix for such an out of universe problem that's great, but if you can't it is better to simply cut out the cancer by declaring the story uncanon.
Umm dude. The Jedis taking control of a slave army was made known in Episode II and referenced in Episode IV. Karen Traviss just expanded on it by making a Mando clan consisting of a bunch of clone commandos, a Jedi who left the order because of said hypocrisy, a Twilek, 2 accountants for the Republic, one Mando and his daughter, another Mando and his strill, a dead Jedi and her baby with a clone commando (adoption works posthumous for Mandos, and the baby was born before her death).
Edit: Boy were some of those clones and Mandos pissed off when Order 66 went down. And not for the usual reasons either. It has to do with the dead Jedi mother. Seriously read the books. The Republic and Imperial Commmando series. They are good. People that don't live KArren Traviss just aggrandize the Old Republic Jedi.
The Clone Wars were referenced in Ep IV but not who's side they were on. Before the prequels, all the lore, even the Empire Strikes Back Novels suggested the Jedi fraught against the Clone Masters to protect the republic. In the end defeated the mysterious Mandalorian warriors.
But a trade despite and droids were apparently more convenient. Anakin blowing up a mother ship wouldn't cause clones to collapse.
Doesnt matter what that lore says anymore. The prequels are canon. The Republic Commando stuff isnt anymore. I am just saying that even with the prequels you can clearly see that the Jedi took command of a slave army. Order 66 was just the Force balancing the account if you ask me. Seriously, what a bunch of idiots. Hypocrites all, except the New Jed... oh wait not canon either.
Besides what was wrong with a trade dispute and droids? You think that it doesnt have parallels to real life? It does. Kuwait in 1991 comes to mind. I have no idea what you are talking about clones and mothership there dude.
No, I agree. It isn't just the clone slaves either, the Jedi in the prequels just seemed like ineffectual jerks the whole time. No wonder Ikrit Left.
No problem with droids, per-se, and some of the designs were good, but it wasn't what I was expecting with the Thrawn Trillogy being my favorite property from star wars when I was growing up. The enemy's being droids also let the jedi destroy at will without having the moral issue of killing hundreds of people. Just like the foot clan in Ninja turtles.
and I meant, that the enemy being droids meant Anakin could save everyone with one shot by blowing up the ship in the first one, where that wouldn't have ended the battle if it had been the mad clones.
The issue is not that the Jedi are bad people, but that as written by Lucas they are bad people, because Lucas is a bad writer. If one can find an in universe fix for such an out of universe problem that's great, but if you can't it is better to simply cut out the cancer by declaring the story uncanon.
Umm dude. The Jedis taking control of a slave army was made known in Episode II and referenced in Episode IV. Karen Traviss just expanded on it by making a Mando clan consisting of a bunch of clone commandos, a Jedi who left the order because of said hypocrisy, a Twilek, 2 accountants for the Republic, one Mando and his daughter, another Mando and his strill, a dead Jedi and her baby with a clone commando (adoption works posthumous for Mandos, and the baby was born before her death).
Edit: Boy were some of those clones and Mandos pissed off when Order 66 went down. And not for the usual reasons either. It has to do with the dead Jedi mother. Seriously read the books. The Republic and Imperial Commmando series. They are good. People that don't live KArren Traviss just aggrandize the Old Republic Jedi.
The Clone Wars were referenced in Ep IV but not who's side they were on. Before the prequels, all the lore, even the Empire Strikes Back Novels suggested the Jedi fraught against the Clone Masters to protect the republic. In the end defeated the mysterious Mandalorian warriors.
But a trade despite and droids were apparently more convenient. Anakin blowing up a mother ship wouldn't cause clones to collapse.
Doesnt matter what that lore says anymore. The prequels are canon. The Republic Commando stuff isnt anymore. I am just saying that even with the prequels you can clearly see that the Jedi took command of a slave army. Order 66 was just the Force balancing the account if you ask me. Seriously, what a bunch of idiots. Hypocrites all, except the New Jed... oh wait not canon either.
Besides what was wrong with a trade dispute and droids? You think that it doesnt have parallels to real life? It does. Kuwait in 1991 comes to mind. I have no idea what you are talking about clones and mothership there dude.
