Super Mario Galaxy 2
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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Yahtzee, this is why I respect you so much. Even if you are fond of sweeping generalisations and hurling abuse at developers, audiences at critics alike, there's a strong underlying reasoning behind it all, and you've expressed it exceptionally well here.
Personally, I hope that the next mainline Mario game will continue to innovate again. While I've greatly enjoyed both Galaxy and Galaxy 2, I'm quite aware of the "expansion pack" nature of it, and have been carefully ignoring all the hand-crafted hand-holding Nintendo has packed into the game. It's much better to play in a relaxed, one-hour-per-day way I've found.
Mario certainly isn't casual, but Nintendo is determined to make their idyllic polo-shirt wearing happy families cross the gap into more complex 3D gaming.
Personally, I hope that the next mainline Mario game will continue to innovate again. While I've greatly enjoyed both Galaxy and Galaxy 2, I'm quite aware of the "expansion pack" nature of it, and have been carefully ignoring all the hand-crafted hand-holding Nintendo has packed into the game. It's much better to play in a relaxed, one-hour-per-day way I've found.
Mario certainly isn't casual, but Nintendo is determined to make their idyllic polo-shirt wearing happy families cross the gap into more complex 3D gaming.
I hated, HATED, the controls for Gish. Moving that blob around was so frustrating that I quit after about 4 levels. I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who's never played a 2D platformer.TheBlackKnight said:
I agree World of Goo would be great for a newbie, but I kind of consider it a casual game. Unless you are masochistic enough to go for OCD.
One time my mom decided she was going to play super smash bros. She couldn't even navigate on a 2D plane. She just sat there jumping up and down confused by the very idea of an analog stick.
Some people are hopeless.
Some people are hopeless.
Personally, if I had to recommend a game to someone new to gaming, I would probably recommend something along the lines of Ratchet and Clank. Excellent difficulty curve, unique sense of humour, solid platforming combined with a bit of 3rd person shooting action and a nice story, that isn't too complex to understand but not too measly to dismiss without a second glance.
New games being unfriendly to brand-new gamers is one of the reasons I'm sad to see tutorial stages disappear from games.
Let me clarify that: when I say "tutorial stage" I mean an entirely separate level from the game itself where the player navigates an obstacle-course-like level where they learn the basics and have the freedom to do so without a support character yelling at them to hurry up. The original Half-Life had this with the "Hazard Course," and even the Opposing Force expansion put you through an entertaining mini-Boot Camp. Deus Ex had a whole "training and evaluation" level where you saw how you could solve one scenario with different techniques. The whole idea of this stage was to be optional, so veterans could gloss over it but newbies could practice it again and again, making sure they have the technique down correctly (instead of getting it right once by luck and being forced on to the next item with no idea what just happened).
Nowadays (god that makes me sound old) the tutorial is crammed into the first level of the actual game, and usually in an environment that doesn't encourage exploration or proper pacing. Take the first level of Knights of the Old Republic for instance: you're on a ship being blown apart and have to make a mad-dash for the escape pods; how is that a good time to learn about inventory management? The intro to Mass Effect 2 wasn't much better: new gameplay is being introduced while you're fighting for your life against killer robots. By jamming the lesson plan into the first level, it actually slows the game down and makes replay more irritating because you know you'll have to see all those tips and pop-ups again.
Let me clarify that: when I say "tutorial stage" I mean an entirely separate level from the game itself where the player navigates an obstacle-course-like level where they learn the basics and have the freedom to do so without a support character yelling at them to hurry up. The original Half-Life had this with the "Hazard Course," and even the Opposing Force expansion put you through an entertaining mini-Boot Camp. Deus Ex had a whole "training and evaluation" level where you saw how you could solve one scenario with different techniques. The whole idea of this stage was to be optional, so veterans could gloss over it but newbies could practice it again and again, making sure they have the technique down correctly (instead of getting it right once by luck and being forced on to the next item with no idea what just happened).
