Superman gets too much shit (And underrated heroes in general)

[Xanadu84]

The problem is that as a super hero fighting bad guys, he is terrible. He is invincible and unbeatable unless there's a plot contrivance that stops him dead. It's all very bianary and dull. If there IS someone who can match him in a fight, then it just feels tonally dissonant with the IDEA of superman. For action scenes, he is just awkward, wildly inconsistent, and outdated.

But as a concept, as an icon, as the personification of an ideal, he works pretty well.

Superman has unlimited power. He can do whatever he wants. Whats interesting is when he struggles not with an equal power, but with what to DO with that power. Maybe he can do anything, but what if he can't do 2 things at once? What if 1 excludes the other? What if the situation comes up where its a matter of anothers free will, not his personal capacity? What if he can do anything, but the scope of sight, intelligence, and understanding limits his ability to use that power in a meaningful way? Then, you can introduce concepts like Kryptonite, or maybe even an occasional Doomsday, to explore other themes of ultimate, god-like power within a mortal framework while still feeling true to the theme of Superman bein a god-like being. That kind of storytelling is cool, and why the idea of books like, "Red Son", I find very intriguing. But once he is just matching his strength against another bad guy and they have to duke it out, it just feels like a really outdated, unimaginative power fantasy.

I think that the best line to challenge Superman with is actually the line that Joker uses on Batman. "You have nothing, nothing to threaten me with! Nothing to do with all your strength!". Oppose Superman with raw strength, and the story gets dull. But put him in a situation where his strength can't save the day directly, he gets interesting again. I think that that's why Superman both gets tossed out as boring, and yet still remains such an icon. He just needs to be in the right kind of story.

 

[theultimateend]

My two cents, I would not consider Iron Man to have any super powers, nor would I say Batman has any. They're just people making the use of technology the best way that they can, though I hold Batman in higher regards, as I feel like Iron Man is more or less in the most compact Gundam ever created.

Super Human Brilliance is a super power.

These two are smart on a tier above most of the brightest minds in human history (if not all of them).

I dont' know much about Alfred but if he was building most of the stuff he falls into the group.

 

[Soxafloppin]

To be honest 90% of people who talk shit about Superman have never read a Superman comic.

Anyone who says hes overpowered probably doesn't know that many Super-heros.

 

[hermes]

Superman has power creep out the wazoo. I mean, he has one weakness, and a character is really boring unless he has weaknesses. This one weakness has to be rehashed over and over in different ways, to convince readers that there is any sort of threat to him. He's too powerful for his own good.

I think you are thinking of silver age superman (which is pretty close to the live-action movies version).

Nowadays (post Crisis), not only he is not the most powerful character in the DC Universe, but he is extremely vulnerable to magic and psychic powers -which, considering the world has more meta-humans than you can shake a stick at, is a rather large population. I mean, Zatanna, Circe or Etrigan could kill him in less than a second.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Yeah, I have to agree with the being a genius is a superpower. If a superpower is an ability to do something that most other human beings can't do no matter how hard they try, or it's an adaption that others can't achieve, then it's a power.

My problem with people hating Superman because he's a perfect God that's so just is that people aren't understanding a key thing:

He doesn't have to be just.

You give ONE of Superman's powers to most people, and they'll find a way to make it work for them or rule the world. Or take revenge for people who's slighted them. Or who will general abuse them.

Superman has to wrestle day in and day out with why not just kill Luthor? He'll get out. He always does. Supes is a God. What would stop him if he decided Luthor has to go. But he decides, consciously makes the choice to be apart of humanity and live judgement to his peers. Even if the surrounding world will become corrupt, he won't let it happen to him. How well have we all faired with temptation?

To be all powerful and choose to be humble is something you or I could probably not do. That makes him more interesting to me than someone driven by revenge. We all know revenge. It's easy to give into. It's hard to choose a higher path.

And lastly, I don't get Batman love. Because the same people who hate Supes usually love Batman. And while Supes has a reason for always winning, Batman just has Plot and Fan Armor. People don't wonder if Batman is going to lose this one, they just read on to find out how he wins. Batman is more powerful because nor the fans or the writers will let him lose. THAT'S boring.

 

[ZZoMBiE13]

The problem with many of the DC heroes is that they are more archetype than character. It's why the Nolan movies have been so well received. They manage to build some character into him through Bale's acting and Nolan's direction. He's not just the obsessed avenger, he's a person in a tough situation and is far more easy to relate to than some other versions of the Dark Knight.

