Steam, banning players for being generous?

[Freemon]

this all sounds like crap since I've done this before.

And before doing it i actually contacted Steam support to know if there would be an issue in purchasing games to send to US friends and vice versa. Steam support told me there is no problem in that whatsoever. I've done it countless times and so have friends in the US done it for me and more people in the EU.

I got around 80 games on steam. around 20 were gifts from the same guy in the US and he still has his account.

This story doesn't look very real.

 

[Blue_vision]

You reeeeally need to work on your analogies. That was is wrong because he has to buy them from the shop he's selling them from first.

A proper analogy is he goes inside, buys the games, then walks out the front to sell them cheaper.

And we don't know what games he has bought. What if he bought TF2, New Vegas and Portal? There's no way of getting around Steam then.

But the guy wouldn't be profiting off of it while losing the store money.

And even if he bought TF2, NV, or Portal, then it's a similar realm to all the people that pirate CoD games because they "disagree with Activision's business practices."

 

[Antari]

Valve are dicks and their allowing of publishers to set bullshit prices for what is FUCKING DATA is part of the reason they are such dicks. There is absolutely no reason that digital downloads should have such a ridiculous variation in pricing based on what region you live in, and yet there is. Case in point:

Spoiler: Australian price of New Vegas

With that out of the road, this guy was engaging in something that is a little more than shady. Allowing people to accept money to buy a game from a different location will set up a gigantic mess later on with people adding an extra 10% onto the price so that they make some money from it, too. Which brings it back to the main point - Valve are dicks for having such radically different prices across different regions.

Valve protected itself from loosing import tax revenues it is required by law to collect. In a case of a gift, yes they can overlook that. But when your doing it for 20 people with 20 games, thats starts to add up quickly. At that point Valve is responsible to the government for those taxes as they can no longer be considered gifts in such volume and frequency. And weather that data comes across the border on foot or through a wire, it still crossed a border.

 

[Blue_vision]

So if they're simply trying to cheat Valve's system, for whatever reason Valve's doing it, they don't have much of a moral ground to go on.

I imported brutal legend from the UK for ~20EUR instead of buying the 50EUR retail version with the crappy dubbing as a "bonus".
Do I have no "moral ground" too?

Generally, yeah.

Well maybe half the height of a proper bailey, because I'd assume that you're not ripping the money off of one specific company that's imposing higher prices, but some system that would cause the continent to have higher prices than the UK (I'm assuming the continent here.) If there aren't any alternatives to get out of the sink, then it's justifiable to try to dig yourself out. Unless, of course, there's a good reason behind it, i.e. it costs more to distribute to a certain region, then you are being a dick.

 

[Steppin Razor]

Valve protected itself from loosing import tax revenues it is required by law to collect. In a case of a gift, yes they can overlook that. But when your doing it for 20 people with 20 games, thats starts to add up quickly. At that point Valve is responsible to the government for those taxes as they can no longer be considered gifts in such volume and frequency. And weather that data comes across the border on foot or through a wire, it still crossed a border.

Yes, I know. I'm saying that what the guy was doing was dodgy and needed to be stopped as it creates a bad situation for Valve, but on the other hand, IT IS VALVE'S FAULT THAT PEOPLE WILL RESORT TO THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

[Antari]

Valve protected itself from loosing import tax revenues it is required by law to collect. In a case of a gift, yes they can overlook that. But when your doing it for 20 people with 20 games, thats starts to add up quickly. At that point Valve is responsible to the government for those taxes as they can no longer be considered gifts in such volume and frequency. And weather that data comes across the border on foot or through a wire, it still crossed a border.

Yes, I know. I'm saying that what the guy was doing was dodgy and needed to be stopped as it creates a bad situation for Valve, but on the other hand, IT IS VALVE'S FAULT THAT PEOPLE WILL RESORT TO THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Well realistically you can laugh at Valve's Lawyers. They should have been smart enough to put a limit and time on gifts to keep them out of this sort of trouble. So yes Valve is somewhat at fault here ...

 

[Blue_vision]

Okay, look. The store isn't losing money. Based on what's been said, the prices are higher in Europe because of tax. If the game isn't sold in Europe, Valve doesn't pay tax, and thus makes exactly the same amount of money regardless. If they're not paying tax, they are artificially increasing prices on digital goods, the product with the highest availability possible.

They are being cheating because they are screwing people based on geographic location. That is, in no uncertain terms, a despicable business practice.

