StarCraft 2 Tournament Boots Player for Rape Comment

FalloutJack

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Nov 20, 2008
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insaninater said:
Any word can hurt people.
Let's not get over our heads. There are words that are pointedly used in an offensive manner and those that are not. I can't offend people with just ANY word. I mean, come on. Tractor! Duct tape! Pocket lint! Horseshoes! It doesn't work. You need something a bit more potent. Like...the George Carlin words. I can't offend you if I call you something that isn't offensive.
 

JimB

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Apr 1, 2012
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insaninater said:
Any word can hurt people. Prioritizing overly sensitive people over the First Amendment strikes me as unconscionable.
Until and unless you have experienced what it is like to be raped, I do not believe you have any right to judge the sensitivity of those who have...and even then, honestly, I'm not sure you have a leg to stand on. You have no right to declare that someone's subjective reaction to an intensely personal pain is somehow wrong, nor to dismiss their pain as being somehow unreal or irrelevant in order to justify your continuing to knowingly and willfully inflict pain on them.

Incidentally, the First Amendment is irrelevant in this discussion in a lot of different ways. In the first place, no one I'm aware of is talking about passing any legislation banning use of the word "rape;" your right to continue to gleefully crow about how funny sexual violence is remains intact, as does mine to decry it. In the second place, the First Amendment is only an American law, not a moral truth. In the third place, since the incident we're discussing took place in Sweden, I don't know what American law has to do with anything.

insaninater said:
Also, do you have the statistics to back up the assertion that more people get raped than get murdered?
Yes.

insaninater said:
Or that more people get raped then face violence?
I didn't say that one. You did.
 

FalloutJack

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Nov 20, 2008
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insaninater said:
FalloutJack said:
insaninater said:
Any word can hurt people.
Let's not get over our heads. There are words that are pointedly used in an offensive manner and those that are not. I can't offend people with just ANY word. I mean, come on. Tractor! Duct tape! Pocket lint! Horseshoes! It doesn't work. You need something a bit more potent. Like...the George Carlin words. I can't offend you if I call you something that isn't offensive.
You've clearly never heard of triggers, or even of subjectivity.
You're clearly taking this way too far, or even personally somehow.

You can't claim offense because I go "Knuckle, Underwear, Fastball, Jukebox!". See, your reasoning relates to a personal psychological problem in people which is definitely far, far, far, far from saying you're gonna rape someone. I have taken Psychology, and I understand quite well.
 

FalloutJack

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Nov 20, 2008
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insaninater said:
No, I think you're ignoring that the words I've been using are just words. The one you used is an intent. And I'm calling your psychology bluff, as it was clearly used to parrot me in order to be rude. So, of the two of us, who just effectively made the wrong comment to get reported? That would be the one who's calling names like 'Ignorant'. It's the same faux pas.
 

Vivi22

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Aug 22, 2010
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insaninater said:
FalloutJack said:
insaninater said:
FalloutJack said:
insaninater said:
Any word can hurt people.
Let's not get over our heads. There are words that are pointedly used in an offensive manner and those that are not. I can't offend people with just ANY word. I mean, come on. Tractor! Duct tape! Pocket lint! Horseshoes! It doesn't work. You need something a bit more potent. Like...the George Carlin words. I can't offend you if I call you something that isn't offensive.
You've clearly never heard of triggers, or even of subjectivity.
You're clearly taking this way too far, or even personally somehow.

You can't claim offense because I go "Knuckle, Underwear, Fastball, Jukebox!". See, your reasoning relates to a personal psychological problem in people which is definitely far, far, far, far from saying you're gonna rape someone. I have taken Psychology, and I understand quite well.
Except you're ignoring the context of the quote. It was by someone, whose first language isn't english, who was playing a video game, where the term "rape you" has meant "defeat you in this game" for years.

I'd say your willful ignorance of the context relates to a personal psychological problem. I've taken psychology too.
Does it really matter if someone ignores context when such context was always pretty stupid and disgusting to begin with? I won't say that I don't use the term rape that way with some of my closest friends, but anyone who goes around saying it to strangers or in a game is a douche anyway. Particularly if said person is stupid enough to say it at a major tournament and they're supposed to be a "professional" player.
 

