Stormcloaks are too mainstream.

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Gindaff

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I read in a book that the Thalmor want to keep Ulfric alive, to keep civil war and to continue the Empire's struggle to defeat the Stormcloaks making Skyrim weaker. But, they don't want the Stormcloaks to overcome the Empire as a reunited, independent Skyrim could challenge them. So the Thalmor are actually worried about the Stormcloaks taking rule of Skyrim.

However the point made that they're racist nationalists made me regret joining them as a dark elf, I didn't really look into their ideologies.
 

The Lugz

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Irridium said:
The Lugz said:
Irridium said:
The Lugz said:
so,
i actually freed the forsworn king from that mine on my lizard paladin.. i'm not quite sure what repercussions that will have yet!
( they already took one city ) it's going to cause big aaa problems isn't it..

yah, my whole post is a spoiler! lol
Same here, but for me...

I actually killed Madanoch and most of the others right when I broke out. I saw the situation as a "break out on your own, going through caves full of unknown dangers" or "do that with a group of meatshields". So I went with the second option, which was a good choice considering the dwenmer robots that you run encounter.

So right when I got out and got my items back, I killed most of them including Madanoch. And... none of them attacked me back. Even when I found the camp the few survivors went to, they didn't seem to mind me there.

So yeah, there's that. Not sure if I broke the game since no city has been taken, or anything different happened. What was supposed to happen after they broke out? Do they take Markath? Because they didn't in my game.
err.. so yah...
they do indeed, mass slaughtering ensues they just tear the town apart and sack it but whatever you do don't attack the guards they're fighting.. oh word that gets messy.
they gave me some good mage items, but i'm too far warrior / paladin build to change now.
.. /whistles..

basically pick your allies well i guess is all i can say!
Did they do it right after they broke out, or after a set amount of time?

Because if it's supposed to happen right after, then yeah I think I might have broken it...
immediately, yes you get given a ton of caster gear then they go on a rampage and kill everything in sight and claim the city
( i tried going back, but they were still fighting.. so i may need to advance the plot for something to happen )
 

SnakeoilSage

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The whole point of the Imperial/Stormcloak plot is the "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. Both sides feel their view is the right one, and both sides are equally dickish in certain aspects.

Evil Top Hat said:
1) The White-Gold concordat will surely be broken soon, and it will not be long before war with the Ald'meri Dominion resurfaces. If the Stormcloaks take hold of Skyrim, how can they even hope to defend themselves? The Ald'meri Dominion are an incredibly powerful force, how is a team of rag tag rebels ever going to defend Skyrim, especially after having just emerged from such a costly war?
The Stormcloaks are't rag-tag. They fight like Nords: a mobile army that controls the open country-side. Such armies were common centuries ago in Norse and Scottish lands. Skyrim also has a long history of fighting elves, both in defense and offense. Consider if the Stormcloak invade Aldmeri lands? They will swiftly find allies with the Bosmer and Redguard, who have suffered at the Aldmeri's hands. The Empire will likely pounce on this opportunity to push into Valenwood, and the Aldmeri will suddenly be fighting a three-front war that will tear it apart.

2) Ulfric Stormcloak cannot run Skyrim. Have you seen Windhelm? The place is a total mess. The entire place is more like a stony slum than a city. The streets are filth ridden and the people are starving. Riften is even worse, the guard know exactly where the thieves guild are hiding, but apparently Ulfric doesn't want to waste reinforcements. He can't even manage his section of Skyrim well enough to eradicate a group of pick pockets. How will he ever run an entire continent of Tamriel?
Ulfric seems more than capable of running a nation from my perspective. Windhelm looks like a "stony slum" becaues it's an ancient city - one of mankind's oldest - and is going to look weathered no matter how well it's maintained. I dunno where these starving people you mention are, maybe the Dunmer? Riften is pretty much controlled by Maven Black-Briar and the Thieves Guild, I'm guessing Ulfric has made a political alliance with her, and Maven in turn manipulates the Jarl into favoring Ulfric. Also consider that the Thieves Guild is in major decline in Riften at the start of the game, and I would say that "eradicating a group of pick pockts" doesn't measure highly on a future king's resume when he's got a country to overthrow.

