Superman Could Get Dark Knight Treatment

TheDoctor455

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Apr 1, 2009
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Nurb said:
But... Superman's style has never been "dark and angsty". I hope that's not the direction they're taking him.
Yeah... especially considering Superman's "boy scout" personality... how the hell could he interrogate ANYONE? But then again... I just don't really care what they do with Superman... he just wasn't that interesting a character... given his powers, there really wasn't any suspense as to whether or not he'll win... because he ALWAYS wins... unless the mook he's fighting has kryptonite, in which case... he'll win as long as there's someone else nearby to give him a hand.
 

Dr Happypills

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Dec 21, 2009
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Short answer;
Superman wins as often as the other heroes. Superman is as powerful or capable as the situation calls for. Like the other superheroes. Including Batman. It's just become popular to dump on him specifically.
Read comics.
 

shedra

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Sep 15, 2009
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Stein Inge said:
Could not care less who they will get to direct, act in or otherwise contribute.
He´s simply to overpowered to be interesting.
And he got his ass handed to him by a geriatric Batman so there...
Wrong, superman can be killed and his enemies are almost all capable of doing so.
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Chirs N better not go dark. it'll be just as lame as Spider-Man 3 (Spiderman isn't dark, but they tried to make him dark, then didn't go far enough so it couldn't be taken seriously).

What they need to do is keep superman superman and not try and teak him to be "hip" or "edgy". Superman is neither. Have him do the Iron Man thing and send him to fight terrorists. In a not killy, bloody, bullety way. Just a "I subdued him because I'm fucking superman way".
 

Vault Citizen

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personally I think a dark and gritty Superman would be as bad, if not worse than a light, campy Batman. Superman isn't a dark character and I don't think people should try to make him one.
 

annoyinglizardvoice

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Apr 29, 2009
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Personally, I don't think Superman really works as a character for a movie. In a movie you have to cram everything about the character into a small space of time, so it would be difficult to get much more than "(insert villan here) has an evil sceme, Superman foils it due to brute strength + bravery".
A noir-ish take would probably be out of character.
To make the film look good, a villan who could fight against him rather than just plot would be needed (Metalo, Lobo), but not one who would complicate things to much (Brainiac, Darkseid).
 

FlameUnquenchable

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Apr 27, 2010
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I didn't mind Superman Returns that much, except for the numerous Jesus references that the movie made. Right, we get it, he's the saviour of the planet ok move on.

The thing I don't understand is how people can't separate the character of Superman from say..I dunno...Batman. He's not the same guy, he's the other side of the coin.(no Batman villain pun intended)

Superman struggles just as much with psychological issues as Batman does, just they aren't the same issues. When someone writes him correctly, (see below) he can have a great story.

http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/superman-lives-script.html
 

Azrael the Cat

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Dec 13, 2008
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Personally, I think they 'almost' had the right idea last time, but executed it terribly. Superman is simply too overpowered to make him interesting in conventional terms, OR in 'edgy noir' terms (though, keep in mind that the original black-and-white and VERY successful Superman TV series was essentially a 'detective noir', where hard-nosed reporter Clark Kent tracked down the mysterious villain and then just turned into Superman when he worked out who the bad guy was and took him down in the end of the episode).

The only angle I can see that makes Superman at all interesting is to play UP the overpoweredness and the alienness. Make him the loneliest guy on earth - a beacon of light and hope and justice defending a world that repeatedly just doesn't seem worthy of it. That can be the difference between him and Batman - Batman is down in the gutter duking out, with an oh-so-thin line between him and the villains, Superman is up above it all, capable of taking down almost anything, but unlike Batman he has no reason to - these ant-like villains on Earth aren't anything to him, why should he even interfere?

They actually did that to a small extent in the first Superman movie (which seems ultra-cheesy now, but at the time was viewed as awesome - not quite KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!! awesome - but good nonetheless): when Superman (as Clark) first meets Louis she makes fun of him in an ordinary joking way, and he struggles to hide his astonishment, commenting 'why would anyone be deliberately cruel to another person?' or words to that effect. It's a nice moment, and sets up a certain loneliness in an film that was still very light-and-hope - if Superman is going to be so all-powerful that people are like ants, and so incorruptible that he's incapable of evil, the price he has to pay is that he can't ever fully understand the people he's protecting, who ARE capable of evil, even when they're mostly good.

It wouldn't exactly be a complete break from Superman continuity. It's always been there, and played up especially by the better writers over the years. Come-on, his base is the freaken FORTRESS OF SOLITUDE. The 'I'm up above it all, and just can't understand these people I'm protecting' is a running theme during Superman.