There isn't any piracy, what are you taling about? You're saying they can go and buy them somewhere else and not use Steam, this is incorrect, because Steam is needed to play these games. Why are you even talking about piracy and Activision?

Okay, so if prices are higher because of tax, you're cheating your country out of money. A bit more excusable because I'd assume that it's in affect all retailers, but still kind of stupid (i.e. taxes are what pave roads and make sure criminals aren't running amok.)

And if you're saying that Valve are dicks because the games have higher prices due to taxes, that just doesn't make any sense at all. You're saying that Valve should sell games for less in some regions because taxes are higher, in the process taking a price cut that it may not be able to afford? What happens if taxes go so high that they'd end up losing money each sale if they were to cut prices to be even with tax?

EDIT: I'm saying it's similar to piracy "I don't like the way this company does its business, but I'll still consume their product." In this case, they're still consuming the product but buying it at a lower price (assuming that it's Valve to blame for the higher price at all and not actually taxes.) That just puts you in the exact same despicable moral standing as the company did, robbing them because you feel that they robbed you, or thinking that you feel you have a right to steal something that others worked hard to do, just because you don't like them.

 

[FarleShadow]

But the guy wouldn't be profiting off of it while losing the store money.

And even if he bought TF2, NV, or Portal, then it's a similar realm to all the people that pirate CoD games because they "disagree with Activision's business practices."

Okay, look. The store isn't losing money. Based on what's been said, the prices are higher in Europe because of tax. If the game isn't sold in Europe, Valve doesn't pay tax, and thus makes exactly the same amount of money regardless. If they're not paying tax, they are artificially increasing prices on digital goods, the product with the highest availability possible.

They are being cheating because they are screwing people based on geographic location. That is, in no uncertain terms, a despicable business practice.

You are looking at this backward and stupidly.

Lets pretend you're the tax people in Europe. You want your tax money, the second a company like valve allows people to bypass paying tax but still recieve the product (Or game, whatever), they will go down to Valve and rape them a new bumhole.

Esp. in the Uk, you can commit a murder and be out 5 years later, but screw with the tax people? They'll throw you in for 20 years AND YOU WILL SERVE 20 YEARS and have an XL bumhole.

 

[Antari]

But the guy wouldn't be profiting off of it while losing the store money.

And even if he bought TF2, NV, or Portal, then it's a similar realm to all the people that pirate CoD games because they "disagree with Activision's business practices."

Okay, look. The store isn't losing money. Based on what's been said, the prices are higher in Europe because of tax. If the game isn't sold in Europe, Valve doesn't pay tax, and thus makes exactly the same amount of money regardless. If they're not paying tax, they are artificially increasing prices on digital goods, the product with the highest availability possible.

They are being cheating because they are screwing people based on geographic location. That is, in no uncertain terms, a despicable business practice.

You are looking at this backward and stupidly.

Lets pretend you're the tax people in Europe. You want your tax money, the second a company like valve allows people to bypass paying tax but still recieve the product (Or game, whatever), they will go down to Valve and rape them a new bumhole.

Esp. in the Uk, you can commit a murder and be out 5 years later, but screw with the tax people? They'll throw you in for 20 years AND YOU WILL SERVE 20 YEARS and have an XL bumhole.

Yep thats pretty much right on the money! And Valve would rather have a single angry customer, than a single angry government to deal with.

 

[Ickorus]

I just read what was actually said by the Customer Services rep and it seems like a pretty fair argument they have.

That said I think the punishment was way too harsh and the guy should have been given a warning first instead of being outright banned.

 

[Tharwen]

Heh...

I didn't know they raised the prices for us lot over here. Oh well, the deals are still incredibly good.

The contract they have with the Publisher specifies the price at which games will be sold in certain countries. If they aren't selling those games to those countries at those prices, they're breaking the contract.

 

[Alphakirby]

It seems Valve isn't the paragon of virtue everyone though it was.

Wait, WE THOUGHT THEY WERE PARAGONS OF VIRTUE!? Anyone who charges $50 shipping included is NOT a paragon of virtue, to think I could've bought a 9 Hours 9 Persons 9 Doors watch with it for less...Makes me die a little inside.

 

[FarleShadow]

Boy that was mature. Let's get something quite straight, alright? The game is NOT BEING SOLD IN EUROPE. Therefore, the tax cannot apply. If the EU tax dept. got their panties in such a twist over this shit, they'd just shut down the fucking postal service. Circumvention it may be by a stretch, but it is in no way illegal, nor punishable.