No, I agree. It isn't just the clone slaves either, the Jedi in the prequels just seemed like ineffectual jerks the whole time. No wonder Ikrit Left.
No problem with droids, per-se, and some of the designs were good, but it wasn't what I was expecting with the Thrawn Trillogy being my favorite property from star wars when I was growing up. The enemy's being droids also let the jedi destroy at will without having the moral issue of killing hundreds of people. Just like the foot clan in Ninja turtles.
and I meant, that the enemy being droids meant Anakin could save everyone with one shot by blowing up the ship in the first one, where that wouldn't have ended the battle if it had been the mad clones.
Ikrit? Who is Ikrit again? remind me please. I know of only 2 Jedis who left. Jedi Knight Bardan Jusik and the other big guy who at one point did command clones.
The issue is not that the Jedi are bad people, but that as written by Lucas they are bad people, because Lucas is a bad writer. If one can find an in universe fix for such an out of universe problem that's great, but if you can't it is better to simply cut out the cancer by declaring the story uncanon.
Umm dude. The Jedis taking control of a slave army was made known in Episode II and referenced in Episode IV. Karen Traviss just expanded on it by making a Mando clan consisting of a bunch of clone commandos, a Jedi who left the order because of said hypocrisy, a Twilek, 2 accountants for the Republic, one Mando and his daughter, another Mando and his strill, a dead Jedi and her baby with a clone commando (adoption works posthumous for Mandos, and the baby was born before her death).
Edit: Boy were some of those clones and Mandos pissed off when Order 66 went down. And not for the usual reasons either. It has to do with the dead Jedi mother. Seriously read the books. The Republic and Imperial Commmando series. They are good. People that don't live KArren Traviss just aggrandize the Old Republic Jedi.
The Clone Wars were referenced in Ep IV but not who's side they were on. Before the prequels, all the lore, even the Empire Strikes Back Novels suggested the Jedi fraught against the Clone Masters to protect the republic. In the end defeated the mysterious Mandalorian warriors.
But a trade despite and droids were apparently more convenient. Anakin blowing up a mother ship wouldn't cause clones to collapse.
Doesnt matter what that lore says anymore. The prequels are canon. The Republic Commando stuff isnt anymore. I am just saying that even with the prequels you can clearly see that the Jedi took command of a slave army. Order 66 was just the Force balancing the account if you ask me. Seriously, what a bunch of idiots. Hypocrites all, except the New Jed... oh wait not canon either.
Besides what was wrong with a trade dispute and droids? You think that it doesnt have parallels to real life? It does. Kuwait in 1991 comes to mind. I have no idea what you are talking about clones and mothership there dude.
No, I agree. It isn't just the clone slaves either, the Jedi in the prequels just seemed like ineffectual jerks the whole time. No wonder Ikrit Left.
No problem with droids, per-se, and some of the designs were good, but it wasn't what I was expecting with the Thrawn Trillogy being my favorite property from star wars when I was growing up. The enemy's being droids also let the jedi destroy at will without having the moral issue of killing hundreds of people. Just like the foot clan in Ninja turtles.
and I meant, that the enemy being droids meant Anakin could save everyone with one shot by blowing up the ship in the first one, where that wouldn't have ended the battle if it had been the mad clones.
Ikrit? Who is Ikrit again? remind me please. I know of only 2 Jedis who left. Jedi Knight Bardan Jusik and the other big guy who at one point did command clones.
Leonia Tavira might argue with you there. Even if she, uh, didn't quite do it officially per se.
That is a good point though. Palpatine's Empire was supposed to be both humanocentric and thoroughly chauvinist. I suppose it's meant to be all hurr blurr grey morality most of the Empire isn't actually evil urg.
Or alternately the Glorious New Canon Curators just don't give a fuck. Probably the latter since the former would imply some level of understanding.
But I have to say it seems oddly... Inapt? Narrow?... To suggest there's a "lack of diversity" in a world that has prominently featured giant sentient slug crime lords, commanding officers who look like fish, a first mate/pilot who looks like a giant dog, people with tentacles coming out of their heads, etc.
Yeah, but honestly that just makes the shortcomings of being diverse in human characters all the stranger. Star Wars struggles with this. Yes there are fish commanding officers and other crazy aliens, yet for a long time there was that old joke "Lando is the only black person in the galaxy."
