Superman gets too much shit (And underrated heroes in general)
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Ya know wat bothers me is that I know people who dislike Superman, and even Captain America for one reason....they are sincere.
They are men with more traditional values and they legitimately believe in goodness and justice....and people mock them for that. It's sad that our society is so cynical that a person actually believeing in right and wrong, an also holding traditional values(and not pushing them on others) makes them unbelievable.
They are men with more traditional values and they legitimately believe in goodness and justice....and people mock them for that. It's sad that our society is so cynical that a person actually believeing in right and wrong, an also holding traditional values(and not pushing them on others) makes them unbelievable.
I don't like Superman for pretty much the reasons mentioned. Difference is at the end of the day, I weigh up the pros and cons and come down in opposition. I don't like that his powers are explained by him being an alien, which is alright in itself, but looklike a bit of a cheap way out when you consider that they look the f***ing same as humans and it is an excuse for being able to do everything under the sun. Secondly, the powers. I like situational powers, or targeted powers, or themed powers, or having to put some effort in. I don't like just "Oh, well, this guy can lift anything, shoot lasers from his eyes, is pretty much invincible, can fly, turns back f***ing time when he really wants..." No. That's just boring. There's no challenge to using his powers and no reason to innovate because he's like a Swiss army knife in a superhero, and we all know that you don't use the knife for writing if there's already a pen. Third, and finally, I just...don't like cheesy, and corny, and saving the day without a care for your own safety like it's just because you're a good guy. Maybe it's migrant work ethic, but I don't buy it as an actual organism that could actually think, and the stupid grin...! that is in that picture of him in the OP exemplifies this.
So f*** Superman, Batman all the way.
PS: I'm reminded of two things I saw in Superman movies. That one time where he has a bomb and he's not going to put it anywhere because there's a band and a family of ducks around. That's not being a nice guy, that's being f***ing irresponsible. I don't want a superhero that's going to risk letting a bomb go off because of a family of ducks, and I think they're adorable. The other time is when there was a factory on fire, and Superman goes to the nearest lake and just blows on it to freeze it, picks it up (by the very f***ing edge, as if it was magic unbreakable ice), then drops it on the factory and...saves the day. Won't sacrifice a few ducks for a bomb, but f*** fish, and everything else in that lake. And of course, it wouldn't just f***ing melt into a giant sprinkler, with a lake, you'd probably crush the factory and everyone in it before you got any decent defrosting happening. It's just so corny that it makes me want to poke my eyeballs out with a fork.
So f*** Superman, Batman all the way.
PS: I'm reminded of two things I saw in Superman movies. That one time where he has a bomb and he's not going to put it anywhere because there's a band and a family of ducks around. That's not being a nice guy, that's being f***ing irresponsible. I don't want a superhero that's going to risk letting a bomb go off because of a family of ducks, and I think they're adorable. The other time is when there was a factory on fire, and Superman goes to the nearest lake and just blows on it to freeze it, picks it up (by the very f***ing edge, as if it was magic unbreakable ice), then drops it on the factory and...saves the day. Won't sacrifice a few ducks for a bomb, but f*** fish, and everything else in that lake. And of course, it wouldn't just f***ing melt into a giant sprinkler, with a lake, you'd probably crush the factory and everyone in it before you got any decent defrosting happening. It's just so corny that it makes me want to poke my eyeballs out with a fork.
But when Magneto and Rogue were dating in the late 90s early 2000, he figured out how to use his magnetism to create a barrier around Rogue that protected him, but also allowed her to feel what is going on. Plus I think other writers came up with using Inhibitor Bands on Rogue when she first dated Gambit so she could have sex with him.Winnosh said:
There is a lot of people on this thread that seem to dislike Superman because of a certain portrayal of him. The character has been around for 80 plus years now- many writers have taken a crack at the last son of Krypton.
Some wrote him boring, some wrote him awesome.In the end it comes down to the originality of the story Superman is in.
I personally love his portrayal in the Justice League cartoons. Even though he was the denfinite heavy hitter of the team (although Martian Manhunter could be considered just as powerful), I loved Superman's interactions with the other heroes. Sure he might have outshined them in some situations (if fact his "superiority" was used as point of conflict within the team), but his clashing with the other characters made it work.
One of the biggest problems with writing good stories for superheroes is that sometimes the story doesn't become about the hero, but what is happening around them- the hero is merely reacting to the events without any stake in the story. This happened a lot in the early Burton/Schmocher Batman films- Batman, as a character, was not nearly as interesting as the villians he faced.
