Sweden Considering Sexism Labels For Video Games

[immortalfrieza]

If Sweden actually does this it could be a VERY good thing. If there's one thing the endless sexism/racism/whatever issues need it's an official and objective metric as to what is and is not sexism/racism/whatever and if it is to what degree. When something is subjective there isn't a debate to be had, one can go around in circles forever debating it without ever achieving anything, as the fact that we're still all debating this crap after decades and not getting anywhere shows. However, if we have something we can point to and say "this is sexist/racist/whatever and by this much" we might be able to make actual debates and thus real change. In fact, I'd say that the issues of sexism/racism/whatever NEED an objective measure to come to pass if we ever expect to actually make any real progress in them. I don't think it's impossible to take something that's subjective and create an objective metric out of it either, rating systems in general couldn't exist without the ability to do that.

However, that only counts if it's taken seriously and treated fairly by both the ones making it and the public. The ones judging this system could easily be far too lenient or far too restricting about it, and either isn't going to make anything better. Worse, the public might treat it as all one big joke and thus it might not get the power it needs to affect anything or to inspire other countries to follow suit with their own versions.

Not that I'm optimistic at all that this will actually happen or if it did that it would be handled well, I'd say it's far more likely this won't happen and that they'd royally f*** it up if it did happen.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

As if rating systems weren't subjective, debatable and useless enough already.

I'm not going to be one of those idiots that so many people here seem to be pretending exist and say it's the end of everything or this is somehow against men, but this is still dumb.

I'll hold final judgement until the actual system is presented, but I fail to see how this money is being well spent in the slightest.
The "amount of sexism" a game has is one of the most debatable issues in the history of media. Every discussion at every level from random internet forums to high level academics always ends in lengthy arguing with no end in sight. Trying to make it a scientifically quantified amount is an exercise in futility.

Also that Bechdel thing is fucking dumb. I hadn't heard about that previously, but damn. I'm glad I don't live in Sweden.

 

[Alleged_Alec]

Sweden, I used to like you. What's happening to you Sweden?

I've voted left my entire life. Swedish left that is. I'm done. Sweden is slowly descending into madness with our vice prime minister openly blaming EVERYTHING on men, and in a speech before the election said this in regards to men causing global warming, violence and other issues: "But most of us gathered here todayare not men. We are HUMANS".

That's really painful....

If Sweden actually does this it could be a VERY good thing. If there's one thing the endless sexism/racism/whatever issues need it's an official and objective metric as to what is and is not sexism/racism/whatever and if it is to what degree. When something is subjective there isn't a debate to be had, one can go around in circles forever debating it without ever achieving anything, as the fact that we're still all debating this crap after decades and not getting anywhere shows. However, if we have something we can point to and say "this is sexist/racist/whatever and by this much" we might be able to make actual debates and thus real change. In fact, I'd say that the issues of sexism/racism/whatever NEED an objective measure to come to pass if we ever expect to actually make any real progress in them. I don't think it's impossible to take something that's subjective and create an objective metric out of it either, rating systems in general couldn't exist without the ability to do that.

Ehm, what? Something doesn't become objective because we measure it to some subjective measure. If I say that everyone who can bench-press his own weight is strong, I haven't created an objective measure of strength.


EDIT:

This is stupid for many reasons, but wrong for a single one: it's singling out a single media for special treatment. Movies can still be sexist, apparently, and so can books, songs and anything else. But games? No, those need a label saying they're sexist!

 

[josemlopes]

First off, you better put that label on every game because apparently every game is sexist.


Second, did the sexism label really came before the racism label (in the situation that one needed such labels)?

 

[immortalfrieza]

Ehm, what? Something doesn't become objective because we measure it to some subjective measure. If I say that everyone who can bench-press his own weight is strong, I haven't created an objective measure of strength.

Now it's me that has to say "what?" I think you got it backwards? I said take something subjective and create an OBJECTIVE measure out of it!

For example, something that is subjective but was given an objective measure would be things like the ESRB rating system. Some people might think a certain amount of violence is too much or not over the line for say, 10 year olds to view and the ESRB rating system defines exactly what is and what isn't too much violence for 10 year olds to view. People have and will still argue how much violence it and isn't over the line, but the ESRB rating system and ones like it gives a definitive ground to work from, and the same is true with sex, drugs, and so on. Without a system like that in place there's no foundation from which to allow for rules and laws to be put in place to affect things nor anything to inform the consumer exactly what they are getting into when they purchase the product, neither is there something to base any debate on.

What is or isn't sexism/racism/whatever needs a similar system in place or there's no point in debating about any of it in the first place. It's like trying to stand on the surface of the water when it's not frozen, you are going to fall straight through before you can even stand up, but wait until it's frozen, and it's easy.

Maybe it's games that will do this, maybe not, but it needs to happen and with something somewhere before it can.

EDIT:

EDIT:

This is stupid for many reasons, but wrong for a single one: it's singling out a single media for special treatment. Movies can still be sexist, apparently, and so can books, songs and anything else. But games? No, those need a label saying they're sexist!

