Steam, banning players for being generous?

[Fleischer]

It's really sad to see a company get so butthurt as to ban a person for causing steam to lose out on just a few hundred dollars when they make millions anually.

http://www.gamesbrief.com/2010/05/five-reasons-why-steam-will-destroy-the-pc-games-industry/

The price difference is due to the European VAT. For you Aussie, I can only offer my pity and a shared disdain of your governments game hating ways.

Value must pay VAT for the games it sells to the governments that are owed. If Value doesn't have the money, it either pays for its lack of collecting taxes (which makes no sense for a company), or faces fines, if not civil charges, from the governments for failing to pay taxes (even LESS likley). This is a situation where Value is using the CYA policy.

 

[MassiveGeek]

The dude was selling products that weren't his to other people.

... End of story, it's illegal, congratulations for figuring it out, let's move on.

... At least that's how I got it, you can't sell other people's products if you don't have permission. This guy did not have permission. Because yeah, he was gifting them the products, but he got the cash for it, so, he was selling it, not actually giving it away. Therefore it's illegal. Right? I'm pretty sure it's illegal.

The thing is Steam still got paid, they just got the American price. It's like getting your friend to buy you something because he gets a discount at a store and you don't, then paying him back.

That said, they are dodging VAT effectively by doing that, but that's them, not him.

tbh I reckon he must have been doing it on a massive scale in order to get caught.

Yeah? He still did something that was illegal which was selling their product without their permission, that's the whole illegal part of the thing, it doesn't matter if they got paid for it(of course they did, he bought their product).
Just because they got money, but less money mind you, doesn't mean it makes it less illegal, you know.

Well I'd have thought that as what he owns is the license to that bit of software, he's allowed to do what he wants with that. If I buy a game at a shop I think it's reasonable for me to sell it without asking for permission, so why can't he do it with a Steam game? Basically, I'm saying that paying for something grants you ownership of it and you can do what you want with it (except copy it and then distribute that, cause that's piracy).

It's not about what you think, this is about if it's illegal or not. Morality doesn't really matter in this situation - what he did was(from what I gather) in fact illegal.

There isn't much more to it than that. If it turns out Steam were just pissy about the loophole, then they should admit that and give him his account back or something. But if it was illegal - tough shit.

 

[Something Amyss]

Well I'd have thought that as what he owns is the license to that bit of software, he's allowed to do what he wants with that. If I buy a game at a shop I think it's reasonable for me to sell it without asking for permission, so why can't he do it with a Steam game? Basically, I'm saying that paying for something grants you ownership of it and you can do what you want with it (except copy it and then distribute that, cause that's piracy).

First Sale doesn't extend here. This is one of the hazards of digital distribution, Steam or otherwise.

 

[Bobzer77]

What the fuck are you talking about? Valve was cheating the system in the first place by not adjusting the currency. They were essentially cheating European customers and when an American one decides to help them out Valve bans him.

It seems Valve isn't the paragon of virtue everyone though it was.

If they don't like the way the company works, then why even give money to them? Buy games off amazon or something instead of feeding something you hate while looking like a hypocrite at the same time.

Are you actually supporting a company that purposely cheats their customers?

The difference in prices for the EU games are import taxes.

There's import tax on digital data now? Are you serious?

If its imported and they can tax it .. you can bet they will. But yes .. Digital Downloads are considered a physical item as far as the tax man is concerned.

I actually emailed the consumer rights section of the EU back in the 1?/=/1$ days and surprisingly they actually investigated it. It's not a tax as there isn't a generalized EU tax on imports (seeing as we aren't one big country as lots of US people like to think, which also explains why the UK has cheaper prices too), it's actually just because the publishers asked Valve to charge more in Europe, which is why indie games are still incredibly cheap, including some publishers like Paradox, but EA games are like ?50 (67.69$).

 

[Fleischer]

how did Steam know that when they banned his account? Surely they don't have access to his PayPal account or Bank accounts to check? From their perspective all they see is him gifting games to people which you just said is fine. I'm not saying what he was doing was right I'm just saying that they don't know he's doing anything illegal.

My guess would be that amergift gifted a bunch of people - well beyond the average users levels - of gift accounts, and then Value thought to themselves, we have full access to the Steam ID's of everyone he gifted to. Value could then send e-mails to those people with a stern warning that they were taking place in the crime of tax evasion. Also, Value has access to the e-mails and bank account numbers of all those involved parties. I'm sure Value would send a friendly letter to Paypal to cross check a set of bank account numbers, and to see if there was any payments between these parties.

The government would most likely need search warrants to carry out these steps; however, corporations are less restrained by Constitutions.