Nowadays (god that makes me sound old) the tutorial is crammed into the first level of the actual game, and usually in an environment that doesn't encourage exploration or proper pacing. Take the first level of Knights of the Old Republic for instance: you're on a ship being blown apart and have to make a mad-dash for the escape pods; how is that a good time to learn about inventory management? The intro to Mass Effect 2 wasn't much better: new gameplay is being introduced while you're fighting for your life against killer robots. By jamming the lesson plan into the first level, it actually slows the game down and makes replay more irritating because you know you'll have to see all those tips and pop-ups again.
I agree that LBP is a great first game for gaming newbies. Personally, I think that NSMBWii is as well.
LPB as someones first game? For realzies? The awkward 3D shenanigans and floaty controls make me throw the controller at a wall and I've played video games for thousands of hours during 10 or so years.
I'd probably recommend some sort of not too violent FPS game like Half-Life 2. I think the fast pace and pretty easy but pretty fun puzzles would be good for a starter.
I'd probably recommend some sort of not too violent FPS game like Half-Life 2. I think the fast pace and pretty easy but pretty fun puzzles would be good for a starter.
About the whole casual thing. Most long time gamers take all of their skills for granted. All the skills you have with games, a newcomer has none of it. Zip, zero, nothing. That includes basic moving and looking. Moving and looking is a massive challenge in and of itself, and add in the many buttons, it becomes a near-impassibly barrier.
To a new gamer, I can't really decide what they should play, depending on what they like. If they like Sci Fi, then despite it's issues, and if you've never played a Halo before to seee the general uncreativity, it would be a good first game. Not so easy that you can play it blindfolded, but not so challenging that you tear your hair out. My first game was Quake 3, and I got good at it within 20 minutes.
First I would like to say that Yahtzee is right about Galaxy 2 being a cop out for the Mario franchise which is why i didn't get it. Now I think that he is being slightly unfair to it. Let's look at the facts it is one of the few Mario sequels that happen to be on the same console as the last Mario game. So the game that will try to change up the formula would have been expected on the Wii 2 or whatever stupid name they can think of. This game is simply a bone being thrown at the frenzy of Mario fans to tide them over. Also as far as sequels go this game does do more work than other sequels and it is still a good game. Though it is still an annoying cop-out that Nintendo could have avoided since they had the resources to avoid it. All in all the fan boys are happy and the other people can ignore it for the more original things that people keep ignoring. Look up Little King's Story before you say it's stupid. Most of the strategy is throwing all the troops at an enemy, there are a few control issues, and the reason it doesn't use a Gamecube or Classic controller are unmentioned but often wondered. Though it has a strange art style, world, comedy and tries something different.
Your argument is flawed. Super Mario Galaxy is the highest rated game in 12 years, and people wanted more of it, so giving us that rather than making us wait an entire console generation for a new installment doesn't seem too evil, and I fail to see how having a game with double the stars of the last game is phoning it in. Also, SMB 2 wasn't not released in America because it was too similar to SMB 1, it wasn't released in America because it was too hard.
I'd give them Ninja Gaiden or Battle Toads... Throw them into the deep end... SINK OR MOTHERF- Wait I doubt that would actually work. Something like that would more than likely put them off gaming. Mmmm what about Viva Pinate?. The game is for kids yes, so the game is pretty much made to introduce new players. Every thing is made pretty easy for you and your constantly informed on how to play.
Portal would also be a good game to give to a new player. The game is puzzle based and in the first few levels it's impossible to die or lose, the game has decent enough difficulty curve where in the new gamer can learn to play and it never gets so mind numbingly hard as to turn a player off playing.
Portal would also be a good game to give to a new player. The game is puzzle based and in the first few levels it's impossible to die or lose, the game has decent enough difficulty curve where in the new gamer can learn to play and it never gets so mind numbingly hard as to turn a player off playing.
