Superman gets too much shit (And underrated heroes in general)

[Saltarius]

These two guys.

Spoiler: RED/GREEN REPRESENT!

 

[IDS3Remix]

That's why I said both being able to fly and do whatever superman does and being able to build the damn armor are superpowers. As in, as you said, both don't exist in real life.

Would you clasify Alfred as a superpowered for making all of batman's gear? There is a difference between having a super power and using technology. It is the same way that batman has no powers but he uses technology. In the comic universe, Tony already has access to all the pre-requisite technology. If you want to make the argument that his intelect is a super power, that is a different story (mind you one I would still debate). But inventing a power suit is not a super power.

Ok, wait a sec. Let me see if I get this straight, flying guy who shoots lasers is a superpower but guy who builds something out of whatever the writer of the week decides is possible to build is not?

My two cents, I would not consider Iron Man to have any super powers, nor would I say Batman has any. They're just people making the use of technology the best way that they can, though I hold Batman in higher regards, as I feel like Iron Man is more or less in the most compact Gundam ever created.

 

[Kordie]

That's why I said both being able to fly and do whatever superman does and being able to build the damn armor are superpowers. As in, as you said, both don't exist in real life.

Would you clasify Alfred as a superpowered for making all of batman's gear? There is a difference between having a super power and using technology. It is the same way that batman has no powers but he uses technology. In the comic universe, Tony already has access to all the pre-requisite technology. If you want to make the argument that his intelect is a super power, that is a different story (mind you one I would still debate). But inventing a power suit is not a super power.

Ok, wait a sec. Let me see if I get this straight, flying guy who shoots lasers has superpowers but guy who builds something out of whatever the writer of the week decides is possible to build has not?

Correct. The simple fact that other people can (and do) make similar suits in the Ironman universe is evidence that the suit itself is no special accomplishment. Further, that anyone can use the suit is also evidence that there is nothing special about it's relationship with Tony Stark. Saying it is a super power to put it together is like saying the first person to develop a smart phone was super powered for putting all those capabilities in one device.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

The film Super man tends to be what I call perfect super man and frankly he tends to be so perfect that its hard to make a really great story, you can make a decent film and I did like Returns it just was well kinda bland but you get that with perfect superman.

I'd rather them do a Super man based off the 90's cartoon Superman he can get knocked around by explosives, pushed back by heavy guns, can't breath in space/water or hold his breath nearly indefinably. Flaws make for more interesting situations.

 

[Vausch]

And that in the end, even the mightiest of us are still human.

Except he isn't. Don't get me wrong, if given the option to become any superhero, Superman is the only right answer. That doesn't make him the "best" from a story telling point of view. Because Superman can literally do anything he becomes a very boring character. Characters need flaws to be interesting, they need weaknesses to overcome, an arc that ends with them as a better person. Superman doesn't do any of that. His arcs are usually the opposite, he has to lose his powers then get back to where he was at the start.

A way more interesting character is the Plutonian. If you are unfamiliar, he is pretty much superman with one distinct difference. He snapped. He just lost it, and started to ruin shit. Even as a bad guy, he is way more relatable than superman will ever be.

*edit* Plutonian Bio [http://www.comicvine.com/plutonian/29-60993/]
IMO Seeing a character like Superman break down and show his flaws makes for a really interesting story. I can also relate to it a lot more knowing that you can never do everything right.

See I don't agree with that, at all. Superman doesn't have to lose his powers in order to make for an interesting story. There are other races and characters in the DCU that are just as powerful as he is and can give him a fight on an even keel. A lot of good stories from Superman tend to arise when he has to question when the right time to use his powers is, and often he worries that if he uses them for too many situations (saving the Earth not withstanding), he'll be viewed as a god and people will stop solving their own problems and become reliant on him. There's other stories like Superman: Red Son where he did abuse his powers too much and wound up becoming a dictator, really the better stories of Superman revolve around his sense of balance between his upbringing with humanity and his Kryptonian abilities.

As for my underrated heroes, Blue Beetle (Jaime Rayes) and Captain Marvel (SHAZAM). Granted I absolutely hate what the reboot did to them since they took away from a lot of the things that made Blue Beetle good (light hearted nature, fun and interesting but still compelling villains, Jaime being smart and just telling his family about his powers so they have more protection from harm by knowing) and Billy Batson went from being the kind-hearted boy scout that would do anything for anybody into a snarky little shit that I can't see the wizard actually giving the powers of SHAZAM, but I always have older comics or I can just wait until DC just says "This is Earth 16 it wasn't really a reboot please love us again!".

 

[mattttherman3]

Well from what I've seen in the New 52, Superman isn't as strong as he used to be, he wears ARMOR now, so perhaps that will make it more interesting in future story arcs.