3) Ulfric is a total manchild, and only cares about power. Main story spoilers coming up.
I'm not sure where you got this from. I've played through the Stormcloak plotline and I've seen him be honest, passionate, humble, honourable, cunning, compassionate, and determined. Maybe he does crave power but he honestly believes he is doing the right thing for his country and believes in his people as much as himself.

4) Last, but not least, the Stormcloaks are racist nationalists, that think the fact that they are the "correct" race means that they should be allowed Skyrim, and that other races should not have authority or power, because they aren't the right race. Homeland or no homeland, these guys are basically the Skyrim equivalent of the BNP.
This is debatable. Yes, the Stormcloaks are all Nords (unless the Dragonborn joins them and is another race), but they don't seem to have a real issue with anyone but the Empire and the Talmor. Keep in mind that the Nords have always been an aggressive people, who have invaded and conquered lands in Cyrodill and Morrowind in the past. But unlike say, the Talmor, they haven't committed the acts of genocide or ethnic cleansing typical of a racially-motivated invading force.

A Nord is a Nord, and they take a fierce pride in their harsh homeland and the strength it gives them. The same is true for every race in The Elder Scrolls - each takes pride it themselves. If you went to Hammerfell and got involved with the Redguard rebels fighting the Aldmeri, you'd likely see similar pride, and we saw it in the Dunmer in Morrowind. And in that game the Dunmer were resisting Imperial encroachment on their homeland and the drastic transformation of their religion. Seeing a pattern?

Ultimately I don't believe Skyrim intends to stand alone under Ulfric. He's too clever to do something like that - he will make alliances. With Valenwood, with Hammerfell, and maybe even with the Empire. He'll do it because "Skyrim/Empire alliance" will lend strength to Skyrim's solidarity - it will make them look like a sovereign power, not just an Imperial Province.

And with those alliances the Skyrim will make their invasion of the Summerset Isles - a goal hinted at quite often by Ulfric's general Stone-Fist - all the more potent.
 
Apr 28, 2008
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The Lugz said:
Irridium said:
The Lugz said:
Irridium said:
The Lugz said:
so,
i actually freed the forsworn king from that mine on my lizard paladin.. i'm not quite sure what repercussions that will have yet!
( they already took one city ) it's going to cause big aaa problems isn't it..

yah, my whole post is a spoiler! lol
Same here, but for me...

I actually killed Madanoch and most of the others right when I broke out. I saw the situation as a "break out on your own, going through caves full of unknown dangers" or "do that with a group of meatshields". So I went with the second option, which was a good choice considering the dwenmer robots that you run encounter.

So right when I got out and got my items back, I killed most of them including Madanoch. And... none of them attacked me back. Even when I found the camp the few survivors went to, they didn't seem to mind me there.

So yeah, there's that. Not sure if I broke the game since no city has been taken, or anything different happened. What was supposed to happen after they broke out? Do they take Markath? Because they didn't in my game.
err.. so yah...
they do indeed, mass slaughtering ensues they just tear the town apart and sack it but whatever you do don't attack the guards they're fighting.. oh word that gets messy.
they gave me some good mage items, but i'm too far warrior / paladin build to change now.
.. /whistles..

basically pick your allies well i guess is all i can say!
Did they do it right after they broke out, or after a set amount of time?

Because if it's supposed to happen right after, then yeah I think I might have broken it...
immediately, yes you get given a ton of caster gear then they go on a rampage and kill everything in sight and claim the city
( i tried going back, but they were still fighting.. so i may need to advance the plot for something to happen )
Huh... I really hope I didn't inadvertently break some future quest chain...
 

TheOddOneOut

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Sep 17, 2011
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Its most likely from Bethesda pushing the stormcloaks as the protagonists. The opening scene has you "wrongfully" sentenced to death by Imperial soldiers and you kill like ten Imperials before you even leave Helgen. After that you are immediately sent on a quest to join the Stormcloaks.