Oops. I'm sorry, I guess when I read 'Non-American' and 'European' I deduced that this meant THEY WERE IN EUROPE, A NON-AMERICAN PLACE.

And not being sold? Yea, you are wrong. See in reality, when you give someone 'money' for a 'product or service', this is typically an exchange. Or a transaction. Of which, most governments love to levy a 'fee' in the form of a tax. The idea that I can give you money and you can give me a game and its not selling is rather laughable.

Furthermore, importing games from abroad is not the same as using steam in that manner, the analogy just doesn't work I'm afraid.

 

[Blue_vision]

Lolwot

Let me bold my quote for you

Would you like to reword your reply?

I'm confused as to what your argument is.

If it's "Valve isn't losing money, because they don't pay the European tax on the American purchase that eventually goes to a European," Valve isn't the point. The point is that you're cheating your own government out of money, which is bad news for you (in the general sense,) and bad news for Valve, as others have pointed out.

If it's just "Valve doesn't have to pay tax because they're American," that's just stupid. It's European retail, it has to pay European tax. If you're buying from America, you don't have to put up with taxes and are circumnavigating your own government's rules (which are actually made for the benefit of you.) Valve isn't artificially raising the price. The only thing you could call them out on is the fact that games are priced higher in Europe, but then it's kind of a dick move to expect Valve to take a hit in its European profits because of laws that exist in Europe.

 

[jpoon]

If your steam account gets banned do you lose access to all the games you bought for yourself?

No. You just lose access to Steam secured servers.

If your steam account gets banned do you lose access to all the games you bought for yourself?

Yes.

Ok, one of you heartless fiends is lying to me.

Uh... Well, without research I'll retract my answer.

When they yanked my account (for a total bullshit reason) I lost access to the whole Orange Box. Thus why I will likely never pay for a steam game again.

 

[Blue_vision]

So I am a dick for wanting english language (cause you can't change that on the 360 like you can on steam. That'd be customer friendly and we can't have that) and for wanting uncensored games (yes, gifting gives you the non-BS version in steam) which also just so happen to be not only superior in quality but also cheaper.
Beautiful.

In that case, it's pretty much totally justified. But congrats for being worked up about something that was not only qualified to not pertain to you as soon as you'd read it, but wasn't even meant to incite anger in the first place.

 

[MurderousToaster]

Well, uh, to be fair, he was sort of ripping Valve off. It's pretty obvious that if you do that you're going to be banned.

 

[Zer_]

You are looking at this backward and stupidly.

Lets pretend you're the tax people in Europe. You want your tax money, the second a company like valve allows people to bypass paying tax but still recieve the product (Or game, whatever), they will go down to Valve and rape them a new bumhole.

Esp. in the Uk, you can commit a murder and be out 5 years later, but screw with the tax people? They'll throw you in for 20 years AND YOU WILL SERVE 20 YEARS and have an XL bumhole.

Boy that was mature. Let's get something quite straight, alright? The game is NOT BEING SOLD IN EUROPE. Therefore, the tax cannot apply. If the EU tax dept. got their panties in such a twist over this shit, they'd just shut down the fucking postal service. Circumvention it may be by a stretch, but it is in no way illegal, nor punishable.

Valve is avoiding potential lawsuits with this. They're fully within their rights to do so. For all we know, the guy was assisting EU customers in evading taxes, which is against the law. It's as simple as that, there's nothing more to add here.

If you don't like the Steam prices, then go into a retail store and purchase the game there.

 

[Bad Cluster]

My old account with about 20 games that I had payed for was banned because of a screw-up at my bank and no one would do anything about it. Steam told me to talk to the bank and the bank told me to talk to steam.

For the record yeah I have no access to my games.
I was incredibly pissed.

Heh, I was more "lucky" I only had about 4 games(I didn't like much) and a 3 month old account. Mine got banned after I changed credit cards and the new one refused to work with Steam when it worked for everything else. I was able to get the account back and confirmed with my bank that everything is ok with my card. Tried it again few days later, it didn't work, after that I got banned for good.
Screw Steam, having a physical copy of the game in a box is always better, nobody is going to take it away because you looked funny once.

I do see the logic in the discussed ban though, its not being generous, its cheating the system. Those were't gifts in a true sense anyway, he got his money back.

 

[Roxor]

My gripe with Valve isn't the prices (those come down to something affordable with time). It's the stupid "this product isn't available in your region" nonsense. This makes no sense when there's only one region to be served. Namely the Internet.