Oh, and if you want to see an awesome Superman story - check out 'Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?' - they got Alan Moore (you know, the guy that did a couple of minor comics called the Watchmen, V for Vendetta....) to do a proper finale for the Superman of the 70s and 80s, before they rebooted him again. Not at all suitable for a movie - it's clearly a sendoff, set 10 years after most of the super-villains have been defeated or retired, and then turns into an 'every major Superman character you can think of' comic - normally that guarantees an awful storyline, but somehow Moore manages to make a storyline with Bizarro, Metallo (those two only briefly), Braniac, the League of Supervillains, good-from-the-future-Braniac-5, Luthor, Mxyzptlk, super-powered Jimmy Olsen and Lana Lang work. And a large part of it is playing up the fact that Superman essentially lives alone with only a couple of friends that come close to understanding him...and what happens when certain super-villains kill those friends....(Moore doesn't hold back on the 'Superman is near-invincible, but his friends that put themselves at risk through their devotion to him are VERY mortal' theme).

Alan Moore is one of those writers that ruins comic books. Because once you've read Watchmen and V for Vendetta you realise that there just isn't going to be any other comics out there that will live up to them. Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow isn't quite up there with those - he isn't Moore's own character, and Moore has always preferred anti-heros (notice how despite Moore being a political socialist, all his heros are right-wing Ayn Randists, borderline fascists or ultra-individualist-anarchists?). But it's an Alan Moore comic nonetheless, and you couldn't wish for a better writer to do a Superman finale.
 

Azrael the Cat

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Re: the Spiderman 3 thing. The problem wasn't making him more/less dark. The problem was that fans and the studio said 'you can't do a trilogy without having Venom somewhere' and so he was squeezed into the film despite having no thematic connection to the series. Worse - they already HAD Venom in the series: Pete's best friend Harry. When adapting comic characters, the important thing isn't the names, costumes or even the powers - it's the themes and characterisation that makes them tick - that's why X-Men could change everything from line-ups to ages to powers and still rock for the first 2 films, because it captured the themes of the comics. The thematic role that Venom (talking original Venom, not Scorpion-Venom) plays is the anti-hero - he isn't 'Spiderman but evil' - he's Spiderman that kills his enemies, that holds grudges and isn't merciful to those he doesn't think deserve it. The iconic feature of Venom in the comics is that outside of brawling with Spiderman - who he personally hates for far more sympathetic reasons than in the movie - he's essentially a hero. Even the Spidey v Venom fight scenes tend to be broken up by Venom stopping to save some innocent bystander from being killed in the fray. Venom is basically 'Spidey if he went emo'. He's got all the same problems that Peter Parker has (in the comics) - working crappy jobs, struggles to hold down his relationships, and a world that doesn't appreciate heros. But whilst Parker always turns to looking on the bright side of things, Venom sees a world that has screwed him over - not that he's a villain, but while he's saving lives he also wants revenge on those who he sees as screwing him (namely Spiderman). His appeal as a character in the comics is that he's messed up, not evil - the ending of his character in the comics sums him up - he discovers that Parker is Spiderman and goes to wait for him outside Parker's house. He then thinks about how low he has sunk, that anyone - Parker's Aunt, Mary-Jane, some bystander - could get caught up, and being the emo-version-of-spidey that he is, deliberately OD's. (He ends up being made into a new 'hero' character 'White Venom', who's outgrown his 'emo'-ness a little).

Now who plays that role in the Spiderman film trilogy? Harry. At the end of film 2, and the start of 3, Harry isn't a villain - he just wants Spiderman dead. And he isn't evil, just a little too emo and blaming the wrong people for the wrong things - basically Venom with a different suit.

With a 'Venom' character already tied so strongly into the film, when they introduced Venom as a villain in 3, they had to make him a straight-up-evil-Spiderman, making him into a completely unsympathetic 2-dimensional villain. The problem with that is that between Venom and Sandman, it took up a whole lot of screen time that should have been spent on the main conflict of the series: Harry. The meta-arc so far has been Harry - a basically good but troubled guy - slowly discovering that Parker killed his father, setting things up for the conflict in the final film. And that's as good a Venom plotline as anyone could have asked for - what did it matter that they make him the Green Goblin Jnr instead of Venom when essentially his character is Venom's anyway? They should have scrapped the 'real' Venom, maybe scrap Sandman as well, and spent a LOT more time on the Harry v Parker conflict that the first two films set up so well.