Superman gets too much shit (And underrated heroes in general)

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Kordie

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Sparrow said:
While I will admit that I have not read a lot of superman comics, I have read some of those mentioned. It may be personal taste for me, but I find if the rest of the universe has to change to show an interesting story about your character, than the character is not that special for me.

To compare, thats why I found Red Son boring, but love the iredeemable series. In red son, they have to alter the world superman exists in to see how superman could be evil. To me I see that as superman not being special. It turns him from a character to a tool, wherever he ended up he would join that team. I found that comic more about demonizing russia and glorifying the states (russia is so bad it would raise superman as a villain).

Iredeemable shows a better story of a superman like character going evil to me, because it shows how underneath this seemingly perfect surface are lots of little problems that eat away at the character until he snaps. The pressure of not being able to save everyone all the time, to not being able to save his mom.
In short his mom goes slowly crazy from raising a kid who can do anything and shoots herself in the head. The plutonian is at school and hears everything happen, but because he was so far away by the time he heard the sounds of it, she was already dead.
 

UnmotivatedSlacker

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Garrett said:
UnmotivatedSlacker said:
Garrett said:
...You've never read a Superman comic in your life have you?
Last sole Superman comic I read was when he still couldn't fly and had to fight this thing from other dimension that he had to made spell its name backwards. For my present look on Superman, please blame people who defend him during Goku vs Superman arguments. According to them he ALWAYS uses only like 5% of his powers so he won't destroy the whole planet and other OP stuff.
Also -> http://superman.wikia.com/wiki/Superman_Prime
Nah, I'm gonna blame you for letting yourself be swayed by power level arguments and an alternate reality Superman. If you're gonna judge Superman, judge him on his own merits.
 

Cowabungaa

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Relish in Chaos said:
(not to mention?where do you start, with all the fucked-up multiple continuities?)
Stand-alone stories. If you want to know how Superman can be interesting, and I recommend it to everyone in this thread, try Superman: Red Son. It's one of the greatest "what if" stories I've ever read and really well-written.

And that's the problem with Superman; because he has, basically, god-like powers he's really difficult to be made an interesting character. There are some examples like Superman: Red Son that it is possible but you won't see it all that often.
viranimus said:
Supermans depth and ideology boils down to "At all times, do the right thing" and the "right" thing ends up being what the populous sees as right. However that is not the world we live in. Nothing is black and white like that. The old mantra is Superman stands for "Truth, Justice and the American Way" and while in a fictional incarnation of America, that is fine, but in practical application, the "American way" is far from ensuring that Americans are "The good guys".
For you as well; Superman: Red Son. What if Superman crashed in the Soviet Union instead of the USA? Really good story.
 

Spencer Petersen

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I think Superman is at his best when the movie is more about the nature of power and balance in the world and how an all powerful being can cause more harm then good. I feel a good place to take Superman is the same way a lot of the best Next Generation episodes went about non-interference through the Prime Directive.

Superman is such an unbalancing force that his involvement makes almost all the other factors mean nothing. The movie could make this a central theme where his continued involvement starts affecting the city and possibly other heroes in an unforeseen negative way. They would probably want to ease into this and go full throttle when they start building the universe but Superman isn't interesting when you try to make him vulnerable, as it goes against his entire archetype. This sounds very Dr. Manhattan-esque, but I feel they could make it work with Superman feeling tormented about wanting to help but knowing its better if he doesn't.

Then again I don't read Superman comics so maybe its been done already, but I feel its the best possible option rather than give him more vulnerabilities to base a narrative around.
 

GiantRaven

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I think part of the problem with Superman is that beyond Grant Morrison's All-Star Superman and Action Comics run, people have seemingly run out of things to say about the character. The Superman comics have been treading water for a long time now. It's either the same old stories, or attempts at new stories that are complete nonsense.

Kordie said:
Would you clasify Alfred as a superpowered for making all of batman's gear?
Wut? When did that ever happen?
 

Lugixx

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Vausch said:
Kordie said:
The_Blue_Rider said:
And that in the end, even the mightiest of us are still human.
Except he isn't. Don't get me wrong, if given the option to become any superhero, Superman is the only right answer. That doesn't make him the "best" from a story telling point of view. Because Superman can literally do anything he becomes a very boring character. Characters need flaws to be interesting, they need weaknesses to overcome, an arc that ends with them as a better person. Superman doesn't do any of that. His arcs are usually the opposite, he has to lose his powers then get back to where he was at the start.

A way more interesting character is the Plutonian. If you are unfamiliar, he is pretty much superman with one distinct difference. He snapped. He just lost it, and started to ruin shit. Even as a bad guy, he is way more relatable than superman will ever be.