I rolled a dunmer so a group of Aryan supermen sitting on the throne did not sit well with me. And as far as I can tell, other than the whole Talos worship thing, the only grievance the Stormcloaks seem to have with the Imperials is "their damn lists..."
 

Kyber

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hammerfell defended itself against the aldmeri dominion (if i remember the lore right) so why couldnt skyrim? truly Nords are as capable warriors as the Redguards + the homefield advantage is on both sides, the alik'r desert in hammerfell and the rocky mountains of skyrim


i would say though that a united empire is much more capable of wiping those god damn Thalmor of the face of Tamriel then any province alone could
 

Navvan

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Evil Top Hat said:
It seems from the many polls that have been taken on the subject, that most Skyrim players seem to be going with the Stormcloaks, and I can't figure out why. In the following post, I will make four points, after reading, feel free to respond and argue with my points.

1) The White-Gold concordat will surely be broken soon, and it will not be long before war with the Ald'meri Dominion resurfaces. If the Stormcloaks take hold of Skyrim, how can they even hope to defend themselves? The Ald'meri Dominion are an incredibly powerful force, how is a team of rag tag rebels ever going to defend Skyrim, especially after having just emerged from such a costly war?

2) Ulfric Stormcloak cannot run Skyrim. Have you seen Windhelm? The place is a total mess. The entire place is more like a stony slum than a city. The streets are filth ridden and the people are starving. Riften is even worse, the guard know exactly where the thieves guild are hiding, but apparently Ulfric doesn't want to waste reinforcements. He can't even manage his section of Skyrim well enough to eradicate a group of pick pockets. How will he ever run an entire continent of Tamriel?

3) Ulfric is a total manchild, and only cares about power. Main story spoilers coming up.
During the peace treaty with the Imperials, he acted like a child. he kicked up a fuss because he didn't want to be in the same room as a Thalmore, and then proceeded to demand city after city to be surrendered to the Stormcloaks, whilst ranting away at the Imperials with his bile about "true sons of Skyrim". Even in the face of the total destruction of Skyrim, he continued to act like a child, and to furhter his own power.

4) Last, but not least, the Stormcloaks are racist nationalists, that think the fact that they are the "correct" race means that they should be allowed Skyrim, and that other races should not have authority or power, because they aren't the right race. Homeland or no homeland, these guys are basically the Skyrim equivalent of the BNP.
A counter to point 1.

From my understanding Hammerfell succeeded from the Empire after the treaty and fought back the Thalmor successfully forcing them to retreat from Hammerfell and form a treaty in their favor. So it isn't without precedence that a territory of the empire can rebel and beat back the Thalmor. Of course the circumstances were a bit different but that is not the point.

A counter to point 2.

Riften was a mess before the rebellion from my understanding (the Thiefs guild having been established there long before Ulfric's rebellion and such), and the state of Windhelm can be attributed to the war itself taking a toll rather than Ulfrics leadership.

Points 3 and 4 are true enough.
 

Evil Top Hat

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SnakeoilSage said:
Thank you for that post, it was one of the best I've seen in this thread. You made good points, and while I stick by my views that Ulfric himself is a total idiot
seriously, that peace treaty meeting was just painful to watch because of Ulfric
but I can see now that a Stormcloak ruled Skyrim wouldn't be a totally hopeless situation. I just wonder whether or not a united Empire would stand more chance than united provinces, provided that united provinces would ever actually happen.
 

kaizen2468

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Seeing as I killed the emperor prior to choosing a side, I thought it would be pretty odd to side with the imperials.
 

carpathic

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Hey, if Ulfric wants to help me continue my goal of killing all of the elves in existence, then I will be on his side :)

Ald'meri Dominion be damned, my hero will eventually succeed in stomping out those arrogant elves!

Or not I suspect. But I can think about it at least.
 

ImperialSunlight

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Blargh McBlargh said:
The Empire is weak, a true Nord would rather die than give up their beliefs.