Some wrote him boring, some wrote him awesome.In the end it comes down to the originality of the story Superman is in.
I personally love his portrayal in the Justice League cartoons. Even though he was the denfinite heavy hitter of the team (although Martian Manhunter could be considered just as powerful), I loved Superman's interactions with the other heroes. Sure he might have outshined them in some situations (if fact his "superiority" was used as point of conflict within the team), but his clashing with the other characters made it work.
One of the biggest problems with writing good stories for superheroes is that sometimes the story doesn't become about the hero, but what is happening around them- the hero is merely reacting to the events without any stake in the story. This happened a lot in the early Burton/Schmocher Batman films- Batman, as a character, was not nearly as interesting as the villians he faced.
I'm making my way through her Batgirl series right now and it kicks some serious amounts of ass.nightwolf667 said:
I think the main two reason that so many people disslike superman, or at least so many of the people that disslike him are so vocal about it, is that the two good Superman movies are fairly old and seem to be largely forgotten in all the excitement over the rise of comic book movies while the Batman movies have been more hit than miss (personally I think that except for Batman and Robin, all the Batman movies are pretty good and some of them are pretty excellent) and so Batman was able to steal up the non-comic-fan-but-still-superhero-fan market (which evidently is huge).
Also, Superman is such a major facet of superhero pop-culture that almost everyone has heard a little bit about him, and yet his modern (as in post golden-age) incarnations are rarely mentioned among those who don't read his books frequently, so most non-readers tend to think the Superman is still stuck in his old and unrefined form (kind of like if people who didn't read or watch Batman hated him because they hated the idea of Bat Shark Repellent, even though the character hasn't been that goofy in decades, apart from some more comedic-leaning throwback books).
That's why I'm guessing so many people think Superman is invincible and his only weakness is kryptonite, even though magic, being hit, being hit REALLY hard, mental manipulation and good old fashioned ethical debates all have managed to defeat or at least hurt Superman at one point or another. Superman: Red Son on its own introduced two new weaknesses for Superman; small manilla envelopes with the line "Why don't you put the whole world in a jar" and conversations with ninlth-level intelligences ("He would have talked you into suicide within fourteen minutes") So ya, Superman has weaknesses.
But as for favourite underrated Superheroes, well I love Blue Beetle and Booster Gold, but they aren't exactly underrated, but they still deserve to be far more popular than they are. And obviously Aquaman isn't really that much of a joke like we all love to say he is, but he doesn't count because I maintain that it is more fun to insult Aquaman than it is to read an Aquaman comic. I'm just gonna say that by far the most underrated superhero-comic character is definitely Catman, I mean sure his name is Catman, and his car is called the Catmobile and that's all very dumb, but just read Secret Six and you'll see how much of a badass he really is.
EDIT:
I just realized, probably the most underrated hero I can think of is Robin. I mean everyone loves to make fun of Robin based on how he acted in the Adam West Batman show (even though that was a comedy) and even though most comic fans can agree that Jason Todd was a bit of a whiny punk who deserved what he got, all the other Robins have been pretty good characters. My fave is still Tim Drake just because of all that "Batman needs a Robin" stuff that he stands for, and the fact that he's one of the few detectives on par with Batman, though I really haven't read much of the stuff with Damian Wayne so I can't judge him all too well yet. It always really grates on me when fans of the Nolan-verse talk about how they're so glad that Robin was't put into the story because it would make the movies less "dark" (because Robin NEVER takes part in any dark/gritty/deep Batman stories right?).
Also, Superman is such a major facet of superhero pop-culture that almost everyone has heard a little bit about him, and yet his modern (as in post golden-age) incarnations are rarely mentioned among those who don't read his books frequently, so most non-readers tend to think the Superman is still stuck in his old and unrefined form (kind of like if people who didn't read or watch Batman hated him because they hated the idea of Bat Shark Repellent, even though the character hasn't been that goofy in decades, apart from some more comedic-leaning throwback books).
That's why I'm guessing so many people think Superman is invincible and his only weakness is kryptonite, even though magic, being hit, being hit REALLY hard, mental manipulation and good old fashioned ethical debates all have managed to defeat or at least hurt Superman at one point or another. Superman: Red Son on its own introduced two new weaknesses for Superman; small manilla envelopes with the line "Why don't you put the whole world in a jar" and conversations with ninlth-level intelligences ("He would have talked you into suicide within fourteen minutes") So ya, Superman has weaknesses.