*edit* Plutonian Bio [http://www.comicvine.com/plutonian/29-60993/]
IMO Seeing a character like Superman break down and show his flaws makes for a really interesting story. I can also relate to it a lot more knowing that you can never do everything right.
See I don't agree with that, at all. Superman doesn't have to lose his powers in order to make for an interesting story. There are other races and characters in the DCU that are just as powerful as he is and can give him a fight on an even keel. A lot of good stories from Superman tend to arise when he has to question when the right time to use his powers is, and often he worries that if he uses them for too many situations (saving the Earth not withstanding), he'll be viewed as a god and people will stop solving their own problems and become reliant on him. There's other stories like Superman: Red Son where he did abuse his powers too much and wound up becoming a dictator, really the better stories of Superman revolve around his sense of balance between his upbringing with humanity and his Kryptonian abilities.

As for my underrated heroes, Blue Beetle (Jaime Rayes) and Captain Marvel (SHAZAM). Granted I absolutely hate what the reboot did to them since they took away from a lot of the things that made Blue Beetle good (light hearted nature, fun and interesting but still compelling villains, Jaime being smart and just telling his family about his powers so they have more protection from harm by knowing) and Billy Batson went from being the kind-hearted boy scout that would do anything for anybody into a snarky little shit that I can't see the wizard actually giving the powers of SHAZAM, but I always have older comics or I can just wait until DC just says "This is Earth 16 it wasn't really a reboot please love us again!".
The first person to actually get Superman in this thread. He basically put up this façade of being a perfect being to motivate people and to inspire confidence, but is often found struggling with balancing how dependent people become of him versus inspiring them and actually using his powers to protect the people he loves.

Sheesh, guys. I'm mainly a Marvel guy and even I knew that.

Anyway, my underrated heroes: Captain Marvel (SHAZAM now, apparently) because the idea behind him is really interesting and has tons of room to be explored, but DC very rarely put much focus on him. I mean, his last high profile series ended in 1998, and he's not even in the NEW 52 except as a back-up for Justice league. And I won't buy a comic for the back-up.

Moon Knight is another nice one. Essentially a psychotic Batman constantly urged on by a mad moon god to kill all the villains he faces, and he's constantly fighting that urge because of an ideal he barely believes in. Too bad Bendis ruined him.

Also Cable. He hasn't even shown up in Avengers vs X-men yet, when his own daughter is in the middle of it. I'm always hoping he'll recover from Duane Swiercynzski's (or however it's spelled) terrible run, but they never do anything with him since second coming. It's ridiculous.
 

Tanis

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I think one of the best 'Superman being really cool at Superman' is the comic book arc/series "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way?".

If there was any 'easy to get' story of why Superman 'matters', it's probably that one.

Or, maybe 'A Superman For All Seasons'.
 

Vausch

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Lugixx said:
Vausch said:
Kordie said:
The_Blue_Rider said:
And that in the end, even the mightiest of us are still human.
Except he isn't. Don't get me wrong, if given the option to become any superhero, Superman is the only right answer. That doesn't make him the "best" from a story telling point of view. Because Superman can literally do anything he becomes a very boring character. Characters need flaws to be interesting, they need weaknesses to overcome, an arc that ends with them as a better person. Superman doesn't do any of that. His arcs are usually the opposite, he has to lose his powers then get back to where he was at the start.

A way more interesting character is the Plutonian. If you are unfamiliar, he is pretty much superman with one distinct difference. He snapped. He just lost it, and started to ruin shit. Even as a bad guy, he is way more relatable than superman will ever be.

*edit* Plutonian Bio [http://www.comicvine.com/plutonian/29-60993/]
IMO Seeing a character like Superman break down and show his flaws makes for a really interesting story. I can also relate to it a lot more knowing that you can never do everything right.
See I don't agree with that, at all. Superman doesn't have to lose his powers in order to make for an interesting story. There are other races and characters in the DCU that are just as powerful as he is and can give him a fight on an even keel. A lot of good stories from Superman tend to arise when he has to question when the right time to use his powers is, and often he worries that if he uses them for too many situations (saving the Earth not withstanding), he'll be viewed as a god and people will stop solving their own problems and become reliant on him. There's other stories like Superman: Red Son where he did abuse his powers too much and wound up becoming a dictator, really the better stories of Superman revolve around his sense of balance between his upbringing with humanity and his Kryptonian abilities.