 

[Fleischer]

Now, as far as I know a ToS violation isn't actually illegal, but it does mean Valve can do just about whatever they want to him.

In this case, there is no crime involved when you break the contract - Steam's ToS, but when amergift violated the ToS, he did open himself up to an uppercut by Valve.

 

[quantumsoul]

Steam should automatically change the price before asking you to confirm purchase. What if someone just want to buy a gift for foreign friends and relatives and is unaware of the price change.

 

[Fleischer]

]Maybe, but import taxed and customs are always the responsibility of the importers (in this case, buyers). Since Valve simply sold the games to a US citizen, they don't need to deal with European import laws at all. They're just strictly enforcing their own arbitrary rules.

My guess would be that Value is worried about being sued or fined by European governments. They'd rather toss the ban hammer around against people skirting rules than draw the ire of a government's legal force. Like you, I'd be interested if Value releases any press statement regarding this issue. Please let me know if you catch any wind of Value clearing the record.

 

[Fleischer]

Either way its a Robin Hood sort of generosity hes going for.

Not really. He's helping people circumvent tax adjusted prices on luxury items. The mythical Robin Hood was stealing taxes that were driving people into abject poverty.

 

[Woodsey]

I have always found the pricing of steam games in Australia a little suspect, I would love to know how it is calculated, I wonder in the future will they be forced to show how they come up with the now abitrary (seeming) price. Maybe they should show a little list.

Your game costs - X
Your country taxes - Y
Misc - Z
Our cut is - Q

You therefore will pay - P



I dont know if this is a lagitimate part of this thread but please read so you can know wheter to be outraged at the prices of your games. (I also found a site doing this research that placed many other countries worse of than Australia, i feel for you columbia)

The Exampled Game

Call of Duty Black Ops.
according to this site http://www.steamprices.com/uk/app/42700/call-of-duty-black-ops
Costs
(I Did the money conversions with todays currencies.)

(US) 59.99
(UK) 39.99 = [US] 63.9920 (6% markup)
(Europe) 59.99 = [US] 81.2707 (39% markup)
(Australian) 89.99 = [US] 90.1700 (50% markup)

Now as an austrlian Sure i think this is bullshit. Furthermore i know it aint tax that they are marking it up for. We have a rather simple "Goods and Services Tax" of 10%, and it does not apply to importated "Goods and Services" that are under $1000. There has been a recent uproar by the department stores so we all learnt a bit about such things. So these games should not be being taxed more than 10% even if they were to be taxed which they wouldnt be....

What i can tell you is that the hard copies of the game, such as sold here by EB
http://www.ebgames.com.au/search?title=Call+of+Duty%3a+Black+Ops
are going for 98 australian bucks, (110 for XBOX, dont know what console games go for in america so cant compare)

(Australian Hard Copy) 98.00 = [US] 98.1960 (64% Markup!!)
(WOW our currancy is doing awesome atm btw... )

I think steam probably looks at all the other options that you have around you in your current location for buying the game... knocks a couple of bucks of that and sits back and watches the money roll in. I dont blame them, the Australian gaming consumer is violated by the retailer dickwolves everyday and doesnt do a thing about it. People complain about the markup, (50% wouldnt you?) but for us Aussies its actually a reasonable saving compared to the hard copy retailers [8%]. Consider again steam specials and australians are saving alot of money thanks to steam compared to retail prices. If it keeps consumers away from buying hard copies of games which are just creations emissions in transport and plastic cases and being sold to 2nd hand stores who are just dickwolves to the developers I am all for steam.

To the matter of this guy buying in america for eurpeans, i hope it happens more and that more people get banned, the more attention brought to the issue the better, if it forces steam to expaline themselves and these prices, will this issue not be completely solved?

But yea you may have noticed i just wanted to rant about the Aussie Markups...

Publishers set the store prices for regions, Valve don't.

 

[Fleischer]

1st of all the next time to try to do that create a throw away account so whn you get banned it does not matter

Except if Value is smart enough to note your bank account number.

2nd your in America right witch means lawyer up or shut up

I don't see the case you are referring to. Unless there is evidence of Value, PayPal or any involved party breaking a law (invasion of privacy), there isn't any legal matter against them. In the US of A, you are innocent until proven guilty, and this applies to *corporations* as well as human beings.

 

[JohnPaul3rd]

Sounds like another reason to torrent

 

[Merkavar]

too many post to read.

anyway i think the ban is fair from what i have seen. they didnt gift the game to anyone, they sold the game and im pretty sure somewhere in the TOU agreement there would be something about selling the game seeing as how you dont own the game and all that.