But as for favourite underrated Superheroes, well I love Blue Beetle and Booster Gold, but they aren't exactly underrated, but they still deserve to be far more popular than they are. And obviously Aquaman isn't really that much of a joke like we all love to say he is, but he doesn't count because I maintain that it is more fun to insult Aquaman than it is to read an Aquaman comic. I'm just gonna say that by far the most underrated superhero-comic character is definitely Catman, I mean sure his name is Catman, and his car is called the Catmobile and that's all very dumb, but just read Secret Six and you'll see how much of a badass he really is.
EDIT:
I just realized, probably the most underrated hero I can think of is Robin. I mean everyone loves to make fun of Robin based on how he acted in the Adam West Batman show (even though that was a comedy) and even though most comic fans can agree that Jason Todd was a bit of a whiny punk who deserved what he got, all the other Robins have been pretty good characters. My fave is still Tim Drake just because of all that "Batman needs a Robin" stuff that he stands for, and the fact that he's one of the few detectives on par with Batman, though I really haven't read much of the stuff with Damian Wayne so I can't judge him all too well yet. It always really grates on me when fans of the Nolan-verse talk about how they're so glad that Robin was't put into the story because it would make the movies less "dark" (because Robin NEVER takes part in any dark/gritty/deep Batman stories right?).
If anything, Superman doesn't get enough shit. Look, I'll give him props for being the first Superhero (ignoring, for a moment, that's he's a complete rip off of something that came before [http://www.cracked.com/article_17299_6-famous-characters-you-didnt-know-were-shameless-rip-offs.html])
But even so, he's just a kitchen sink of a man, he's got too many powers, and therefore is just boring. It's like playing a game where God mode is the default and only way to play. His weakness is a kind of metal, which is ridiculously lame.
Good on him for being a product of his time, and finding popularity in his timeframe, but he really does need to just be quietly retired, and make way for more flawed, far more compelling and interesting characters.
But even so, he's just a kitchen sink of a man, he's got too many powers, and therefore is just boring. It's like playing a game where God mode is the default and only way to play. His weakness is a kind of metal, which is ridiculously lame.
Good on him for being a product of his time, and finding popularity in his timeframe, but he really does need to just be quietly retired, and make way for more flawed, far more compelling and interesting characters.
Let me put it this way: Think of Superman as a character in Skyrim, the player as the (collective) reader, the mods like superpowers, and the modders are like the different writers who gave another power to Superman.
At first, Superman was just a really powerful Dovakhiin, which is fine, you're bound to get powerful after playing it for a while. Actually, nah, there's a mod that let's you be like that from the start. Okay I guess. Oh, and here's a cool mod that lets you run ridiculously fast and jump fucking high, let's get that. Oh, and flight? Sign me up. Laser vision? Fuck yeah. And this mod gives me impenetrable armour and infinite stamina... So on and so forth.
Really, Superman's roster of powers is like Skyrim Nexus filled with mods that inexplicably computer-savvy children made, where the writers just install/ uninstall whichever ones they feel like.
I have a friend (that's kind of a weird word to describe our relationship but there you go) who, when he can, mods his games like the above. You know, he just gives himself functionally infinite health, defense, attack, magic, what have you, armour more powerful than the best set in the game (that weighs less than basic clothing), breaks the speed limitations and gravity ain't nothin' but a thang. If it's on a console and he can't mod, he might play a game where the protagonist is already ridiculously strong and just go apeshit on civilians or something. Point is: I have never, not fucking once ever, watched him play that (or anything like that) and thought it looked fun.
How could it be? What's entertaining about winning without effort? Nobody can conceivably touch you. You'll break your triggers attacking before they damage you. Why would you ever play like that? That's why Batman is better than Superman. Drawing more parallels, Batman is like the best sniper in BC2 and Superman is like a guy with a tank modded to be invulnerable, drive faster than anything else and have hitscan shells. The difference is that Batman is the best at what he does, something that requires forethought and finesse and tactic and stealth, whereas Superman is a jackoff with everything.
At first, Superman was just a really powerful Dovakhiin, which is fine, you're bound to get powerful after playing it for a while. Actually, nah, there's a mod that let's you be like that from the start. Okay I guess. Oh, and here's a cool mod that lets you run ridiculously fast and jump fucking high, let's get that. Oh, and flight? Sign me up. Laser vision? Fuck yeah. And this mod gives me impenetrable armour and infinite stamina... So on and so forth.