As for my underrated heroes, Blue Beetle (Jaime Rayes) and Captain Marvel (SHAZAM). Granted I absolutely hate what the reboot did to them since they took away from a lot of the things that made Blue Beetle good (light hearted nature, fun and interesting but still compelling villains, Jaime being smart and just telling his family about his powers so they have more protection from harm by knowing) and Billy Batson went from being the kind-hearted boy scout that would do anything for anybody into a snarky little shit that I can't see the wizard actually giving the powers of SHAZAM, but I always have older comics or I can just wait until DC just says "This is Earth 16 it wasn't really a reboot please love us again!".
The first person to actually get Superman in this thread. He basically put up this façade of being a perfect being to motivate people and to inspire confidence, but is often found struggling with balancing how dependent people become of him versus inspiring them and actually using his powers to protect the people he loves.

Sheesh, guys. I'm mainly a Marvel guy and even I knew that.

Anyway, my underrated heroes: Captain Marvel (SHAZAM now, apparently) because the idea behind him is really interesting and has tons of room to be explored, but DC very rarely put much focus on him. I mean, his last high profile series ended in 1998, and he's not even in the NEW 52 except as a back-up for Justice league. And I won't buy a comic for the back-up.

Moon Knight is another nice one. Essentially a psychotic Batman constantly urged on by a mad moon god to kill all the villains he faces, and he's constantly fighting that urge because of an ideal he barely believes in. Too bad Bendis ruined him.

Also Cable. He hasn't even shown up in Avengers vs X-men yet, when his own daughter is in the middle of it. I'm always hoping he'll recover from Duane Swiercynzski's (or however it's spelled) terrible run, but they never do anything with him since second coming. It's ridiculous.
You're not missing much for SHAZAM. I'm happy Billy Batson appears to be going through a character arc and little bits of his old personality are shining through, but at the same time most of his dialogue is making me want to smack him upside the head. I'm seriously hoping this is the editors' fault and not Geoff Johns revealing he has a second hero he can't write.
 

Kordie

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Golan Trevize said:
If you (or me for that matter) lived in the same world as Tony Stark you'll most likely be another guy running for his life at the sight of any super powered being. And now that I think of it, Clark Kent has a job, Tony Stark is the head of a multi million dollar corporation, Clark Kent was raised by normal people, Tony Stark wasn't. Kent can identify with a regular guy since he has a regular job, was raised by regular people and most likely has to take the bus just like you and I, Tony on the other hand has a lifestyle that has nothing in common with yours and mine and is so smart that he might as well be an alien or a computer.
You can realate to Superman because he has a job and parents, while Tony Stark has a different job and different parents? Tony Stark has flaws, he struggles with addiction and is a narcisistic egomaniac. I can relate to both of those having dealt with alcoholism in the past and being fairly full of myself. I can also relate to his life with his dad as he was raised by a dad who was more into his work than being a parent. Further I can relate to how he fell into his life mostly following in his dads footsteps with his dads company. That there is direct links to how I can relate to Tony Stark personally, and I am willing to bet others could too.

As for Supermans job/parents, let's not forget that he is an orphan and the Clarks are not his real parents. Second his job at the daily planet is one that he is rediculously over qualified for, and his whole life is related to acting pathetic so no one suspects who he is. Everything about Clark Kent's life is fake and hollow, I can't find anything there to relate to.
 

Fiad

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I could never really get into Superman, he is so insanely strong that no body can beat him. Despite the fact that you know the good guy will always win, there is still the chance that other heroes can be taken down. Though he does have a few badass moments. Like the world of cardboard speech, but that is against one of the few people who even stands a bit of a chance against him.

 

Kordie

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GiantRaven said:
I think part of the problem with Superman is that beyond Grant Morrison's All-Star Superman and Action Comics run, people have seemingly run out of things to say about the character. The Superman comics have been treading water for a long time now. It's either the same old stories, or attempts at new stories that are complete nonsense.

Kordie said:
Would you clasify Alfred as a superpowered for making all of batman's gear?
Wut? When did that ever happen?
Quick quote from his wiki page...
"Current issues of the various Batman comics seem to indicate that Alfred is a pioneer in and has also mastered several fields of rose breeding (even creating his own, the "Pennyworth Blue"), computer programming, computer engineering, electrical engineering, chemical engineering, mechanical engineering, nanotechnology, and biotechnology as he singlehandedly builds, programs, and maintains much of Batman's next-generational technology such as the Batcomputer.[Comics 12]"
Depending on the series Alfred also has a history as a spy/SAS/field medic.
 

