Stuff You've Changed Your Mind On

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
I'm the opposite with adventure Time. Well I didn't mind a overarching story plots, all the characters became bigger jerks. The ones that were nicer anyway. This is especially true for princess bubblegum. She became unbearable and it basically took to the last few seasons to tell down her assholery and finally get called out on it. I did see the last few episodes of the series finale just for completion sake. But I don't think I'm ever going to watch the show again.
I had heard that criticism and actually re-watched the show again because of it and really that seems overblown. There is really only one episode where she just seems out of character bad, everything else isn't actually that bad or makes sense within the confines of being a ruler over a civilization of idiots.

That looks like the right one yes. And yes I do have a soft spot for characters who are able to find the joy and humor in any situation, and try to not take anything too seriously. It speaks to my soul very much.
Shes got a lot of great moments.
 

happyninja42

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Shes got a lot of great moments.
Yeah I found a clip from the episode that broke me. The bit that just had me giggling like a fool was about 2:00 in this clip.


That actress who voices her does "insane panic" so well, it's great. xD
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Yeah I found a clip from the episode that broke me. The bit that just had me giggling like a fool was about 2:00 in this clip.


That actress who voices her does "insane panic" so well, it's great. xD
Heh, yeah that is a great bit. The voice cast for the show in general is amazing. Like tha VA that does Pinkie Pie (Andria Libman) also does Fluttershy and a bunch of minor characters also. The VA that does Rainbow Dash (Ashleign Ball) also does Applejack, and the VA for Rarity (Tabitha ST. Germain) does Granny Smith, Luna and a ton of other ones. I think Andria Libman also sings for Fluttershy and does some songs for Pinkie Pie.
 

Dalisclock

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OT: Signs. I still enjoy this movie on some levels, but the blatant Hollywood Atheist trope that is the premise, really annoys me these days. I used to not really notice that, but after being openly atheist, I've come to notice how media portrays them, and how painfully wrong it is, on so many levels. And how, a story that is actually a horrible case for their god, is portrayed as some kind of life fulfilling event, or some such bullshit.

Like, ok god, so, you knew about an upcoming invasion of aliens, so instead of using your OMNIPOTENT abilities to...oh I don't know, STOP it from happening, or clearly and concisely warning the entire planet so they could prepare super soakers....instead...your grand plan...is to set up events to have my wife CUT IN HALF by a sleeping driver, so that as she's dying, and the blood is draining from her brain and she's clearly delusional, you can sneak in a cryptic message to me, that won't pay off for over a year or whatever, and still requires my 2 dogs to die, along with who knows how many other people. So I had to lose my wife, my children now have to grow up without a mother, our family is broken, but hey, thanks for giving me that warning god! I feel so inspired now I will put on my priest collar again and preach your divine grace to the people! So that one day, if they too are lucky, they can ALSO have their loved ones die horribly at your command, to convey a message that is cryptic as shit, years later. Yay god!

And I'm just like....*facepalm*
Yeah, the "It's about faith" explnation doesn't work at all. The whole thing is so fucking circumstantial it makes no sense no matter how you think about it. Then again, there are certain religious types who will use "God moves in mysterious ways" to justify pretty much anything. Like why kids die from cancer.

That's on top of the whole "Aliens who are burned by Water chose to invade a planet that's 70% water and whose inhabitants contain a substatial amount of water to even survive" idiocy. The only explanation we're given is some late night talk radio show about "Well, the aliens dont want to use nukes because resources". Yep, that explains everything. Because Nukes and bare hands(and no protective gear at all) are literally the only two choices they had.