JimB

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insaninater said:
Beat = subjected to violence without necessarily dying.
There are approximately twenty-five definitions of the word "beat" in my dictionary. Maybe three of them directly reference or imply violence, and none of them say what you think it means.

insaninater said:
Since you are alright with using the word beat, but not rape, and you've based whether it's OK or not to use a word based on the frequency of the crime associated with it, you would have to also show that there are less victims of beatings as there are of rapists, otherwise you're not judging on the criteria you said you were judging on.
Once again, I never brought up the word "beat." You did that. I responded to "murder" and "annihilate." Further, I never said the frequency of the crime is the determining factor; please read the closing paragraph of my post, where I say I dislike casual use of the word because that use hurts people. And hell, as long as I'm asking you for favors, stop telling me what my argument is. You either cannot understand it or are willfully misrepresenting it in order to paint me as a hypocrite, and in either event it is dishonest, irritating, and disrespectful. If you have trouble understanding my claims, then feel free to ask me for clarification and I'll do my best, but don't tell me what I said, particularly when what I said is still in this damned thread for people to read.

insaninater said:
Again, I'd like to see your numbers, burden of proof is on you, who claims there are more rapes.
I'm tempted to refuse just because given how many times you've directly misrepresented me in this thread alone--it makes me feel contrary--but what the hell: the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime [http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/Homicide/Globa_study_on_homicide_2011_web.pdf] reports that only about 468,000 homicides occurred in 2010, while for that same year, the CDC [www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf] reports 18.3% of American women alone suffered sexual violence. Given a population of 308,745,538 that year, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_Census] that means an estimated 2.8 billion women were raped in America alone, to say nothing of the men in America and the people in the rest of the world.
 

Falling_v1legacy

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Nov 3, 2009
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valium said:
Falling said:
AgedGrunt said:
Gethsemani said:
Rape may be a colloquial slang for totally dominating someone in a game, but that only tells us how immature gaming culture still is. It doesn't necessarily make this "lighthearted" use of the word alright.
Where it's common to be called a ******, racist names, told that your mother does everything with your opponents, face death threats and people have had SWAT teams sent to their homes by psychotic trolls who either want teh lulz or mentally cannot handle a gaming rival, you need a vulgar slang like rape to tell you how immature gamers can be?

Can we just admit that people mostly accept the shit in gaming culture but they view rape/misogyny to be an exception beyond anything because some feminists and Jimothy Sterlings of the world told them it is?
Again. People keep trying rope Starcraft into the capital G, Gamer culture. We are not a subset of bro-shooters/ the Halo crowd. Nor are we a subset of the Fighting Game crowd. The foundations of Starcraft 2 gamer culture was laid in Starcraft BW, which looked up to Korean Starcraft. And Korean was very professional, very respectful, and yet contained good-natured trash talking. Being called a ****** and racist names was not a part of mainstream Starcraft culture.

Yes, you can find individuals and certain sub-groups within Starcraft that spew offensive language, but even bad boy Idra had his leash pulled by his own team over some comments he made. Over on our forums on Team Liquid, you might be able to flame a person if you're clever and/or a veteran, but you will last much longer if you are respectful:
If you must flame, be smart or creative about it, and make sure the flame was deserved. In general, you'll never go wrong by being nice, polite, and mature.
However, spewing racist crap will get you banned. We don't tolerate it, and we have never tolerated it, long before SJWs and tumblr feminists became a thing. When you defend saying 'rape' on the basis of being able to say '******' and racist names, you are not defending mainstream Starcraft culture. Offensive things are said by certain Starcraft players, but that is not what we have aspired to. There was a time when we turned our noses up on bro-shooter gaming culture. When SC2 went big, I'm not sure that our crowds are that different anymore, but that elitist 'we're above this' is still in our DNA.

tldr: so-called Gaming Culture is not monolothic. Not all gaming communities value the same things. If you defend using 'rape' on the basis that gamers also say ****** and racist names... you aren't defending Starcraft culture, and please stop. We don't actually want you to defend the right to say any of those words in our tournaments. The majority of us don't want our tournaments to devolve like that.
You are being very disingenuous about the starcraft community. The korean scene and foreign scene has always been very different. Hell, you can find an old BW video of chill vs combatex being casted by day9 where day9 say all sorts of things overly sensitive people would have problems with. Speaking of which, people like combatex and destiny and deezer exist, and they have followings, especially destiny, so this korean starcraft model of the foreign starcraft community falls apart.

That said, kas was exceedingly unprofessional, and given his english skills, probably an action of ignorance. The tournament had every right to disqualify kas when he linked the tweet to their tournament. Maddelisk did not seek to have kas disqualified from the tournament, I don't even recall her asking for an apology, kas did that on his own. Given the testimony of other pros, kas is normally a manner player, so his apology seems sincere.
It's not disengenuous at all. I very clearly stated that there were exceptions. I didn't give names, but cited the old US East server amongst other examples. But there is a reason CombatEx was viewed the way he was... he was pariah on Team Liquid. Deezer had his fans, yes (not sure where he or them are now.) However, these are the exceptions rather than the rule. They were never the cream of the crop Starcraft players. They made a name for themselves by being douches, but were more or less ghetto-ized. We certainly refused to let CombatEx return on any alt account no matter how many times he promised he had changed (he never really did.) There are also freak-shows like Terror, but again an exception rather than a rule... and I really would rather not see Terror in any tourney.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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My basic thought is that political correctness has no place here. Like it or not trash talking, intimidation, and similar things have a place in competition, and by definition you use anything that works, racism, sexism, rape threats, it's all good within this context as the idea is to get under your opponent's skin, while preventing them from doing the same to you. You can't really start saying "well some things need to be off limits" because once you start putting down limits you defeat the entire purpose as it rapidly turns into a case of "you can't actually intimidate someone with something that's actually intimidating". This was a "money" game so to speak, not a friendly competition.