Syzygy23

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The_Blue_Rider said:
I like Superman because he's a character that by all rights should be a god, but chooses to walk among us. He could be a king, but he chooses to serve us. He could take all he wanted with his power, but he chooses to give instead.
Superman teaches us that if you have power, you should use it to protect people, that you should always do the right thing. And that in the end, even the mightiest of us are still human.
Actually, I think he knows better because everyone knows his weakness by now and have developed Kryptonite weapons to deal with him should he ever get out of hand.
 

Garrett

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UnmotivatedSlacker said:
Nah, I'm gonna blame you for letting yourself be swayed by power level arguments and an alternate reality Superman. If you're gonna judge Superman, judge him on his own merits.
Then show me his merits. I'm not exactly going to start reading comics about a character I didn't like even in his non-OPed version. I have no reason not to believe people who claim they read almost everything Superman while throwing various titles in conversation. Also, alternate realities are pretty big thing in DC.
 

Dreadjaws

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One of the reasons he's disliked is because people have still in mind the Silver Age version of him. Even though for every other character people think in their current form (for instance, when discussing Batman people will talk about the dark-brooding version and few will say they like him for how he dances the Batusi and onomato-punches people). Case in point: people in this thread keep saying how he's invincible and only has one weakness, which couldn't be further from the truth. Heck, he's probably easier to kill than Wolverine.

Every character once in a while gets updated to keep up with modern times. If people can accept that for everyone else, why do they keep Superman locked in the 1970's pen?

Another reason is that people are not objective when comparing the stories. When every superhero succeeds, either Superman or any other, it's not because they're all-powerful, but because the writers are. How many times have heroes survived out of convenience rather than skill? How many times Batman or Spider-Man have survived because their foes decide to capture them and distractedly give them a speech instead of just kill them? Why no one uses a sniper rifle to blow the Punisher's head off? In those cases, the heroes' skills mean nothing: they survive because the story demands it. Superhero stories are supposed to keep them alive, Superman stories are the only ones that don't try to pretend otherwise.

Furthermore, I don't think Superman is anywhere less realistic than, say, The Hulk or The Flash. Even though their stories involve a human gaining abilities through an accident rather than being an extraterrestrial with a convenient human shape, you have to admit those are pretty outrageous accidents. Even Stan Lee himself, while discussing The Hulk's origins, admitted he couldn't "tell a gamma ray from an eggplant", but he wrote the story that way because "it sounds good".

Thing is, pseudo-science might sound more realistic than magic or alien powers, but it isn't. You can't expect us to honestly believe Spider-Man is more realistic than Thor, because while Spidey's might sound like a legit origin for people who know absolutely nothing about science, it definitely isn't. Heck, even outside the origin things don't ring true, as someone with the proportionate agility and strenght of a spider would be weaker than a normal person.

It all boils down to the stories, and if you're going to only consider those stories in which Superman stops a couple of thugs from robbing a jewelry store and those in which Spider-Man has to come to grips with his best friend being into drugs and turning into a supervillain, you're being absolutely unfair. Either you pick good stories for both or you pick bad stories for both.

Honestly, people keep saying how being Superman is too easy, while I think it's really hard. Not only he has to deal with overcoming the temptation of having so much power and not using it for evil, but also with keeping himself at bay in order not to accidentally hurt someone. Try to kill a fly on a glass table with a sledgehammer without breaking the table and see how easy it goes. Now imagine your entire life being like that.

Also, I happen to like heroes who help people because they honestly want to and not because they feel guilty or because they're forced by the circumstances. Sure, the latter might be more relatable, but who's better to look up to?
 

Lugixx

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Vausch said:
You're not missing much for SHAZAM. I'm happy Billy Batson appears to be going through a character arc and little bits of his old personality are shining through, but at the same time most of his dialogue is making me want to smack him upside the head. I'm seriously hoping this is the editors' fault and not Geoff Johns revealing he has a second hero he can't write.
Yeah, I figured as much. Hopefully I can just pick the real book up with normal Billy from the start :)

Is it strictly an origin story, or do we get some other insight on people like Black Adam?

EDIT: I should probably say something about the ill-conceived notions of superheroes to stay on topic.

Aquaman is one of them who's treated especially harshly, just because of a bad cartoon and a (shudder) family guy joke. You just have to dig deeper to understand (or in Aquaman's case, just pick up basically ANY comicbook with him). You could simplify anything to such a degree that it seems ridiculous, but comicbooks often get the short end of the shaft because there's this notion that you have to be extraordinarily familiar with the previous stories to understand them, which is simply untrue in most cases. Therefore people seems quite content with not delving deeper into the characters and universes, and the notion prevails. It's like if no one but a small group cared about Lovecraft, and everyone just made fun of them being giant space squids :p
 

Aurora Firestorm

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Superman has power creep out the wazoo. I mean, he has one weakness, and a character is really boring unless he has weaknesses. This one weakness has to be rehashed over and over in different ways, to convince readers that there is any sort of threat to him. He's too powerful for his own good.
 