The best theory I've ever heard is that the aliens in Signs are literally all the undiserables/convicts/whatever from the alien civilization, exiled to what to them is a death world. Which honestly would have been a far more interesting movie.
 

happyninja42

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Yeah, the "It's about faith" explnation doesn't work at all. The whole thing is so fucking circumstantial it makes no sense no matter how you think about it. Then again, there are certain religious types who will use "God moves in mysterious ways" to justify pretty much anything. Like why kids die from cancer.
Clarification, are you saying my statement that the plot is "about faith" doesn't work? Or the way the "it's about faith" thing is used in the film? because if it's the latter, I agree it's so circumstantial it makes no sense, but the thing is, that's exactly how a lot of religious people justify their faith. I've heard them say, totally serious, that because they think that God did A, which meant B happened, which meant C happened, all the way to Z being the end result. Thus, god is real and loves me. No matter how many of those steps between A and Z, were horrible things, it's all proof. What more do you need?! Come on! You're just denying the truth you see in front of you! Of god's touch on this world and how he moves everything!! blah blah blah. This isn't just a movie trope, this is the actual rationale real people have when asked about why they believe in a god. They would point to a series of events like in Signs, and go "see? god, boom" mic drop.

That's on top of the whole "Aliens who are burned by Water chose to invade a planet that's 70% water and whose inhabitants contain a substatial amount of water to even survive" idiocy. The only explanation we're given is some late night talk radio show about "Well, the aliens dont want to use nukes because resources". Yep, that explains everything. Because Nukes and bare hands(and no protective gear at all) are literally the only two choices they had.
Eh, I just figured it was a case of "they go to whatever planet has the resources (us) they need." The fact that it's a hazardous environment for them doesn't mean it's not a viable strategy. I mean how many insanely dangerous locations do we work in as humans, because it's the only place to obtain the resources we desire?

To give a real world comparison that just came to mind. Alaskan Crab. The location these animals are found in, is incredibly dangerous to humans. So much so we have a decades long series that documents just how insane you have to be to try and harvest that resource, and it does kill people. The odds of a human surviving falling off one of those ships is incredibly low. The waters are dangerous and choppy as hell, and the equipment used to harvest can potentially kill and maim the crew. But hey, you're not getting Alaskan crab any other way, so you suit up, and hope you don't die so you can make money doing it. And that's just ONE hazardous job we have in our society. And the humans having a lot of water in them that's hazardous, well, there are a lot of elements and compounds that we have in us, that individually would kill us, but thanks to chemical bonds and the like, they are essential for us to live.

So that point, that ONE point, was never a really big issue for me when criticizing the film. It had so many other problems for me as I saw it more and more. Though I will agree that the way M Knight presents it leaves a lot of problems in the execution of the twist.
 

Dalisclock

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Clarification, are you saying my statement that the plot is "about faith" doesn't work? Or the way the "it's about faith" thing is used in the film? because if it's the latter, I agree i

Eh, I just figured it was a case of "they go to whatever planet has the resources (us) they need." The fact that it's a hazardous environment for them doesn't mean it's not a viable strategy. I mean how many insanely dangerous locations do we work in as humans, because it's the only place to obtain the resources we desire?
The Latter, where the films take on it doesn't work. I agree wtih you.

As for the second point we do go to hazardous environments to get resources, but humans actually use specialized(or as much as feasible) tools, protection and equipment for said situations. The Signs Aliens apparently go butt naked and get themselves locked in pantries because....reasons?

I'm going to leave the question of "What resources do the aliens need they can't get more easily from astriods, comets, unihabited planets that aren't covered in water, etc?" because the aliens aren't given any characterization other then streaking through Indian Birthday parties, shining their brights at major cities and getting stopped by patry doors.
 
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happyninja42

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The Latter, where the films take on it doesn't work. I agree wtih you.

As for the second point we do go to hazardous environments to get resources, but humans actually use specialized(or as much as feasible) tools, protection and equipment for said situations. The Signs Aliens apparently go butt naked and get themselves locked in pantries because....reasons?