 

[Daveman]

Digital ownership isn't the same. Its more like a right to use the data yourself rather than actually owning something. If you break their rules you lose that right (as far as im aware). And trying to bypass their system (in a fairly large way) is likely to annoy them. And probably the developers who release products on their service too. As a business it has needs and it needs to put those interests quite high, otherwise it would cause problems for them.

First Sale doesn't extend here. This is one of the hazards of digital distribution, Steam or otherwise.

Yeah, I figured as much, but I was just pointing out it wasn't as clear cut as it seemed.

My guess would be that amergift gifted a bunch of people - well beyond the average users levels - of gift accounts, and then Value thought to themselves, we have full access to the Steam ID's of everyone he gifted to. Value could then send e-mails to those people with a stern warning that they were taking place in the crime of tax evasion. Also, Value has access to the e-mails and bank account numbers of all those involved parties. I'm sure Value would send a friendly letter to Paypal to cross check a set of bank account numbers, and to see if there was any payments between these parties.

The government would most likely need search warrants to carry out these steps; however, corporations are less restrained by Constitutions.

I'd agree but that seems like a MASSIVE effort for one guy... that is unless he was doing this gifting on a huge scale. tbh I don't see why he didn't just open a new steam account for it if that was the case though, then he wouldn't lose his games. Although they'd probably see through that and close down his other accounts. EDIT: also, I think you mean "Valve".

It's not about what you think, this is about if it's illegal or not. Morality doesn't really matter in this situation - what he did was(from what I gather) in fact illegal.

There isn't much more to it than that. If it turns out Steam were just pissy about the loophole, then they should admit that and give him his account back or something. But if it was illegal - tough shit.

Yeah, exactly, if it is just illegal then indeed "tough shit" but I was merely trying to point out (as I said above) that it wasn't so obvious to the ordinary observer because you can understand why most people would think it's fine.

tbh the equivalent thing is what shitloads of people do in the UK which is go to France for the lower VAT and buy up a load of stuff (cigarettes and booze mostly) and take it back on the ferry in their cars. No idea if that's still worth it given how taxes may have changed but there was a hilarious Only Fools and Horses episode on it.

 

[Acidwell]

Here we go stuff people left out:

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=5406-WFZC-5519
Quote from above:

Why would a Steam account be disabled?

Check the contact e-mail address for your Steam account to see if Steam Support has contacted you regarding the reason your account was disabled - accounts may be temporarily disabled pending verification of purchase information or account ownership.
Steam Support does not automatically contact the owners of disabled accounts in most circumstances.
There is a Zero-Tolerance policy for any violations of the Steam Subscriber Agreement and Online Code of Conduct. All accounts in a user's possession for any of the following activities will be disabled:

Redeeming Fraudulent Gifts

Never accept a gift from an unknown user. Any accounts tied to a redeemed gift from a fraudulent source may be disabled.

Also if there is a tax its not vat since that would be illegal as the max vat in the eu is 25% with discretion to countries and the vat on steam games would amount to 26% across all countries

 

[Chairman Miaow]

I don't see why people are making such a big deal about the games costing more in the UK on steam, the games cost more on everything in the UK. Steam is no more evil than any other company.

 

[Zannah]

I'm astonished people actually side with steam here, saying "If they want to rip off people that isn't me, sure let them". Way to go people, way to go.
But hey, a gamer social enough to protect fellow gamers from being ripped off is clearly a first rate criminal, and Valve should totally be allowed to light his house on fire.

 

[Seydaman]

If your steam account gets banned do you lose access to all the games you bought for yourself?

No. You just lose access to Steam secured servers.

If your steam account gets banned do you lose access to all the games you bought for yourself?

Yes.

Ok, one of you heartless fiends is lying to me.

Was it an all steam ban or a VAC ban?
A VAC ban is just from using VAC secured servers
The other one is from all steam

 

[Trolldor]

I'm astonished people actually side with steam here, saying "If they want to rip off people that isn't me, sure let them". Way to go people, way to go.
But hey, a gamer social enough to protect fellow gamers from being ripped off is clearly a first rate criminal, and Valve should totally be allowed to light his house on fire.

Yes, they should, if their actions break laws and put steam at a legal risk.

 

[Zannah]

I'm astonished people actually side with steam here, saying "If they want to rip off people that isn't me, sure let them". Way to go people, way to go.
But hey, a gamer social enough to protect fellow gamers from being ripped off is clearly a first rate criminal, and Valve should totally be allowed to light his house on fire.

Yes, they should, if their actions break laws and put steam at a legal risk.

And what legal risk is that? He was gifted some money on paypal, he gifted people some games, neither of which is illegal, no sale is taking place, no contracts are signed. The only thing in danger here, is the policy of ripping people off because money is shiny.