The_Waspman

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Truth be told, I was never into comics as a child, especially not all the Marvel/DC stuff. and I'm still not really into them. Sure, I've read the odd arc, but, I dunno... Characters like Superman, Wonder Woman, X-Men and probably moreso than any others Spiderman I didn't really see the appeal in.

So I'd like to throw in my 'underappreciated' vote for Witchblade. And not just because Sara Pezzini has big knockers. Sure, Witchblade went through a bit of a rough patch from around about issues 22-80, but after that it actually got really really good. Most of the time.

Back on topic...

I, like most people here, thought of Superman as dull because of his huge volume of godlike powers. But I'm always one to give a character a chance, so I read the first two arcs of Superman/Batman. It helped me to understand the character a little more, well, both of them actually, and how they relate to each other. Superman does have his flaws, mainly because - despite his upbringing - he isn't human and cant totally understand what it means to be human. He's actually alone (well, until Kara shows up) and always will be, kinda like if one of us was doomed to live amongst ants for the rest of our lives.
 

theultimateend

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Kordie said:
Except he isn't. Don't get me wrong, if given the option to become any superhero, Superman is the only right answer. That doesn't make him the "best" from a story telling point of view.
Professor X could kill Superman instantly >_>.

I mean, Superman has the most invulernabilities but as far as I'm aware any powerful psychic could end him instantly.

If I had to choose someone I'd be Mr. Fantastics son, the kid can mold reality.

Aurora Firestorm said:
Superman has power creep out the wazoo. I mean, he has one weakness, and a character is really boring unless he has weaknesses. This one weakness has to be rehashed over and over in different ways, to convince readers that there is any sort of threat to him. He's too powerful for his own good.
You forgot the other weakness:

Aliens all over the universe are stronger than him.

He's only inhuman by human standards, against other aliens (or even some human heroes) he's chump change.

But he is ridiculously powerful, reflective of the era he was released in.
 

Vausch

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Lugixx said:
Vausch said:
You're not missing much for SHAZAM. I'm happy Billy Batson appears to be going through a character arc and little bits of his old personality are shining through, but at the same time most of his dialogue is making me want to smack him upside the head. I'm seriously hoping this is the editors' fault and not Geoff Johns revealing he has a second hero he can't write.
Yeah, I figured as much. Hopefully I can just pick the real book up with normal Billy from the start :)

Is it strictly an origin story, or do we get some other insight on people like Black Adam?
So far it's just been origin and there hasn't been any actual "SHAZAM!"-ing in the issues I read. Billy got adopted by a family and got a sister named Mary, a brother named Freddy, and a few others that I'm guessing are the modern equivalents to Fat Marvel, Hill Marvel, and Tall Marvel. I haven't seen Black Adam yet.

To say the least I did like when Billy confronted some bullies that were picking on his new family and fought them only to get blamed for it when they hit him first, it showed him willing to stand up for his new family, but he's still leagues away from the old Billy. I hate being a Superboy Prime but that felt like a character that didn't need changing so I don't know why they did it.
 

Lugixx

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Vausch said:
Lugixx said:
Vausch said:
You're not missing much for SHAZAM. I'm happy Billy Batson appears to be going through a character arc and little bits of his old personality are shining through, but at the same time most of his dialogue is making me want to smack him upside the head. I'm seriously hoping this is the editors' fault and not Geoff Johns revealing he has a second hero he can't write.
Yeah, I figured as much. Hopefully I can just pick the real book up with normal Billy from the start :)

Is it strictly an origin story, or do we get some other insight on people like Black Adam?
So far it's just been origin and there hasn't been any actual "SHAZAM!"-ing in the issues I read. Billy got adopted by a family and got a sister named Mary, a brother named Freddy, and a few others that I'm guessing are the modern equivalents to Fat Marvel, Hill Marvel, and Tall Marvel. I haven't seen Black Adam yet.

To say the least I did like when Billy confronted some bullies that were picking on his new family and fought them only to get blamed for it when they hit him first, it showed him willing to stand up for his new family, but he's still leagues away from the old Billy. I hate being a Superboy Prime but that felt like a character that didn't need changing so I don't know why they did it.
So far the NEW 52 just feels like change for the sake of change. Don't get me started what they're doing to Tim Drake and Barbara Gordon.