 

[Kordie]

That's why I said both being able to fly and do whatever superman does and being able to build the damn armor are superpowers. As in, as you said, both don't exist in real life.

Would you clasify Alfred as a superpowered for making all of batman's gear? There is a difference between having a super power and using technology. It is the same way that batman has no powers but he uses technology. In the comic universe, Tony already has access to all the pre-requisite technology. If you want to make the argument that his intelect is a super power, that is a different story (mind you one I would still debate). But inventing a power suit is not a super power.

Ok, wait a sec. Let me see if I get this straight, flying guy who shoots lasers has superpowers but guy who builds something out of whatever the writer of the week decides is possible to build has not?

Well, yes. Doing the impossible is a superpower, doing the possible is not.

But is only possible inside the comic, you said that both Batman and Ironman show the potential for a person to become great, but those things are as impossible outside the comic as what Superman does. They are only human because the authors said that they are, but in truth you can relate to them as much as you can relate to heroes that are aliens or gods or whatever superheroes are supposed to be.

The point I was making is not that it was practical for any person to become batman or ironman, it's that in their world it is possible for anyone to be them. Anyone can be batman, and the hood has changed heads a few times showing that. The only thing really stopping anyone else from wearing the Ironman suit specificaly is Tony's ego, and yet we still have war machine. War machine is another example of a person with no powers being awesome. These heros are just people being extraordinary, and that is what I look up to and can. Compared to superman who is just simply super. Through no effort of his own, he just has powers because hes a kryptonian on earth.

 

[Yopaz]

Superman might have the same depth as any other character, I don't really know nor do I think any superhero really got that much depth. However Superman is perfect. Only one weakness and besides that he can't be beaten, he's a nice guy, helpful, intelligent. There are no flaws in his personality, his appearance. There's also the fact that his disguise is that he's not wearing glasses. He must be the only person in the world that gets away with a secret identity by showing his face more.

 

[4173]

Too few writers can be sentimental rather than sappy. That's why Superman gets so much ridicule.


Obligatory All-Star Superman mention, yadda yadda.

 

[Sparrow]

And that in the end, even the mightiest of us are still human.

Except he isn't. Don't get me wrong, if given the option to become any superhero, Superman is the only right answer. That doesn't make him the "best" from a story telling point of view. Because Superman can literally do anything he becomes a very boring character. Characters need flaws to be interesting, they need weaknesses to overcome, an arc that ends with them as a better person. Superman doesn't do any of that. His arcs are usually the opposite, he has to lose his powers then get back to where he was at the start.

And this is where all of Superman's undeserved hate comes from. I can guarantee half the people who say this haven't read any of his comics.

Superman, like Batman, is far more interesting when it's not about him overcoming some threat that you know he can totally just punch in the face. The most interesting stories involving Superman are the ones that deal with his ideals and his personality.

Red Son is the perfect example of this. In Red Son Superman's powers are essentially used for evil, for communism. He's taught to use them for things the American Supes never world. He essentially enslaves the world to eradicate crime.

Superman vs The Elite is another good example of this. Superman is cast aside by the public in favour of heroes who kill villians, as the people think their method of dealing with crime is the only proper solution. Superman has to deal with the public supporting something he believes is evil, which essentially makes Superman ask himself whether he exists to serve the people or whether he exists to do good regardless of public opinion.

Speeding Bullets is a story in which Bruce Wayne was never born, and Kal-El lands in Gotham instead of Smallvile. Even though he calls himself Superman, he dresses and acts just like Batman. The point of the story is to ask whether or not Superman would still treat crime the same, even if he was raised in such an evil environment as Gotham.

And then there's All-Star Superman. There are a bunch of great examples of what I'm talking about in All-Star Superman, but my favourite is Superman dealing with the death of Pa Kent. His adoptive father suffers a heart attack, and Superman suddenly faces the one thing he can't beat by punching it in the face: natural death. What's even better about this story is the fact that Superman has to travel back in time to watch this event take place for the second time and can't interfere even though he could have saved his father. He's just got to sit back and watch as he loses a second father for the second time

I can sit here and quote examples all day, but my main point is that Superman's lack of flaws is his flaw. He's held to great standards, and yet time and time again he's knocked down a few pegs and shown that even though he's the strongest person in the universe there are still some things he can never beat. And THAT is why he's a great character.

 

[Hattingston]

I don't care for Superman for basically the reasons you said that you liked him. He's basically a god, who's perfect in every way. Part of the reason I like Batman is because he's flawed, his psyche is so jacked up that he attempts to impersonate his greatest fear to scare others. Tony Stark is interesting because he's not an angel, he drinks, sleeps around, and can be a bit of a douche in general. Superman is just perfect. There's absolutely nothing wrong with him, he's a great guy. And that's why his comics aren't fun to read.