Aldmeri Dominion can go eat a bag of dragon dicks.

I'm kinda annoyed about Whiterun though...
I was only annoyed about Whiterun until I returned there to find that not a single innocent citizen was killed, only the guards. It was a fairly humane invasion. Even the companions are all still alive, for some reason.
 

Hal10k

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TheOddOneOut said:
Its most likely from Bethesda pushing the stormcloaks as the protagonists. The opening scene has you "wrongfully" sentenced to death by Imperial soldiers and you kill like ten Imperials before you even leave Helgen. After that you are immediately sent on a quest to join the Stormcloaks.
Actually, at the beginning of the game, after the dragon attacks, you can run towards either the Stormcloaks or the Imperials. If you head towards the Imperials, the rest of the opening plays out in pretty much the same way, but with the roles reversed. It's a split second decision that some players might not even realize that they're making, so circumstance winds up coloring the players entire perception of the war.
 

Prosis

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It's a very neat mechanic, to have the player choose their faction in such a tense moment.

I think most people go with the Stormcloaks because the Imperials were trying to execute you. I can't fathom why someone would run torwards the guys who had your head down and the axe raised, regardless of how "pro-Imperial" you are.

Of course, those are in character reasons, more of a roleplay thing. I haven't actually played the game, so I can't say which faction is more reasonable in the long run.
 

TheOddOneOut

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Prosis said:
I think most people go with the Stormcloaks because the Imperials were trying to execute you. I can't fathom why someone would run torwards the guys who had your head down and the axe raised, regardless of how "pro-Imperial" you are.
This actually is a good explanation for why I overlooked the imperials. In that scenario I assumed the Stormcloaks would be the ones to escape with. Never crossed my mind the imperials would help a prisoner of questionable moral character escape.

Although I vaguely recall that happening once before... hmmm....
 

bungle

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Nov 20, 2011
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The Empire isn't as strong as in previous games though,. It has drastically shrunk due to the war and various states declaring independence. There isn't a Septim emperor so the Nords have no reason to feel like they owe allegiance anymore, especially since the Empire sold out mankind's greatest hero just to cling to the last areas of land it has. There is a Dunmer in Windhelm that thinks the other races aren't doing enough to win the Nord's respect and the reason for much of the xenophobia (in Windhelm atleast) seems to be down to the Dunmer not fighting the cause. This happens in real life, a group of people migrate from one country to another and refuse to integrate or protect their new home, they are treated with suspicion. The Dunmer are not fighting for the Stormcloaks, if Ulfric really was the racist many believe him to be, he probably would have refused to let them settle, or maybe even kill them all. He is fighting a war and is probably financing it aswell, this leaves very little spare money to upgrade the standard of living. Fable 3 does a good job of pointing out the responsibilities of being in charge, to get things done, sometimes you have to be ruthless.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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Ace of Spades said:
Most people go with the Stormcloaks because the Imperial Legion tries to cut your head off at the beginning of the game. They're supposed to be the bad guys. It might be reasonable that they would assume I'm with the Stormcloaks, but even so, in that situation, I'd do everything in my power to see them burn.
this.

plus i'd rather not be on the empire/thalmor's side, i just don't like them...

plus after doing a raid on one of the fortresses filled to the rim with elven empire doucheblasts, it felt great picking them apart.

plus


STORMCLOAKS

beast name is beast.
 

bauke67

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I was with the empire in the last game already, it'd be boring to do that again.
Besides, I wanted a viking. And the stormcloaks seem more vikingish than the empire.
 

Vegosiux

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People go Stormcloak because that way they can "stick it to the man" without real consequences, mostly, I believe.

As for the argument about the Imperials wanting to cut your head off - how many of the people who use that as justification have joined Dark Brotherhood, that ALSO tries to kill you? My bet is on "plenty", so that's consistency out of the window right there. But if they want to enjoy a "Raaaah, kill all non-Nords" game, who am I to judge? It IS a game after all.