Stormcloaks are too mainstream.

[The Harkinator]

The argument that Talos Worship will be saved by siding with the Stormcloaks is completely and utterly invalid considering the simple fact that once the empire loses the fight in Skyrim and the Stormcloaks take over, the Thalmor will sweep in and do what the empire could not, and that in efficient and bloody fashion. If the might of the Empire could not defeat the Aldmeri Dominion, how does Ulfric expect to?

Ulfric has a huge lack of foresight and I believe everything he does is a grab for more power. Only the Empire can assure survival against the Dominion for at least a few more years to come. Perhaps it would also be time to have someone born with the Dragon's Blood to bear the Amulet of Kings once again, since it can only be worn by a Dragonborn emperor (according to Oblivion) and to relight the dragonfires as well, (you know, before Dagon decides he wants another crack at Tamriel and we get another Oblivion crisis).

Dagon can't return to Tamriel. Emperor Martin destroyed the Amulet of Kings and killed Dagons physical form, Dagon still survives in Oblivion but cannot return as he cannot manifest himself physically. He can speak and command through his shrines but is unable to physically get to Tamriel. The dragonfires where there to hold back Dagon and stop the daedra but the events at the end of Oblivion severed the link between Tamriel and Oblivion meaning no more gates to Oblivion can be opened.

But Ulfric still has a hugely short sighted plan, something he fails to factor in is that many of the Nords in Skyrim don't want to be independent and believe that the Empire is a good thing. Ulfrics ethos is 'You are with me or against Skyrim' as if he decides what everyone in Skyrim wants.

I wasn't aware that the amulet was physically destroyed and nor that Dagon's Physical form was too. I assumed that Daedra could die in the physical realm but reincarnate themselves through other means again at a later time (like centuries later kinda thing). Don't ask where I got this notion from since I don't know, I read a lot of fantasy novels and relish in the lore of many fantasy games so it could be from any of that. Where is this info from, I'd like to read it? I don't know nearly as much as I would like about Daedra.

I think that the amulet may not have been destroyed. I assumed that when mixing with Martins blood and becoming an avatar of Akatosh because nobody mentioned it anymore and it couldn't be found, I may have remembered it wrong but the amulet may actually have been imprisoned in the heart of the Martin/Akatosh statue.

And yes, you're right, Daedra can die in the physical realm. Dagon did but he can't leave the plane he rules as the link is severed. He appears as a huge demon in the mortal realm but that body is dead now. His spirit lives on in Oblivion. Check the Elder Scrolls Wiki to read up on a variety of subjects, be careful to avoid more spoilers though.

 

[aristos_achaion]

As I see it, the Stormcloaks more like the Confederates than the Nazis. Were the Confederates legally and philosophically correct in seceding? It's certainly debatable, but that doesn't make them any less racist or seceding any less of a bad idea. There's a reason that Great Britain backed the Confederates in the Civil War -- they wanted the US to fragment into smaller, more easily controllable countries. Likewise, the Thalmor see the Stormcloaks as a force to fragment the Empire, so they can easily control (if not conquer) the resultant pieces. Why don't the Thalmor want a full Stormcloak victory, in that case? Because the Nords, unlike the Confederates, actually are a viable military force. They're not much of an economic force, so the Dominion's best hope is to break Skyrim's army through turmoil and economic hardship -- if the Stormcloaks achieved a quick victory, they might notice that the Dominion is reeling from their costly war with the Empire and strike before their economic shortcomings crippled their military readiness.

Also, does all this talk of "the Dominion" make anybody else feel like the Thalmor are hiding a regiment of Jem'hadar somewhere?

 

[Chronowaster]

I just want to put out there that whichever side you join has you on their party. So when the Thalmor do decide to attack, you the dragon-born will be there to stop them, with your super enchanted legendary Daedric armor and, level 3 storm shout that kills everything in a mile radius. Not to mention later you can summon a dragon. I'm just saying the Thalmor don't stand a chance ageist a level 50 Dovahkiin.

 

[Kopikatsu]

snip

But Oblivion Empire is a totally different empire form Skyrim. The Empire gave up the mages guide, Talos, disbanded the Blades, and gave up a huge chunk of Hammerfell. Plus who to say the Thalmor hasn't change how the Empire handles itself? We haven't been there at all. Plus at least they are letting the them live there. If they were truely racist and hate all non-nords. Why even let them live there? Also they are Refugees. Do you expect them to live in a good place? When Windhelm is the oldest city in Skyrim and most likely putting all its money into the war.