Really, Superman's roster of powers is like Skyrim Nexus filled with mods that inexplicably computer-savvy children made, where the writers just install/ uninstall whichever ones they feel like.
I have a friend (that's kind of a weird word to describe our relationship but there you go) who, when he can, mods his games like the above. You know, he just gives himself functionally infinite health, defense, attack, magic, what have you, armour more powerful than the best set in the game (that weighs less than basic clothing), breaks the speed limitations and gravity ain't nothin' but a thang. If it's on a console and he can't mod, he might play a game where the protagonist is already ridiculously strong and just go apeshit on civilians or something. Point is: I have never, not fucking once ever, watched him play that (or anything like that) and thought it looked fun.
How could it be? What's entertaining about winning without effort? Nobody can conceivably touch you. You'll break your triggers attacking before they damage you. Why would you ever play like that? That's why Batman is better than Superman. Drawing more parallels, Batman is like the best sniper in BC2 and Superman is like a guy with a tank modded to be invulnerable, drive faster than anything else and have hitscan shells. The difference is that Batman is the best at what he does, something that requires forethought and finesse and tactic and stealth, whereas Superman is a jackoff with everything.
I think a lot of people in this thread are operating off of information from the eighties, and that's kind of disappointing since people these days claim to know so much about this or that, especially on this forum. "He has too many powers, therefore he is shit" is an incredibly superficial thing to say. By that logic, the best superhero of all time is the frakking Phantom, and as long as I'm thinking about it, Billy Zane can suck a dude's dick.
Superman hasn't been the Mary-Sue that everybody thinks he is for at least two decades now. Any superhero story worth its salt forces its stalwart protagonist to stare the very nature of his existence in the face, and Superman is no exception. The best of his stories, most notably the absolutely peerless Kingdom Come(best thing to ever have a DC label on it, Watchmen be damned), are stories about the hows and whys of Superman. Yes, he is arrogant, and yes, his views on the world are incredibly stark to the point of absurd naivete or even delusion, but do you guys honestly think that that can't be taken and run with? I mean, have none of you read Kingdom Come or even All-Star Superman?
And another thing: Batman looked like Adam West for about fifty years before he looked like Christian Bale. A lot of people like to forget that.
Superman hasn't been the Mary-Sue that everybody thinks he is for at least two decades now. Any superhero story worth its salt forces its stalwart protagonist to stare the very nature of his existence in the face, and Superman is no exception. The best of his stories, most notably the absolutely peerless Kingdom Come(best thing to ever have a DC label on it, Watchmen be damned), are stories about the hows and whys of Superman. Yes, he is arrogant, and yes, his views on the world are incredibly stark to the point of absurd naivete or even delusion, but do you guys honestly think that that can't be taken and run with? I mean, have none of you read Kingdom Come or even All-Star Superman?
And another thing: Batman looked like Adam West for about fifty years before he looked like Christian Bale. A lot of people like to forget that.
All of your complaints are generic complaints that could be said of many characters and aren't exclusive to Superman at all, which just further shows you don't really have any context for your arguments. Hell, you cited him being immune or benefiting from kryptonite, which hasn't happened in AGES. The last story I can remember where he became immune was All-Star Superman, and that was because he was dying from too much sun exposure. Hence we arrive back at my original point: don't try to discuss things when you have absolutely none of the context necessary to discuss them. Anybody can skim a wikipedia page, but it doesn't make you knowledgeable. Your context is outdated, your points are generic, and your attempts to appear all "high-ground" are transparent. So really, until you go do some actual research into this topic....NuclearShadow said:
And I know it's not a personal attack because this time I said please!
I just love how you said nobody can beat him, yet you link to a clip from a fight he loses.Fiad said:
I always thought the best way to do characters like Superman would be to put their ideas in a world where ideals there opposed his, at the end of his animated series, he beats darkseid, and leaves him at the mercy of the people he ruled/enslaved, what do they do? They take darkseid away, worshiping him as a god. What's superman to do about it? He doesn't kill, and it is their choice to heal their tyrant, should he forcefully free people that don't want to be freed?
This is a really interesting moral dilemma, and much more interesting than any regular punch up.
"Ya know wat bothers me is that I know people who dislike Superman, and even Captain America for one reason....they are sincere.