The way I see it is that if the lady in question felt the need to complain then by definition it should have been a forfeit. Part of the "skill" is being able to cope with the pressure others are putting on you.

That said, this is one of the many reasons why I believe men and women need to be segregated into different leagues, it's not just about whether a girl can go through the physical motions in a sport (electronic or physical) the same way as a guy, but whether they are psychologically able to handle the other aspects of competition. At the end of the day the differences between men and women are such that even in an arena where the differences don't matter, the fact is it's much easier for a guy to intimidate a girl and get inside her head and knock her out of a game than it is for the opposite to happen. To put it bluntly some dude who is physically capable of doing it says he's going to rape a girl and acts like he means it, that's going to scare her and knock her off her game. She does that to him he's going to laugh it off. When it comes to two dudes that's usually not going to work either.

Once you start limiting this kind of thing, you demean everything, because part of what makes a competitor is to actually be iron inside just as you are outside (so to speak). There is a reason why before competitions you have a lot of athletes and stuff acting like psychopaths, especially before fights, half of any competition is mental. It should also be noted these even comes into play with things like poker for money, especially with strangers, table conversation and such is used to try and get reactions out of people to break their "face". Part of having a good poker face is not so much just being able to be a blank, but to be able to maintain that if some guy mentions he'd like to rape your girlfriend when she's right next to you or whatever else. It's not always that overt though, there can be an art to getting a rise out of people, especially since threats won't always do it, but as we can see here, girls can be comparatively easy.

The classy thing to do here for a girl would be after being threatened with rape would be to say something back like "you aren't going to be raping anyone after I cut your nuts off" or whatever.... or just ignore it. That's how
this game is played. I personally suspect not many girls can do this though which is why you don't see more of them in high end competition, and with certain things it comes down to instinct coming from relative physical vulnerability.

See, like with boxing or whatever, half the battle is getting the tools, the other half is getting into the other guy's head while not letting him into yours. This is why a lot of people talk about how great fighters like Ali not only had great physical gifts, but were also capable of getting into the head of their opponent. The most extreme example perhaps being how he beat Foreman with the "Rope A Dope" by playing off his arrogance when he probably couldn't have beaten Foreman in a straight match purely based off of skill and athleticism. He had to convince the guy to actually let the ring be modified (the ropes were loosened if I remember, and both fighters knew it). Mike Tyson and his whole "I'm gonna eat your children" thing was a failed attempt at something similar, acting even more off his rocker than he actually was.

Basically if all I have to do is threaten rape and you turn into a quivering pile of jello that goes running for the authorities, then obviously I'm better than you are when it comes to this kind of thing. Sure you might have the skills in a purely academic sense, but the skills without the strength of will and confidence behind them are only half of what this kind of thing is supposed to take. Sports of all sorts wouldn't be half as interesting if it was only about playing the games, the personalities involved are a big factor for a reason, and there is a reason why some truly terrible human beings become so successful. Look at say what Michael Vicks did to those dogs, the man is a total sociopath, and I'll be honest in saying that particular trait probably mentally influences his athletic success because people know he's a piece of work and are scared of him. He still plays despite being an awful human being, because that's part of the game.... it's what people mean when they talk about how they "love to hate" someone.

Don't get me wrong this guy is a definite heel for threatening a girl like that, but is far from the first one, and half the fun of guys like that is waiting until they eventually get theirs.

Not popular sentiments here though I'm sure.
 

Artaneius

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Therumancer said:
As a long time competitive gamer (competed in tournaments since 97), I completely agree with you. But I wouldn't waste your breath trying to get non-competitive gamers to understand. It's impossible to understand unless you actually do something competitively that isn't super strict with PR crap. Hell, my post got a crap load of replies telling the truth about it's all about essentially paying your dues and dealing with it like everyone else had too.

And really does it matter that they understand? None of these people whining about competitive gaming ethics first and foremost most likely never been to a tournament and if they did been to one I very doubt they were a competitor. It's easy to judge and throw your two cents around when your just a spectator. When your rent or bills aren't on the line when you dedicated thousands upon thousands of hours to get good enough to try to make a living playing games. So damn easy to whine and ***** for equality when you have the luxury of sitting on your ass and watch.