So? A label like this has to start somewhere, or it'll never happen. I'm pretty sure the ESRB rating system labels didn't just pop up on video game boxes spontaneously, somebody had to have made it and they had to have something to base it on, same with the MPAA rating system. If this happens with video games and proves effects similar systems will no doubt be born out of it for other forms of media but somebody has to be the forerunner or nobody will.

 

[Alleged_Alec]

Now it's me that has to say "what?" I think you got it backwards? I said take something subjective and create an OBJECTIVE measure out of it!

That's not how objective works.

For example, something that is subjective but was given an objective measure would be things like the ESRB rating system. Some people might think a certain amount of violence is too much or not over the line for say, 10 year olds to view and the ESRB rating system defines exactly what is and what isn't too much violence for 10 year olds to view.

Are you trolling? Every label like the ESRB is subjective. Just because people say: "here's a guideline, let's make it into a law" doesn't mean it suddenly transcends subjectivity.

What is or isn't sexism/racism/whatever needs a similar system in place or there's no point in debating about any of it in the first place. It's like trying to stand on the surface of the water when it's not frozen, you are going to fall straight through before you can even stand up, but wait until it's frozen, and it's easy.

Debate on something objective is useless by definition.

Maybe it's games that will do this, maybe not, but it needs to happen and with something somewhere before it can.

No, not really, see above.


EDIT:

This is stupid for many reasons, but wrong for a single one: it's singling out a single media for special treatment. Movies can still be sexist, apparently, and so can books, songs and anything else. But games? No, those need a label saying they're sexist!

So? A label like this has to start somewhere, or it'll never happen. I'm pretty sure the ESRB rating system labels didn't just pop up on video game boxes spontaneously, somebody had to have made it and they had to have something to base it on, same with the MPAA rating system. If this happens with video games and proves effects similar systems will no doubt be born out of it for other forms of media.

But there's no reason for there to be a label like this in the first case.

 

[O maestre]

Guess Sweden's in for social engineering. "This game is socially unacceptable" speaks their bloated Orwellian government and the masses will nod their heads in agreement. Governments moralizing always turns out so well for people who don't fit the mold.

Ha this is kind of apt, due to Swedens history of eugenics.
I don't agree with this policy either, it does seem overreaching.

But to be fair there is high popular demand for ideology in Swedish politics, most grass roots organisations are usually absorbed into the political system and made into legitimate parties, case in point the Swedish feminist party, and the Pirate party.

So how do you judge when it is the government forcing humanism on people, or if it is a government that is pandering to the humanistic masses.

Speaking as a Dane, the general perception of the Swedes are that they are that 80% of them are always seeking the moral high ground. Their political debates are a lot more ideological in nature, where as in Denmark it is a lot more populist, or pragmatic depending on who you ask.
It results in Sweden always seeking the moral high ground on various issues, like being one of the first EU members to recognize Palestine as a state, or their gender and race policies.

I see Swedish politicians as being more earnest than the Danish. Currently we have a nominally red(left) coalition government, that only creates and executes blue(right) policies, up until this very day the leading coalition partner only made deals with the right, and all parties are competing in who can be more xenophobic.
In contrast the latest elections in Sweden showed how Swedish politicians stick to their values, the Red coalition there won, but the the opposition could have won the election if they had cooperated with a racist political party, but their leader refused.
A political leader actually said no to power on the basis of his principles!
Call it social engineering if you will, but I don't think I have heard of a politician with such great conviction in Denmark or anywhere else for that matter. This must be indicative that social narrative is not mere empty rhetoric.
I for one wish we had politicians like Fredrik Reinfeldt in Denmark.


TL;DR
lol social justice warriors, more like social justice vikings!


OT: despite my general admiration for Swedish politics, I don't like this idea, the label will at worst be completely skewered due to their not being an accurate and widely accepted metric to measure 'social injustice' and at best it will be money down the drain as such labels have previously proven to be useless.

 

[lionsprey]

as a swede all i can say is, wow are you guys are taking this seriously? i mean even if it would be passed (currently a non- goverment organisation recieved funding to investigate this) and used in sweden do you honestly belive the rest of the world would give a shit?

as for "or when some of the nation's movie theaters and TV channels began issuing ratings indicating whether or not films being shown passed the so-called "Bechdel Test."" this is the first i have heard of this. any other swedes around to point out what channels/publications actually do this?

 

[themilo504]

I don?t have a issue with this as long as they only label games that are actually sexists, games where the developers go out of their way to show that they consider woman inferior to men, not the sexist that people scream at anything they don?t like resulting in the word losing all meaning.

 

[momijirabbit]

Fuck this.
I'm done with video games.
We have reached the point of complete idiocy and I don't want to be caught in the aftermath.

 

[subskipper]

Guess Sweden's in for social engineering. "This game is socially unacceptable" speaks their bloated Orwellian government and the masses will nod their heads in agreement. Governments moralizing always turns out so well for people who don't fit the mold.

This is indeed it. Hopefully it will not go that far. But I wouldn't put it past them to introduce a branding for political content as well. Obviously I'm being overly cynical, but it wouldn't shock me if they did.