Plus Oblivion wasn't the aftermath of a huge war. It was a peaceful time.

A lot has changed? General Tullius's second in command is a Nord. No Imperial soldier has ever brought up my race (Argonian) in my time serving them. The Empire protects citizens regardless of race. And do you remember the first thing that you see upon entering Windhelm? A group of Nords threatening a Dunmer for being a Dunmer. Hooray for racism. It is okay, they are refugees. The Empire seems the same to me. They don't even enforce the Talos ban. Only Thalmor agents do.

Did you listen to the conversation? To me they were more piss off that the Dark elf hasn't chosen a side at all. Now if you were a nord, who live in the slums (Cause I'm pretty sure that guy did, he didn't seem like a higher up) who keep hearing how elves are telling people what to do. Would you make a stupid mistake in believing all elves are bad? I mean hell look how America treated Arabs when the Terrorist attack happen.

Plus not enforce the Talso ban? HELL they enforce everything else. The blades disbandment, the disbandment of the mages guide, giving up a huge chuck of hammerfell and lastly the bad of Talos.

Plus if you talk to the Grey-manes you found out their son was taken away. Now, This is Whiterun, a neutral city. No Thalmor in site, who would have capture and given the son up to the Thalmor?

The Empire had two options. Submit or be erased from the face of the planet.

The Stormcloaks are fighting for a lost cause. Even if they somehow beat the Empire, the Thalmor are just going to go 'Oh, hey, the assholes are in charge now', wipe out all of the Stormcloaks, then claim the providence of Skyrim for their own.

The Stormcloaks need to suck it up and either stop worshiping Talos, or just commit suicide by cop on the Thalmor. There are no other options for them.

Edit: And if they do the suicide by cop thing, they go to Sovengarde, which is basically Nordic heaven. It's not even like death is an unwelcome outcome!

 

[Muphin_Mann]

But...

They give you a bitchin' hat which is the top half of a bear's head. In my eyes all is forgiven.

Sided with imperials. Killed a Stormcloak general and stole his hat.

First time I went Stormcloak because the Imperial Legion wanted to chop my head off. Now I kill both sides whenever I find them because the game is pretty much just letting you decide whether you wanna be a nazi or a fascist nationalist.

And you were like: "Screw that, imma terrorist" and killed both sides just cuz you could! *metal riff*

 

[seraphy]

I sided with the stormcloaks.
because while wondering town to town and along the main roads i happened upon a group of high elves leading a man in rags. this was when i was a low lvl and wanted to see if there was a chance for a new quest, so i spoke to their leader and (s)he started off by talking down to me then begun to question my faith. when i told it i will worship who ever i please the leader attacked me. while there were other people near by not a single one tired to help me. after some fairly intense combat i stood above the bodies of the high elfs. it was that very instance that shaped my decision that i will not join any group who allows that kind of bull to happen. fuck the elves and the empire. fyi my character is an imperial.

It doesn't bother you that Ulfric is Thalmor puppet? Puppet of those very elves you hate?

They have carefully coached Ulfric to rebel. He is essentially doing exactly what Thalmor wants him to.

 

[ge0rge491]

im not even close to thinking about being done with skyrim, having said that seeing how long they take to make these games im getting first in line. Bethesda, take me to elsewhyr. Tropical jungles, vast deserts, and no fucking mountains, sounds great to me

 

[Outcast107]

snip[/i]

Nope Redguard could hold off their own. The empire just gave up to early. They could have won if they just held on. Also I'm sure Skyrim is like Russia in today since. Cold, hard to live in and rough winter.

 

[Kopikatsu]

snip[/i]

Nope Redguard could hold off their own. The empire just gave up to early. They could have won if they just held on. Also I'm sure Skyrim is like Russia in today since. Cold, hard to live in and rough winter.

The Redguards aren't really holding the Thalmor off so much as the Thalmor aren't bothering them right now.

The Battle of the Red Ring pretty much annihilated the Aldmeri and Imperial armies. The only difference is that the Thalmor were ready to throw what was left of their forces at the Empire and the Empire didn't really have any soldiers to put up a defense. So they surrendered.

The Redguard weren't involved in the Battle of the Red Ring, so they still have troops.

Edit: This all happened thirty-ish years prior to Elder Scrolls V. The Thalmor have re-armed since then.

 

[Scott Lumley]

It's all irrelevant for me, I'm an Altmer. FOR THE DOMINION!