Leonia Tavira might argue with you there. Even if she, uh, didn't quite do it officially per se.
That is a good point though. Palpatine's Empire was supposed to be both humanocentric and thoroughly chauvinist. I suppose it's meant to be all hurr blurr grey morality.
But I have to say it seems oddly... Inapt? Narrow?... To suggest there's a "lack of diversity" in a world that has prominently featured giant sentient slug crime lords, commanding officers who look like fish, a first mate/pilot who looks like a giant dog, people with tentacles coming out of their heads, etc.
Yeah, but honestly that just makes the shortcomings of being diverse in human characters all the stranger. Star Wars struggles with this. Yes there are fish commanding officers and other crazy aliens, yet for a long time there was that old joke "Lando is the only black person in the galaxy."
for decades the galaxy far, far away <a href=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/moviesandtv/reviews/12855-Star-Wars-Rebels-Review-Episode-10-Idiot-s-Array>only had one black guy
Correction: 2 black guys. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grizz_Frix (Well, at least until Endor)
OT: So even Disney is jumping on the "look at how diverse we are guys!" bandwagon. Well, I guess killing off the old EU and getting rid of Juhani, the Mando couple, Gavin/Asyr, and all the other inter-species couples [i/]was[/i] good for something. Though, I remember them saying Clone Wars was still canon (urgh), sooo technically, this is the third (but first explicit) LGBT character behind Ahsoka and Barriss.
Isn't that kinda the end goal? A world where sexuality is so irrelevant that a character being homosexual is no more news worthy than a character being straight?
Isn't that kinda the end goal? A world where sexuality is so irrelevant that a character being homosexual is no more news worthy than a character being straight?
Sure, end goal, but it's not particularly accurate to claim we are there yet. Same as I don't want the fire brigade telling me the fires out and driving away until after they've dealt with the fire.
It's the type of gay character that most appeal to the straight white heterosexual male demographic that absolutely everyone considers first (and often only).
I think the porn industry has probably had a bigger effect on the inclusion of hot lesbians as LGBT activism has.
Just as an aside I bet the Padawan/ Master relationship with the Jedi included a fair amount of gay sex.
So what is to say that Yoda isn't gay? Hell what about people who aren't Jedi but its just not a thing that came up? Maybe Grand Moff Tarkin is bisexual?
So I guess I just find it a little jarring that the same isn't assumed by everyone else already; to the point that this explicitly needs to be spelled out like this.
I agree with this. I've always found the best written characters are written as themselves and not shoehorned into a role because, "Hey, we need to represent other people." It's been a while since I've read a book with a character of a different sexual orientation; but when I did, what made me enjoy the story and get into the mind of the character was that it was a blatant "look at this character!" because of one attribute.
When the situation comes up, it should be a moment of "Oh! I didn't know that about this character!" - AND IT SHOULD BE THAT WAY because they're not any different than any other person except in their sexual orientation. I believe that's how you get people with a prejudice to empathize with the character more and follow the story is when something like that is unexpected - because if you're going into a story looking for someone of particular sexual preferences, you're not looking for a well written story (say, in the Star Wars universe) you're looking for something that writes about sexual experiences. That's a completely different story.
People will never be happy no matter how much you pander to them. Focusing on the sexuality of the character instead of story doesnt matter to me. In the end of the day it doesnt affect the quality of the story in any way shape of form. Which is why it would be more exciting if they anounced something big story/lore related instead.
I don't mind this at all; the announcement making headlines that is -I'm lesbian my self, of course I don't mind gay people-. I suppose its a way to sort of shake up the 'defaults' a bit. Not sure if this is the right way to go about doing that, but I also don't have any better suggestions.. I'll drool over any fictional ladies I want though, regardless of their stated sexual preference!
mariosonicfan5 said:
Seriously though, fine article and all but one black guy?
Come on now I know people on this site hate on the prequels a lot but Mace Windu was freakin awesome...and he was Samuel L. Jackson! Why do people consistently leave him out!?
Can't really blame people for forgetting though; never has the great Mr. Jackson put in a blander performance! I suppose it's down to the direction he got, but he's just incredibly boring in those movies. I remember him easy because I -being a huge SW nerd- watched those movies a whole bunch of times. I certainly didn't watch them for him though!