I'm going to leave the question of "What resources do the aliens need they can't get more easily from astriods, comets, unihabited planets that aren't covered in water, etc?" because the aliens aren't given any characterization other then streaking through Indian Birthday parties, shining their brights at major cities and getting stopped by patry doors.
Like I said, I agree that M Knight's execution wasn't the best, but I distinctly recall the movie establishing that the resource they were after was us. That one radio broadcast they tune into at the end, where that guy says something like "See that's why they didn't nuke our planet and kill our forces, because they wanted US. " So I assumed it was some kind of organic harvesting thing. And if the resource needed is Human, then there are literally zero asteroids or comets that you could find that on, for obvious reasons :p

I guess I've just read too much scifi, where they often establish that there is a sort of commonality to a lot of organic life out there, with some variations on tolerable ranges of environment. John Scalzi's Old Man's War series of books goes into this really well, that most of the aliens are constantly fighting each other for planetary space, because they all have a...would it be Vinn Diagram I guess?, commonality of ecosystems they can thrive on, and since those planets are somewhat limited in availability, they fight over it. So while Planet X might be like, a 4/10 on the survivability scale for The Greys (meaning it's doable, but not fun, and a lot of the biome isn't hospitable to them), for Humans, Planet X might be an 9/10 for habitability. And also he established that one race in his book series, considered Humans to be a delicacy, and so they would actively seek out their colonies to use them as livestock.

That's kind of the way I saw that part of Signs. It being some kind of "yeah the water part sucks, but we aren't here for the water, we're here for the humans that are on land. well we can tolerate the land, so let's go harvest us some human gibblets!"

Again, M Knight didn't really execute that very well I think, as your criticisms about them being nekked streakers at kid's birthday parties isn't the most practical method of invasion are totally valid. But the concept of it, as presented, I don't think is all that bad. It holds together in theory to me, if not execution.
 

Dalisclock

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Like I said, I agree that M Knight's execution wasn't the best, but I distinctly recall the movie establishing that the resource they were after was us. That one radio broadcast they tune into at the end, where that guy says something like "See that's why they didn't nuke our planet and kill our forces, because they wanted US. " So I assumed it was some kind of organic harvesting thing. And if the resource needed is Human, then there are literally zero asteroids or comets that you could find that on, for obvious reasons :p
I dont remember that part. Granted, I saw the movie way back around the time it came out. Also, was the radio broadcast like the news or was it basically one of those flat earther lizard-people run the world late night shows? I swear some of the stuff they were listening to was kind of on the cra-cra end of the spectrum.

Though if that is true, begs the question, if a glass of water burns you, how is ingesting humans(who are like 60% water and that's like 100ish pounds for most people) remotely feasible?

It feels like M Knight wanted to set up that stupid water thing because "WHAT A TWIST"(the "God sent me a message through my dying wife" doesn't help) and totally didn't think about how fucking stupid it came across the moment you think about it any way. Its like if I made a movie where Humans invade Venus in hawaiian shirts so they could eat Xenomorphs(which have acid for blood). You'd be right to call it out as making no sense.
 
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happyninja42

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I dont remember that part. Granted, I saw the movie way back around the time it came out. Also, was the radio broadcast like the news or was it basically one of those flat earther lizard-people run the world late night shows?
As I recall, it sounded like just some dude broadcasting in the initial recovery period. Not some official Government Announcement or anything. But I mean, in film logic, since there hasn't been any Unreliable Narrator type situation set up, and it's the resolution, it's usually safe to assume this information is accurate, which is why it's being presented to the audience. To help wrap up the story.

Though if that is true, begs the question, if a glass of water burns you, how is ingesting humans(who are like 60% water and that's like 100ish pounds for most people) remotely feasible?
For the same reason that Sodium by itself is poisonous to humans, and too much Potassium is as well, but when combined they make salt, which is vital to our survival? *shrugs* Chemistry is weird, as is cooking and organic digestion. Maybe it's only harmful when it's just pure water, but as part of organic matter, it's just fine. Like I said, it's not great, I admit, but I just don't think it's as completely off the wall like a lot of critics have said over the years. I'm pretty sure someone with enough research, could find some better examples than my sodium potassium/salt example of how water might be lethal to them externally, but not internally, when eating processed flesh. Maybe they make dried jerky out of us, I dunno :p I acknowledge this is all speculation on my part, as they sure as hell don't address it in the film. I just don't find THIS bit as narratively messy as most people. I have my own issue with this film, as illustrated above, the scifi/alien part of it, is barely a blip to me personally.