They are men with more traditional values and they legitimately believe in goodness and justice....and people mock them for that. It's sad that our society is so cynical that a person actually believeing in right and wrong, an also holding traditional values(and not pushing them on others) makes them unbelievable."
I don't think its that people don't like sincerity, it just doesn't make for good plot. One of the reasons I loved the Ultimates (before they were tragically murdered by Ultimates 3) is that Captain America was a sincere upstanding and honest man.....in the 1940's. In today's social world he might as well have been from Mars. He refused to leave his old neighbour hood and left his door unlocked, when it had become a run down slum. Similarly how would the old god fearing american react to things like homosexuality and mixed race marriages? Even if you were the most liberal man alive in the 40's it would be like suggesting you legalise incest toady.
Why can't Superman feature some of this? The old Kansas farm-boy growing up to be a traditional well rounded man I can understand, but in Metropolis its a whole other world. Its not interesting to have someone saying 'i'm committed to my old fashioned value system, but I will never have a problem with anyone else ever.' I really like the sincere old hero ethic, but mostly because most comic book writers can't seem to write anything that isn't 'a true patriot' without making them the most tedious character alive.
They are men with more traditional values and they legitimately believe in goodness and justice....and people mock them for that. It's sad that our society is so cynical that a person actually believeing in right and wrong, an also holding traditional values(and not pushing them on others) makes them unbelievable."
I don't think its that people don't like sincerity, it just doesn't make for good plot. One of the reasons I loved the Ultimates (before they were tragically murdered by Ultimates 3) is that Captain America was a sincere upstanding and honest man.....in the 1940's. In today's social world he might as well have been from Mars. He refused to leave his old neighbour hood and left his door unlocked, when it had become a run down slum. Similarly how would the old god fearing american react to things like homosexuality and mixed race marriages? Even if you were the most liberal man alive in the 40's it would be like suggesting you legalise incest toady.
Why can't Superman feature some of this? The old Kansas farm-boy growing up to be a traditional well rounded man I can understand, but in Metropolis its a whole other world. Its not interesting to have someone saying 'i'm committed to my old fashioned value system, but I will never have a problem with anyone else ever.' I really like the sincere old hero ethic, but mostly because most comic book writers can't seem to write anything that isn't 'a true patriot' without making them the most tedious character alive.
I reckon Superman is pretty cool. Still prefer Batman by a long shot, but Superman is cool all the same. He's fantastic to play as in Lego Batman 2, because he's not game-breakingly powerful, which seems to be an issue when he shows up to team-based things.
As for underrated heroes, I don't think Nightwing gets enough mainstream attention.
As for underrated heroes, I don't think Nightwing gets enough mainstream attention.
Aquaman is actually really awesome, it's thanks to the shitty cartoon and shows from about 30 years ago that made him seem crap.
This is Aquaman for me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PRJnLBva3w
Hell, his personality is great in the new 52 Justice League.
This is Aquaman for me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PRJnLBva3w
Hell, his personality is great in the new 52 Justice League.
Let me preface my statement with the following: I fucking love Superman.
However, I am of the opinion that Supergirl is far more interesting. I've read 30 issues so far of her 2005 - 2011 run and the sheer gamut of shit the poor lass has put up with; even becoming a domestic abuse victim (no seriously) for a few pages. I mean she fucking drop kicked the guy across a solar system or two in the end, but still. Her adventures in the bottle city of Kandor with Power Girl, a brief crack at being in the Teen Titans and even just fucking it all off. Hell even her New52 run has been getting good ratings, according to comixology anyway. Same with Batman actually, I really dig Nightwing, perhaps more than Batman.
However, I am of the opinion that Supergirl is far more interesting. I've read 30 issues so far of her 2005 - 2011 run and the sheer gamut of shit the poor lass has put up with; even becoming a domestic abuse victim (no seriously) for a few pages. I mean she fucking drop kicked the guy across a solar system or two in the end, but still. Her adventures in the bottle city of Kandor with Power Girl, a brief crack at being in the Teen Titans and even just fucking it all off. Hell even her New52 run has been getting good ratings, according to comixology anyway. Same with Batman actually, I really dig Nightwing, perhaps more than Batman.
Oh my f***ing god it was. Can we just...pretend that was very clever irony, and not me having not slept for 2 days? The second example was still valid...right?Winnosh said:
This is what I get for not being a proper fan and still trying to say things.