 

[Ghengis John]

The guy sitting next to you was arrested for horse theft, he had absolutely nothing to do with the Stormcloaks yet he was executed. It seems that the punishment for all crimes in the Empire is execution.

In the year 1863 you could be executed for being a rebel or for stealing a horse. That doesn't mean the punishment for all crimes in the united states was execution. You have taken a running leap of logic there.

As for myself I am so sick of hearing the imperials say eight divines. It's nine. That said it's not like the empire wanted to give that up. They fought a war over it. If they didn't sign the concordant they would have been trampled and come to the mercy of people who consider them an inferior race. That would not have had a good outcome. I can understand both sides. I haven't picked one yet.

The real problem here is the Thalmore. They can't stand tiber septim being a divine because tiber septim conquered them and he's a human. If only there was some way to get everyone to work together to give them their comeuppance.

 

[AdamG3691]

Ahhh guys, don't say The Elves, its not the Elves or all Elves, its a particular group of dick Elves I hope we can obliterate in some future DLC.

Is it wrong I hate the Altmer? I've never met a nice one.

Faralda (the destruction trainer at the mage college) is pretty nice to you. but other than her and your player character, I cant remember any other altmer that aren't either thalmor or paranoid/insane.

by the way, about the "joining the stormcloaks as a high elf" thing: I tried, there's an amusing bit where you are asked how you feel about elves and you have the choice to say something along the lines of "yeah, we really suck don't we?" (or alternatively "everyone is equal"), I think its one of the few times any of them actually acknowledge that you aren't a nord

 

[Mau95]

My race is Imperial. For the sake of irony, I must join the Stormcloaks! (though you did get me thinking there)

 

[JMeganSnow]

Seriously though, I've never been a fan of the Stormcloaks. Even at the start I sided with the Imperials (because I though Hadvar seemed like a nice guy, which I admit isn't the best reason).

Is there a better reason when you've got two groups of stupid jerks pummeling each other with weapons?

I sided with the Imperials but Tullius yelled at me because I pretty much gave Ulfric everything he wanted in the negotiations. I was like, I don't care what I give him, because I'm just going to conquer it all back for you after I get done with this dragon business.

 

[JimmyC99]

ok as far as i recall the lore Skyrim was originally Elven land, like all of tamriel, it was the home of the Snow Elves, known better now as the Falmor. after them it was the Dwarves, who vanished. Skyrim needs the Empire, without it, the Aldmarii will invade and they will win, they took half of Hammerfall, Half of Cyrodil, they control Elyswere, the Summerset Isles, Morrowind and Vvadenfall and i think Black Marsh. the Empire still exists because of 2 things the Redguards holding the Red Desert and the Emperor being a tactical genius.

and as a Elf, FUCK the Stormcloaks and their Racist bullshit.



oohhhhh yea, i forgot something

a paraphrase from an NPC

"everyone still has their shrine to Talos despite the ban, it was when Ulfric up and got all bitchy that the Empire HAD to step in to avoid war"

BAM. the Thalmor in Skyrim is Ulfric's fault.

 

[DC Boxer]

As quoted from UESP:

Later, in 4E 171, the Thalmor invaded Hammerfell and Cyrodiil after Titus Mede II rejected their Ultimatum. Aldmeri forces would push deep into both provinces, taking many cities, including the Imperial City. The Thalmor then faced their greatest defeat (later known as the Battle of the Red Ring), in which they lost all of their forces in Cyrodiil. Despite this, due mainly to the exhaustion of the Imperial Legions, the Great War ended with the White-Gold Concordat, which resulted in Talos worship being outlawed in the Empire, and a significant portion of Southern Hammerfell becoming part of the Dominion. However, Hammerfell rejected the treaty and left the Empire, continuing to fight the Thalmor until 4E 180, when the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai was signed by both sides, resulting in the Aldmeri forces pulling out of Hammerfell, and a territorial status quo.[2]


Apparently, the Imnperial's are the good guys - having beaten the elves, but being in a position were they couldn't finalize the victory decided on a Stalemate. If the stormcloak's would stop their revolution and join the empire and Hammerfell, the elves may actually be pushed back.

Except the Stormcloaks wouldn't be joining the Empire and Hammerfell; Hammerfell seceeded, like it said in the article that you just quoted.