It feels like M Knight wanted to set up that stupid water thing because "WHAT A TWIST"(the "God sent me a message through my dying wife" doesn't help) and totally didn't think about how fucking stupid it came across the moment you think about it any way. Its like if I made a movie where Humans invade Venus in hawaiian shirts so they could eat Xenomorphs(which have acid for blood). You'd be right to call it out as making no sense.
I don't disagree, as the twist hook was his thing. I just, I find it more amusing that the water wasn't really needed. I mean, the alien reacted VERY badly to being hit by a bat, it's not like they were immune. Joaquin wails on him with that bat multiple times, and every time that bat thuds into the alien, he clearly screams like...well like someone being beat to death with a bat. So to ME, the whole issue with the water "weakness" was that they didn't establish them being immune to anything at all, making the water part irrelevant. It would be like establishing that Superman is weak to Kryptonite....but that things like knives, and bullets, and flame, all work just fine too. So yeah, I mean you could go out of your way to track down some Kryptonie to use on him....but...why? You have tons of other options available to you, that are actually weaponized, from eons of improvements by humanity.
 

Dalisclock

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I don't disagree, as the twist hook was his thing. I just, I find it more amusing that the water wasn't really needed. I mean, the alien reacted VERY badly to being hit by a bat, it's not like they were immune. Joaquin wails on him with that bat multiple times, and every time that bat thuds into the alien, he clearly screams like...well like someone being beat to death with a bat. So to ME, the whole issue with the water "weakness" was that they didn't establish them being immune to anything at all, making the water part irrelevant. It would be like establishing that Superman is weak to Kryptonite....but that things like knives, and bullets, and flame, all work just fine too. So yeah, I mean you could go out of your way to track down some Kryptonie to use on him....but...why? You have tons of other options available to you, that are actually weaponized, from eons of improvements by humanity.
Maybe I need to rewatch the film and it'll possibly make more sense watching it now. It's on Hulu apparently so I might check it out.

Of course, now that you mention using a bat to take down the aliens....

 
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Gordon_4

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Well why are you angry at god? It doesn't make sense to be angry at something you don't think exists.
There’s a great scene in an early episode of Becker related to that question:

Margaret: “John, how can you be persecuted by a God you don’t believe in?”

Becker: “That’s why he’s after me, Margaret”
 

Drathnoxis

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For the same reason that Sodium by itself is poisonous to humans, and too much Potassium is as well, but when combined they make salt, which is vital to our survival? *shrugs* Chemistry is weird, as is cooking and organic digestion. Maybe it's only harmful when it's just pure water, but as part of organic matter, it's just fine. Like I said, it's not great, I admit, but I just don't think it's as completely off the wall like a lot of critics have said over the years. I'm pretty sure someone with enough research, could find some better examples than my sodium potassium/salt example of how water might be lethal to them externally, but not internally, when eating processed flesh. Maybe they make dried jerky out of us, I dunno :p I acknowledge this is all speculation on my part, as they sure as hell don't address it in the film. I just don't find THIS bit as narratively messy as most people. I have my own issue with this film, as illustrated above, the scifi/alien part of it, is barely a blip to me personally.
Table salt is sodium chloride. A sodium potassium alloy is usually liquid at room temperature, highly reactive with water, and catches fire when exposed to air. Definitely not something you want to eat.
 

happyninja42

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Well why are you angry at god? It doesn't make sense to be angry at something you don't think exists.
I'm still genuinely curious if you are being serious with this question or not. Because others have been in the past, so while I'd like to think it's just a joke, I sadly can't be sure these days.
 

happyninja42

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Table salt is sodium chloride. A sodium potassium alloy is usually liquid at room temperature, highly reactive with water, and catches fire when exposed to air. Definitely not something you want to eat.
Yes thank you, brain fart there on my basic chemistry. Odd thing is I was saying "sodium chloride" in my head while typing, but it came out as potassium for some reason.
 