Supes is great when they build in some character. Look at Smallville. Or at least, Smallville up until the 6th season anyway. It was an amazing show. It had a little too much teen angst melodrama, but it still managed to tell a really great version of the Superman mythos from a unique perspective. Like all shows it eventually got stupid and should probably have quit while it was ahead (i.e. before Lex bailed), but what it did right was make Clark Kent the main character, not unbeatable Superman.

There are great Superman stories yet to be told. And I have a lot of hope that a director as talented as Zack Snyder can really bring the character to life. Or at least, if he can't get the character stuff right, he'll make it look badass.

 

[UnmotivatedSlacker]

Nah, I'm gonna blame you for letting yourself be swayed by power level arguments and an alternate reality Superman. If you're gonna judge Superman, judge him on his own merits.

Then show me his merits. I'm not exactly going to start reading comics about a character I didn't like even in his non-OPed version. I have no reason not to believe people who claim they read almost everything Superman while throwing various titles in conversation. Also, alternate realities are pretty big thing in DC.

Don't complain about a character if you're not gonna bother reading up on them. Read stuff like Red Sun, Peace on Earth, Kingdom Come, and For the Man who has Everything to get a decent idea about his character.

And I'm curious, of the people in this thread saying Superman is overpowered and boring, how many of you actually read his comics?

 

[GiantRaven]

So far the NEW 52 just feels like change for the sake of change. Don't get me started what they're doing to Tim Drake and Barbara Gordon.

I'll start for you.

WHERE BE CASS CAIN AND STEPH BROWN LOL? =(

I like a good amount of the new 52 books but I don't understand the complete sidelining (to the point of ridiculousness) of certain fan-favourite characters. There's money to be made there DC, get on it!

But yeah, two characters so underrated that even the company that owns them 'forgets' they exist. -_-

The problem with many of the DC heroes is that they are more archetype than character.

Lots of DC characters have, well, character. What on earth are you talking about?

 

[Garrett]

Don't complain about a character if you're not gonna bother reading up on them. Read stuff like Red Sun, Peace on Earth, Kingdom Come, and For the Man who has Everything to get a decent idea about his character.

And I'm curious, of the people in this thread saying Superman is overpowered and boring, how many of you actually read his comics?

I just read a synopsis for Kingdom Come on wikipedia. How exactly, does surviving (implied) few magical lightnings and ultimately winning a fight with Captain Marvel who is magical when Superman's weakness is magic and then surviving nuclear blast, proves that he is not OPed?

Also, I don't know if you noticed but all I ever claimed is that Superman is way OPed, so I don't care for his morality issues or whatever existential problems he might have.

 

[GiantRaven]

I just read a synopsis for Kingdom Come on wikipedia. How exactly, does surviving (implied) few magical lightnings and ultimately winning a fight with Captain Marvel who is magical when Superman's weakness is magic and then surviving nuclear blast, proves that he is not OPed?

Also, I don't know if you noticed but all I ever claimed is that Superman is way OPed, so I don't care for his morality issues or whatever existential problems he might have.

That was an alternate universe Superman so therefore all rules are subject to change regarding the classic idea of Superman.

A completely irrefutable argument that holds water.

[/blatent lies]

 

[Nadia Castle]

The problem with any DC character to me is that their villains are so much more interesting than the utterly bland heroes. Lex Luthor is genuinely intriguing, basically the best and smartest human on the planet who can't accept that Superman is born better than him. And to be frank, why shouldn't he? Compare the man who works endlessly in his firm (if misguided belief) that he's helping to improve his peoples world, or Superman, the alien who could solve all the worlds problems instantly but would rather spend it walking across America feeling sorry for himself.

The problem is less obvious in Batman, where one again Batman is far less interesting than his villains, but Batman is so messed up that in any other origin story he would BE a super villain. Superman works best when he's a plot device, though no writer would ever be allowed to use such an iconic character in a new way. Seriously the best Superman stories written in the last 20 years were 'Supreme' and 'Irredeemable', both using thinly veiled homages to Superman to explore the idea of an unstoppable hero in an interesting way.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

I like Superman. I haven't read a lot of the books that revolve around him but I do plan on grabbing Red Son and an, All-Star trade or two. Supes isn't my favorite member of the DCU but I do like the guy. As for other heroes I like who haven't been in the lime-light or, heroes who are generally passed over...

I've been trying to keep up with the New 52 Blue Beetle (Jaime Reyes) and would like to get some of the pre-New 52 stuff. I think he's an interesting character (well, Khaji Da) especially in an environment where GLaDOS is so loved, I would think Khaji Da would be enjoyed (or called a less-cynical rip-off).