Edit: Boy were some of those clones and Mandos pissed off when Order 66 went down. And not for the usual reasons either. It has to do with the dead Jedi mother. Seriously read the books. The Republic and Imperial Commmando series. They are good. People that don't live KArren Traviss just aggrandize the Old Republic Jedi.
I know what happened. Like the entire "Jedi use slave soldiers" issue, it is an Out of Universe problem (Traviss being an asshole and a propagandist) with In Universe symptoms.
The Jedi woman died protecting clone troopers from the children they were murdering, therefore Order 66 is A-OK! A Jedi general has no response to a clone trooper using the Nuremberg Defense and shitting on everything it means to be a moral person and a soldier, therefore Order 66 is A-OK! Traviss doesn't know how to do math so she thinks it's physically impossible for the droid army to be as big as it is, therefore the Clone Wars were blown out proportion as part of a Jedi plot and Order 66 is A-OK!
Edit: Boy were some of those clones and Mandos pissed off when Order 66 went down. And not for the usual reasons either. It has to do with the dead Jedi mother. Seriously read the books. The Republic and Imperial Commmando series. They are good. People that don't live KArren Traviss just aggrandize the Old Republic Jedi.
I know what happened. Like the entire "Jedi use slave soldiers" issue, it is an Out of Universe problem (Traviss being an asshole and a propagandist) with In Universe symptoms.
The Jedi woman died protecting clone troopers from the children they were murdering, therefore Order 66 is A-OK! A Jedi general has no response to a clone trooper using the Nuremberg Defense and shitting on everything it means to be a moral person and a soldier, therefore Order 66 is A-OK! Traviss doesn't know how to do math so she thinks it's physically impossible for the droid army to be as big as it is, therefore the Clone Wars were blown out proportion as part of a Jedi plot and Order 66 is A-OK!
How is "Jedi use slave soldiers" fucking propaganda? Seriously? Nobody in their right mind in a civilized society in this day and age would ever advocate for such a thing, the use of clones as soldiers without any sort of rights. Or unethical experiments like we saw in the Nazi camps. Hell your so-called "propaganda" pops up in the freaking kids show Clone Wars in season 2 or 3 (forget which one) where a clone betrays the army cause he saw he was a slave. So don't come to me and talk to me about propaganda.
Also have you even read the freaking books. Seriously? Have you even read them? Like a quadrillion battle droids (Republic propaganda ho)? vs 2 to 3 million clones? The Republic would have fallen long before the first shot was even fired dude. If you are gonna bring in math, at least read the fucking books. Also and SPOILERS HERE SON: THe dead Jedi mother (Etain Tur-Murkan) has a son with a Clone COmmando (Darman of Omega Squad). She dies in the purge at the hands of Jedi as she defended a clone trooper while attempting to escape Coruscant. That is why the Mando clan is pissed, cause one of their own (posthumous adoption counted in the old lore for Mandos) got killed by the Jedi.
And let us fucking face it: The Jedi were hypocrites (spouting all life is precious than taking command of a slave army I mean come the fuck on), and Order 66 was karmic justice from a point of view, but the clones were used by the Sith Lord. I don't think you read the books or watched the movies dude. Hell the songs playing during Order 66 in Episode III makes a clear case for "cry motherfuckers, the Jedi are dead". Besides we only see one Padawan being killed by the clones. All the other younglings are killed by (drumroll bitches) Anakin SKywalker. Also Order 66 was a contingency order in case the Jedi would ever turn against the Republic (not that fictional since the New Jedi Order does go against the Galactic Alliance when Natasi Daala attacked the Jedi Temple) and you can't exactly restrain Force-users like a normal being.
So what have we learned here kids today? Don't talk shit about stuff you clearly have no idea about, get educated, read a book or two.
Edit: Padawans weren't children. You are confusing younglings with Padawans. They were teenagers, and more than capable of handling a few clones. Besides if you read the book the standing order for the clone commandos after that day was to bring in Padawans and lesser Jedi Knights in alive. The Masters though, they were shoot to kill.
Edit 2: Also if you read the book you would see that Mandos really hated when children were targeted. Or when entire planets were entirely cleansed of life. Or when noncombatants were used as shieldss. But then again reading between the lines or reading comprehension is something that nerds really seem to lack.
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