BrawlMan

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I had heard that criticism and actually re-watched the show again because of it and really that seems overblown. There is really only one episode where she just seems out of character bad, everything else isn't actually that bad or makes sense within the confines of being a ruler over a civilization of idiots.
Does not make it any better. Yes, tone it down with her, but it showed up for time to time. The fact she does not get punished for it, until way later (the fact that some of the writers were trying defend Bubblegum's dumb ass decisions) was not helping. I enjoyed the last few episodes, but I rather not go through the series again.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Does not make it any better. Yes, tone it down with her, but it showed up for time to time. The fact she does not get punished for it, until way later (the fact that some of the writers were trying defend Bubblegum's dumb ass decisions) was not helping. I enjoyed the last few episodes, but I rather not go through the series again.
What dumb ass decisions do you mean? Cause again, I only remember one maybe two episodes that really hit her on that. I feel like one of the writers just didn't like her.
 

BrawlMan

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What dumb ass decisions do you mean? Cause again, I only remember one maybe two episodes that really hit her on that. I feel like one of the writers just didn't like her.
The whole magic vs. science thing being a big contention. It's a big problem when both exists, and both have been used in combination in the entire fucking show! I admit, it's been a long while, but that is when my interests in the show started to drop. But it wasn't just her, Finn and Jake, got acted more like assholes and out of character in certain ways. Also, the shipping got annoying and in the way (a problem with a lot of shows from the 2010s) of the plot. And when it was going somewhere the writers, and PB by extension, had to fuck it up. The romance between Flame Princess and Finn I actually did not mind. Them screwing that up, was more or less the final straw for me.
 
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Hawki

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On the subject of Signs, I haven't seen it, but I've seen a theory that the aliens are actually demons, and that we only perceive them as aliens because more people believe in aliens rather than demons or somesuch. That the water burning the alien isn't really a biological reaction, but that it damages the alien/demon due to being holy water, per the character's faith or something.

Make of that what you will.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
The whole magic vs. science thing being a big contention. It's a big problem when both exists, and both have been used in combination in the entire fucking show! I admit, it's been a long while, but that is when my interests in the show started to drop. But it wasn't just her, Finn and Jake, got acted more like assholes and out of character in certain ways. Also, the shipping got annoying and in the way (a problem with a lot of shows from the 2010s) of the plot. And when it was going somewhere the writers, and PB by extension, had to fuck it up. The romance between Flame Princess and Finn I actually did not mind. Them screwing that up, was more or less the final straw for me.
I don't recall that showing up much, but yeah that was annoying. I think it was one of those things that happened when the show started trying to have more of plot instead of just an adventure of the week kinda thing. Finn and Flame Princess were fun, but I mean they are kids, I wouldn't expect any relationship from that age to last really any time at all.
 

BrawlMan

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Finn and Flame Princess were fun, but I mean they are kids, I wouldn't expect any relationship from that age to last really any time at all.
The only reason the relationship got ruined, was mainly because of Princess Bubblegum. I not saying the relationship would have lasted forever. But if it was going to fail, it should have been on their terms, not hers.

EDIT - Also, this excerpt from the tropes page:

Princess Bubblegum's darker side was emphasized as early as Season 3, with her creation of Lemongrab being something akin to a Mad Scientist creation. It was well received, giving some more depth to her character. Later seasons, however, are criticized for taking this dark side and taking it to borderline sociopathic levels, with the "Bubblegum calling a bunch of wizards idiots for believing in magic" scene being The Last Straw for many. Season 7 received praise for addressing this problem through a story line in which Bubblegum's behavior ends up getting her dethroned temporarily
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FranchiseOriginalSin/WesternAnimation
 
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