 

[drh1975]

Hate on Superman all you want, but without him, there would be no Batman, Spider-Man, Iron Man, etc.

 

[Kolby Jack]

Try to kill a fly on a glass table with a sledgehammer without breaking the table and see how easy it goes. Now imagine your entire life being like that.

Best allegory for the difficulty of being Superman I've ever read.

Superman is my second-favorite superhero (Wally West is my favorite). He's an icon, he's awesome, and he's just a really good guy. One of my favorite relationships in the DCU is the one between Superman and Batman. Unless the writer is an idiot (looking at you, Frank Miller), it's generally accepted that Superman and Batman are best friends. Both hold a deep admiration of the other; Superman sees in Batman the great potential of humanity, Batman sees in Superman the ultimate ideal to strive towards. It makes both of them better people, and they trust each other more than most anyone else. One of the good things the reboot seems to have kept is that dynamic (Batman commented in an issue of Justice League that he and Superman frequently work together outside of the League, and Superman visited Batman in Action Comics to get advice for his screwy situation of everyone thinking Clark Kent is dead), and thank God for that.

Anyway, as for the most underrated superhero IMO, I'd say Steel fits the bill. He's not exactly unknown or disliked, but he doesn't seem to get the spotlight despite how awesome of a character he is. When Superman was dead for a year, 4 people tried to fill the gap. Of those, only Steel wasn't trying to take his place, but rather carry on his legacy. He represents what Superman's highest hopes for humanity would be; a regular guy (barring the technical genius) inspired by the man of steel and fighting back against the evils of the world. Plus, he's basically the DCU Iron Man (only, ya know, nicer).

 

[UnmotivatedSlacker]

Don't complain about a character if you're not gonna bother reading up on them. Read stuff like Red Sun, Peace on Earth, Kingdom Come, and For the Man who has Everything to get a decent idea about his character.

And I'm curious, of the people in this thread saying Superman is overpowered and boring, how many of you actually read his comics?

I just read a synopsis for Kingdom Come on wikipedia. How exactly, does surviving (implied) few magical lightnings and ultimately winning a fight with Captain Marvel who is magical when Superman's weakness is magic and then surviving nuclear blast, proves that he is not OPed?

Also, I don't know if you noticed but all I ever claimed is that Superman is way OPed, so I don't care for his morality issues or whatever existential problems he might have.

He's not weak to magic, he's just doesn't have any extra defence against it. And you make it sound like there aren't any characters stronger than Superman. Hell that comic you mention reading was about Superman going up against one of the most powerful characters in the DC universe.

 

[Zaik]

Batman is only interesting if you don't look very hard.

When you start reading between the lines, you see a big manchild who still hasn't gotten over his parents being murdered 20 or 30 years later and spends infinity dollars to fight street level crime.

At best, he manages to temporarily delay some crazy people by throwing them into an insane asylum with the worst record of prisoner escapes in the universe. Then when they(of course) escape, he just puts them back in the same asylum again.

POINT IS, you can make anything look dumb if you just point out the flaws.

 

[bjj hero]

I tend to enjoy characters that are fairly grounded so naturally I am a fan of batman. But this is about characters that get to much shit and my second favorite is a sorta half hero half villain sorta guy it depends on who you talk to. I think the Punisher gets to much crap he is often described as bland and one dimensional but realistically he just rarely gets any decent writers. The Enis punisher run is considered one of the best comic runs in history and that is just because he wrote the character properly.

QF-muther-fucking-T!

I love the punisher. A Nam vet with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, too much fire power and a serious score to settle. You cannot help but think that with the proper counselling and help he may well have never chosen his way of life.

I hate Batman and Super man for quite similar reasons. Batman is Ayn Rands wet dream. A multi-billionnaire, upper-class, socialite, industrialist, born into a wealthy family at the top of Gothams elite. Excellent education and destined to carry on with the family fortunes. He then crawls down from his ivory tower at night to terrorise, assault and imprison the mentally ill, the disabled, ethnic minorities, the lower classes and the poor. During the day he gives to the deserving poor. At night he demonstrates why he is superior in every way to the unwashed masses he preys on.

Hes smarter, wealthier, more resourceful and usually physically fitter than his lower class opponents. Its elitism at its finest at a time when in reality social mobility is at an all time low. I also dont buy that hes an expert in criminology, psychology, forensics, interrogation, biology, computer sciences, the list goes on and on. Hes then apparently also an expert in about 15 martial arts a prolific inventor, trained pilot... Hed have to be in his 80's to cram half of it in. I dont buy it. Also, when does he sleep?