Furthermore, the fact that the Thalmor would be able to take either the Empire or an independent Skyrim is a total lie. The Altmer wouldn't be able to handle either faction at the rate things are going now, especially since both the Stormcloaks and the Imperials are both fully aware that as soon as this Civil War ends, the Dominion is next on the chopping block.

The bottom line, to put each faction into layman's terms, is this:
The Stormcloaks are Nationalist Libertarian Conservatives, looking to preserve their culture and their worship of Talos through independence and ethical superiority.
The Imperials are Imperialist Authoritarian Liberals, looking to coordinated and impartial government in order to solve their problems, while maintaining a tight hold on dissidents with capital punishment.

Frankly, it doesn't matter who you think would win, because either/or would be able to take the Dominion no problem, especially based on the in-game writing.

The spoiler contains my personal opinion on which faction I'd work with. It is not necessary to quote, and it has some spoilers about the Civil War.

Spoiler

Personally, it's hard for me to make a choice. I've always been one for independence and self-sufficiency, but at the same time there's always the problem of leaving small-scale politicians in control of a formerly-diverse region. While I'd like to say that the Nords will get over their racism once they put the White-Gold Concordat behind them, there's always the issue of favoritism, especially after that political purge that follows Stormcloak conquests.

Of course, there's also the problem of Imperial conquests and their replacement Jarls. Maven takes total control of Riften if the Imperials win, which is a bit of a problem if you know what Riften is like. This also lends itself to the theory that the Imperials are Affably Evil rather than just doing what needs to be done: they're callous, and it shows, particularly if they win. Sure, Tullius is a personable guy, but you aren't fighting to elect one person to power or another. No, you're fighting for a set of ideals. The fact that Tullius is more likeable or more down-to-earth than Ulfric has nothing to do with why you're fighting, because if the Imperials win, he's leaving to go fight the Thalmor. The Nords will again, be placed under the boot of an oppressive Empire.

Sure, the Stormcloaks get stuck with Ulfric, but one person only lasts so long. The ideals of the Nordic Nation will inevitably change. Racism will die out, with just as much certainty that the White-Gold Concordat will be repealed.

I agree with Stormcloak philosophy more, but I'm playing through both storylines, so my actual choice is somewhat diminished by the fact that I chose both.

 

[DemonCrim]

I played as a high elf and sided with the Empire for the soul reason that Ulfric was a racist prick that was throwing a tantrum because he didn't get his was way.

And I put his head on a stick because of it

 

[Evil Top Hat]

To be honest i went with the stormcloaks by accident in the beginning of the game where the dragon is attacking and you have to choose imperial or stormcloak it said the name of the person to follow I had no idea who was who and just went for the closest door.

It doesn't matter who you run off with at the start, you can pick either faction regardless. I went with the Stormcloak guy by accident too, and there are literally no consequences for doing so.

 

[pumuckl]

I only just realised...

Nationalistic political entity that hates all races except for the Nordic race overthrowing a foreign, imposed government?

Rise of the Nazis anyone?



OT: Stormcloaks get more support because its cool to be a rebel.

as long as we dont start seeing elven internment camps i think we'll be ok

ot: i think everyone misunderstands the Nords distrust towards other races as racism, and hatred. Ulric's a man fighting for his people, he cant go letting other races with hidden agendas getting in too close too him or other high ranking members.

also, remember that Imperials are more often then not racist as well, just cuz you figure out how most effectively to assimilate a group of people, doesn't meen you're not destroying they're culture or that you love them. It just that you're the better jerk.

and about the queen who says Ulric killed the king unjustly, SHE WANTS THE THRONE TOO. Yeah, cuz she has no reason to lie too you. video games cant lie right?

lastly, to sum this all up in hopefully a more consise manner, HOW CAN YOU BE RACIST, AND A PUPPET OF ELVEN INTERESTS? if you ask me, Ulric is the type that'd never let his enemy an inch of peace, as long as they attempted to rest on his homeland. In war time, national pride is essential, and the imperials just dont have it any more, the stripping of their gods was the stripping of their power, and the Thalmer knew that. It will take someone more stuborn then intelligent to defeat them imo.

 

[pffh]

I only just realised...

Nationalistic political entity that hates all races except for the Nordic race overthrowing a foreign, imposed government?

Rise of the Nazis anyone?



OT: Stormcloaks get more support because its cool to be a rebel.

as long as we dont start seeing elven internment camps i think we'll be ok

What about ghettos? Like say the grey quarter in Windhelm or the fact that Argonians aren't even let into the city.