None of these people who are disgusted about the "rape" comment don't realize that in a dog eat dog environment anything goes. All that matters is making the opponent play worse and increasing your chances to win. Rent and bills is on the line and that's more important than making sure your stupid pathetic equality and "rights" are upheld in a gaming tournament. Too many casuals seem to forget their place. When you actually put the work and time into games you "claim" to enjoy, maybe you can have a valid opinion on how competitive tournaments should be ran.
 

ThreeName

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Glaice said:
He should have said "Gonna beat down a girl in a game of Starcraft 2!", not this off-color rape comment.
Are you trying to make light of domestic abuse? How dare you!

(Here I am highlighting that saying anything about acting negatively towards women can be construed as an insensitive/offensive comment)

OT: I think for me it's the "rape a girl" that's the problem. Honestly, it's kind of creepy that he specified the gender. So I don't have a huge objection to him being reprimanded because it's fucking weird and off-colour.
 

FalloutJack

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Nov 20, 2008
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insaninater said:
Very mature. Calling someone names and then reporting them when they throw it back at you. And apparently your words are just words but mine are something else? Very interesting theory. See here i was thinking we were both typing words into boxes at the bottom of a website. I'm pretty sure that's what i'm doing. I don't know what you're doing that's supposedly so fundamentally different. But i doubt that somehow i'm the one in the wrong here. You're the one who started throwing around insults.
Huh? I didn't call you anything. I think you missed the point. You see, I was just spitballing random words and you very clearly did a thing with intent, thus exposing the fallacy in your statement when you basically made the same mistake that the banned competitor did. You did this thing, and you did it because you don't like your argument being countered. Now that you are in the same position as the SC2 player, you can see why he was called out.
 

Elijah Newton

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Therumancer said:
The classy thing to do here for a girl would be after being threatened with rape would be to say something back like "you aren't going to be raping anyone after I cut your nuts off"
Classy?

*blink blink* I'm going to have to hand the mic to Indigo Montoya on this one:

"That word, I do not think it means what you think it means."
 

Falling_v1legacy

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Nov 3, 2009
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@Theuromancer
The classy thing to do here for a girl would be after being threatened with rape would be to say something back like "you aren't going to be raping anyone after I cut your nuts off
Ugh. Well I hope you don't play Starcraft competitively. We've gotten along just fine without that having to resort to metaphorical rape and counter-rape banter. Boxer is the ultimate classy example of a competitive player who could get into the heads of his opponents.
Bro-shooters and fighting games can keep their rape banter to themselves. Different competitive communities have different cultures. We all don't need to conform to capital 'G' Gaming Culture.
 

JimB

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Apr 1, 2012
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Johnisback said:
See, this is an argument I am on board with. It's pragmatic, empathetic and is based in fact.
At the risk of sounding like I'm taking credit for an idea that isn't mine, thank you.

Johnisback said:
Does this mean that if your audience is small and you can be sure there are no rape victims in it, that usage of the word "rape" in such a context would be okay?
I'm uncomfortable with this line of questioning because I feel like the intent is to codify and legislate an inherently subjective response. As such, let me just say that though I am not black and the word "******" can never hurt me the way it can hurt a black person, I don't think anyone would ever suggest that if the audience is small and there are no black people in it, it would be okay to toss the word around. I certainly wouldn't be okay with it, the lightness of my melanin notwithstanding, and that leads me to the only answer I can conjure for your question: It depends on your audience and their personal tastes.

Johnisback said:
Does this mean that if rape weren't so common, or was treated differently by society that usage of the word in this context would be okay?
If rape was treated more respectfully, then I think this disrespectful context would be even less okay.

Johnisback said:
Does putting the word "rape" on a pedestal contribute to the stigma of rape itself?
That's an excellent question, and one I'm not qualified to answer. I know there's definitely a school of thought which believes so, though I doubt they would classify comparing winning a video game to raping a woman as the kind of discussion that would cause victims to feel more secure and supported or that would spread awareness to prevent rape. I do personally think the shame needs to be lessened, and open, honest conversations seem like the best way to accomplish that, but Tweeting "I'm about to rape some girl" while playing a tournament probably ain't the conversation I'm talking about.

Johnisback said:
For the record I don't use the word "rape" outside of a literal context because the idea of flippantly causing someone emotional distress makes my skin crawl, but I do find it difficult to take a definitive stance on this subject.
Sure. It's all contextual. For instance, I have laughed at rape jokes in my life; I think the NAMBLA episode of South Park is hilarious. I don't know if it's a responsible joke to tell, but leaving questions of responsible behavior aside, it just tickles my funnybone when that middle-aged pervert strokes Butters's arm and coos about skin as soft as fresh linen.