All of the earlier stuff about Superman being boring stands for me but more importantly you have to be born Superman. Its like being the Queen. Its the ultimate in elitism.

 

[WolfThomas]

I just read a synopsis for Kingdom Come on wikipedia. How exactly, does surviving (implied) few magical lightnings and ultimately winning a fight with Captain Marvel who is magical when Superman's weakness is magic and then surviving nuclear blast, proves that he is not OPed?

Also, I don't know if you noticed but all I ever claimed is that Superman is way OPed, so I don't care for his morality issues or whatever existential problems he might have.

By just reading the synopsis you do it and yourself a disservice, it's an excellent re-construction (as opposed to de-construction) of the Superhero genre by a writer who knows his topic (Mark Waid). Superman not being OP is not the plot of the story, in fact he's actually far more powerful than his regular incarnation due to culmualative years of yellow sunlight exposure. The story is as you read, about the conflict between generations of superheroes, reflecting the classic heroes of the silver age and the dark ninities anti-heroes (Magog is basically Cable). It deals with all soughts of things, like whether heroes should kill and how much they should influence humanity. BUT yes it's not a great example of how Superman is not overpowered, the only argument it could offer is by showing the vast range of characters on par with him in terms of strenght and power. Superman is good in that as a main character (I think the old guy observing is really the protagonist though).

Also while Superman is weak to magic. People misinterpret this. He is weak to irrational chaotic forces of magic. If someone magics up a fireball and throws it at him, it won't hurt him because he is immune to fire, it being magic doesn't matter. But someone makes him swap bodies with someone, mind controlls him or casts an illusion it will affect him like anybody else.

 

[nightwolf667]

I just read a synopsis for Kingdom Come on wikipedia. How exactly, does surviving (implied) few magical lightnings and ultimately winning a fight with Captain Marvel who is magical when Superman's weakness is magic and then surviving nuclear blast, proves that he is not OPed?

Also, I don't know if you noticed but all I ever claimed is that Superman is way OPed, so I don't care for his morality issues or whatever existential problems he might have.

That was an alternate universe Superman so therefore all rules are subject to change regarding the classic idea of Superman.

A completely irrefutable argument that holds water.

[/blatent lies]

This is mostly the reason why I've never been able to get into Superman, the rules for him change at a moment's notice depending on the setting and on the writer. Particularly, his weakness to magic. After all, Wonder Woman's powers are derived from magic (her armor and lasso). She should be able to wipe the floor with him every time they fight, does that happen? No. If it does, it's not because of magic (and not usually because she's better either). There's the Captain Marvel fight from Kingdom Come, there's also the one from the JLU, though I don't know if the Superman in that has a weakness to magic either. Don't get me wrong, I love Superman in the JLU,(and Kingdom Come, and Red Son, and even for moments in Smallville) but it's the inconsistency with his powers and his weaknesses (particularly in knock out drag out fights) that makes it hard to love him. He needs to do more Super Gardening.

Interestingly enough, I have the same problem caring about Batman. I like him slightly better, because in his own way he's even more ridiculous. (Blasphemy I know!) It makes him fun to watch, but in the same way that Doctor Who is fun to watch. We all know he's going to win in the end, it's just a matter of how will he figure it out and what wacky (doom and gloom, grrr) hijinks will he get into along the way. I like mostly everyone else, likes the BTAS and the JLU, but I've never been able to get into the comics. I also (Blasphemy again!) prefer the Dick Grayson Batman to Bruce. Watching the former sidekick struggle with the gigantic weight of the Batman Legacy was actually very interesting (in a way that was different from Batman Beyond). He's certainly an underrated superhero.

Finally: Batman has superpowers, he's got to, he's much smarter than Mister Terrific. He's as perfect as Superman.

P.S. CASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I can't have Terry take up the Batman Legacy, I'd always thought it would be fun to have it be Cass. (Rather than Damian, Damian only really works as Dick's Robin.) Stephanie Brown is another underrated hero.

 

[bjj hero]

I loved reading 2000AD in my teens. My favourites?

Spoiler: Finn

]

An ex-British soldier, who served in Northern Ireland, turned taxi driver. At night is a White-witch/eco-terrorist fighting aliens. What more can you ask for? He was canned as there were concerns he was too similar to Slaine (BOOOOOO!)

I also loved Sinister Dexter. 2 gunsharks (hitmen) for hire in a cyber punk setting with loads of humour, tonnes of testosterone and bromance before it was cool. One was dressed like a clown, the other like a pimp.

Whats not to like?