 

[gwilym101]

The problem with superman is that he can only have two enemies who seriously threaten him, either fellow people who are insanely over-powered, or billionaires who can either block out the sun or afford a element that only exists on a now destroyed planet that renders supermans powers obsolete, also, his disguise is terrible, he wears glasses and suddenly who the hell is that guy?

The main explanations for people not realise CK is superman I've heard is A) He acts completely different as Clark Kent, so people don't realise. But the better one I've heard is B) Superman doesn't wear a mask like other superheroes, so people don't think he has a secret identity at all.

Personally the only really good superman stories i've seen are ones where he's becoming superman, like Smallville, or alternate origin stories. So he's more relatable but still has all the powers.

Also most of the films don't challenge supermans idealogy, they never really put him in a situation were the easiest option would be to simply kill someone. Hopefully Man of Steel wil change that as he's fighting Zod and co. the others it's just a "Save the innocents!" job, rather than a "You'll have to kill me, to stop me" and then finding a way around that.

 

[Kordie]

snip

While I will admit that I have not read a lot of superman comics, I have read some of those mentioned. It may be personal taste for me, but I find if the rest of the universe has to change to show an interesting story about your character, than the character is not that special for me.

To compare, thats why I found Red Son boring, but love the iredeemable series. In red son, they have to alter the world superman exists in to see how superman could be evil. To me I see that as superman not being special. It turns him from a character to a tool, wherever he ended up he would join that team. I found that comic more about demonizing russia and glorifying the states (russia is so bad it would raise superman as a villain).

Iredeemable shows a better story of a superman like character going evil to me, because it shows how underneath this seemingly perfect surface are lots of little problems that eat away at the character until he snaps. The pressure of not being able to save everyone all the time, to not being able to save his mom.

Spoiler: story time

In short his mom goes slowly crazy from raising a kid who can do anything and shoots herself in the head. The plutonian is at school and hears everything happen, but because he was so far away by the time he heard the sounds of it, she was already dead.

 

[UnmotivatedSlacker]

-snip-

...You've never read a Superman comic in your life have you?

Last sole Superman comic I read was when he still couldn't fly and had to fight this thing from other dimension that he had to made spell its name backwards. For my present look on Superman, please blame people who defend him during Goku vs Superman arguments. According to them he ALWAYS uses only like 5% of his powers so he won't destroy the whole planet and other OP stuff.
Also -> http://superman.wikia.com/wiki/Superman_Prime

Nah, I'm gonna blame you for letting yourself be swayed by power level arguments and an alternate reality Superman. If you're gonna judge Superman, judge him on his own merits.

 

[Cowabungaa]

(not to mention?where do you start, with all the fucked-up multiple continuities?)

Stand-alone stories. If you want to know how Superman can be interesting, and I recommend it to everyone in this thread, try Superman: Red Son. It's one of the greatest "what if" stories I've ever read and really well-written.

And that's the problem with Superman; because he has, basically, god-like powers he's really difficult to be made an interesting character. There are some examples like Superman: Red Son that it is possible but you won't see it all that often.

Supermans depth and ideology boils down to "At all times, do the right thing" and the "right" thing ends up being what the populous sees as right. However that is not the world we live in. Nothing is black and white like that. The old mantra is Superman stands for "Truth, Justice and the American Way" and while in a fictional incarnation of America, that is fine, but in practical application, the "American way" is far from ensuring that Americans are "The good guys".

For you as well; Superman: Red Son. What if Superman crashed in the Soviet Union instead of the USA? Really good story.

 

[Spencer Petersen]

I think Superman is at his best when the movie is more about the nature of power and balance in the world and how an all powerful being can cause more harm then good. I feel a good place to take Superman is the same way a lot of the best Next Generation episodes went about non-interference through the Prime Directive.

Superman is such an unbalancing force that his involvement makes almost all the other factors mean nothing. The movie could make this a central theme where his continued involvement starts affecting the city and possibly other heroes in an unforeseen negative way. They would probably want to ease into this and go full throttle when they start building the universe but Superman isn't interesting when you try to make him vulnerable, as it goes against his entire archetype. This sounds very Dr. Manhattan-esque, but I feel they could make it work with Superman feeling tormented about wanting to help but knowing its better if he doesn't.

Then again I don't read Superman comics so maybe its been done already, but I feel its the best possible option rather than give him more vulnerabilities to base a narrative around.

 

[GiantRaven]

I think part of the problem with Superman is that beyond Grant Morrison's All-Star Superman and Action Comics run, people have seemingly run out of things to say about the character. The Superman comics have been treading water for a long time now. It's either the same old stories, or attempts at new stories that are complete nonsense.

Would you clasify Alfred as a superpowered for making all of batman's gear?

Wut? When did that ever happen?