On the subject on good games for beginners, I had some success teaching my girlfriend about gaming by working up from the Lego games. The Lego series has stories that most people already know and understand, simple mechanics, and they're co-op, so I could play with her. Plus, the mechanics and controls are pretty indicative of gaming as a whole, they aren't as specific to the game as with casual titles like 2D puzzle games or the like. You're actually moving and jumping a 3D avatar.
So, that's what has worked for me to introduce non-gamers to the mechanics, anyway.
So, that's what has worked for me to introduce non-gamers to the mechanics, anyway.
LBP is a great starter. It's how I got my fiancé to really start playing. Then we went back and forth with good ol side scrolling fighting games, such as Double Dragon and Castle Crashers. The next step was Diablo 2 and stupid WoW, then I was able to get her into Borderlands, which surprisingly enough, is a good start with FPS training.
Also, very good point with MG2. I'm actually sick of every single Nintendo rehashes. Mario, Link, ect.. Just give me something new and fresh please.
Also, very good point with MG2. I'm actually sick of every single Nintendo rehashes. Mario, Link, ect.. Just give me something new and fresh please.
At least they had the curtsy to put the drawn out tutorial on a separate disc, unlike the first boot up of Red Steel 2 that has to be one of the most demeaning insulting tutorial of the lot, being borderline "but the only plug in the only socket".
My main issue with SMG2 is the critical reception. Sure it's still the same quality entertainment but the first game was original, thus made it fit for praise. The sequel however is an extended retread that while still worthy of high praise, NOT the same as the first... which it has, if not more so.
Anyway, games aren't not released in America for being hard anymore.
My main issue with SMG2 is the critical reception. Sure it's still the same quality entertainment but the first game was original, thus made it fit for praise. The sequel however is an extended retread that while still worthy of high praise, NOT the same as the first... which it has, if not more so.
But did people really say they wanted more OF THE SAME or more GREAT NEW IDEAS 3D Super Mario can produce? Their next non Galaxy game will no doubt ably be much better and warranted.Decabo said:
Anyway, games aren't not released in America for being hard anymore.
Borderlands? A coventional run and gun style would be more simple than RPG-esque micromanagement.Ewoc said:
I regularly play LBP with visitors who are non-gamers but want to play something. It's intuitive and adorable, and very, VERY hard to get stressed about, so it's always good fun.
But if I was feeling harsh...probably X-COM...bwhahahahahahaaa
But if I was feeling harsh...probably X-COM...bwhahahahahahaaa
Little Big Planet is a good choice for platformers. Being an indie freak, I would have said Braid, but it's pretty much the same either way. (LBP is about as 3D as a pop up book).
I think it matters more which genre you want to introduce the gamer to. I mean, Little Big Planet isn't going to be much help if the new guy wants to try a first person shooter afterwards. I guess something by Valve would be good for that. Maybe Left For Dead because of the coop element. RPGs would be even tougher to transition to considering how unintuitive they can be to the uninitiated, but maybe a Zelda. They have some of the equipping and quest aspects without being too overwhelming, but it isn't all that good of an example.
Anyway, about the review. Since the game itself was pretty much the same as Mario Galaxy + a few extra maps, Yahtzee's right to be generally mad, but I had a ton of fun with the game anyway. As map packs posing as games go, you could do way worse than Galaxy 2.
I think it matters more which genre you want to introduce the gamer to. I mean, Little Big Planet isn't going to be much help if the new guy wants to try a first person shooter afterwards. I guess something by Valve would be good for that. Maybe Left For Dead because of the coop element. RPGs would be even tougher to transition to considering how unintuitive they can be to the uninitiated, but maybe a Zelda. They have some of the equipping and quest aspects without being too overwhelming, but it isn't all that good of an example.
Anyway, about the review. Since the game itself was pretty much the same as Mario Galaxy + a few extra maps, Yahtzee's right to be generally mad, but I had a ton of fun with the game anyway. As map packs posing as games go, you could do way worse than Galaxy 2.