 

[Gluzzbung]

I think this is a good idea, but I hope it doesn't end up with these labels becoming selling points like the gore and blood in some triplA games... okay, most tripleA games.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Now it's me that has to say "what?" I think you got it backwards? I said take something subjective and create an OBJECTIVE measure out of it

That's not how objective works.

Yes it does, or do you think things that are objective just magically started out that way with everybody suddenly agreeing without exception that that's the way things work? No, they were subjective until somebody came along and decided nail down precisely what that something was and get everybody else to agree with that.

One cannot be objective about anything without facts and/or a baseline to base it on, and up until those facts and/or baseline is established EVERYTHING is subjective. A rating system like this can (not likely, but can) provide the baseline needed to make it possible for things like sexism/racism/whatever to be able to be discussed in objective manner, which is what is needed to affect change.

Debate on something objective is useless by definition.

Wrong. Objective means

"(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts."

People can still debate on whether the facts are really "facts", whether they are relevant, or whether those facts are being distorted, misrepresented, or otherwise altered to present a person's point of view. One can debate something objective, otherwise the word "debate" itself would be meaningless.

For example, something that is subjective but was given an objective measure would be things like the ESRB rating system. Some people might think a certain amount of violence is too much or not over the line for say, 10 year olds to view and the ESRB rating system defines exactly what is and what isn't too much violence for 10 year olds to view.

Are you trolling? Every label like the ESRB is subjective. Just because people say: "here's a guideline, let's make it into a law" doesn't mean it suddenly transcends subjectivity.

No, I am not, and I have no idea how the thought could even enter anyone's brain that I could be trolling. I never said creating a sexism rating system would allow it to transcend subjectivity, I said it would establish a common ground, a benchmark of what is and what isn't sexism. One can still disagree whether something is sexist or to what degree, but without that benchmark there's no end to that debate and no point in having that debate at all. We need something that most if not everybody can agree on when it comes to sexism/racism/whatever or these issues will NEVER be solved

Also yes, the ESRB IS objective, that's it's entire purpose. The ESRB and systems like it are designed to be used to decide what is and what isn't too much for a person's age and decide policy around that. Now, some people may think the ESRB too lenient or too harsh and that much is subjective, but regardless it is thus far the only objective standard available for video games around here. Like all rating systems perhaps the ESRB could be better and even may ultimately change, but it is the authority on how much is too much regarding violence/sex/drugs/etc. in video games at the moment.

I hope I am explaining this well.

EDIT:

So? A label like this has to start somewhere, or it'll never happen. I'm pretty sure the ESRB rating system labels didn't just pop up on video game boxes spontaneously, somebody had to have made it and they had to have something to base it on, same with the MPAA rating system. If this happens with video games and proves effects similar systems will no doubt be born out of it for other forms of media.

But there's no reason for there to be a label like this in the first case.

If there isn't a reason to have a label like this in the first place then there is no reason to have an ESRB or MPAA or whatever label on anything else either. A label that more or less says "this has a lot of sexism" is no different than a label that says "this has a lot of violence". It serves to show how much and how often.

 

[subskipper]

as a swede all i can say is, wow are you guys are taking this seriously? i mean even if it would be passed (currently a non- goverment organisation recieved funding to investigate this) and used in sweden do you honestly belive the rest of the world would give a shit?

as for "or when some of the nation's movie theaters and TV channels began issuing ratings indicating whether or not films being shown passed the so-called "Bechdel Test."" this is the first i have heard of this. any other swedes around to point out what channels/publications actually do this?

Regarding the Bechdel test, no, I haven't seen anything about that. Granted, I rarely go to the movies anyways. As for actually going through with this, keep in mind Sweden is a country that actually has post modernist day cares. We also have Vänsterpartiet (The Left Party), one of the larger parties, that just before the recent elections had a handbook on gender equality on their web site. Not sure if it is still up, but in it you could find advice to women, warning them against leaving men alone as they have a tendency to scheme and conspire against women. We live in weird times, and Sweden is on a very slippery slope right now.

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

This sounds kind of like <a href=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-29739874>Bath Film Festival's decision to add an 'F' rating to films that have a female director or lead. By which I mean a good idea in theory, useful for highlighting inequality, but an idea that in practice will probably create more division.

 

[TravelerSF]

This sounds like it could get horribly misdirected. Kinda like USA's movie rating board which counts the swear words, is horrified by nudity and human intimacy but on comparison has very little problems with violence and death.

I mean how do you judge sexism in an artistic medium. Can they lower the score if there are no significant female characters? Doesn't the artist have a right for that kind of vision? And what if the setting requires for it? Must all of the female characters be empowering with no moments of weakness? Will the screentime be split 50/50 between male and female characters? This really does sound like we'd just get more token female characters filling the space.

I mean for crying out loud, sexism in video games is such a subjective thing that even something like Bayonetta is splitting opinions. The personal and cultural influences everyone has just make this kind of judging practically impossible.

 

[Genocidicles]

Goddamn I feel sorry for you see Sweden. A country that once produced vikings is now doing this.

Hopefully the contagion doesn't spread past your borders.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

We can't even figure out proper labeling for games as it is. Sometimes people can't even agree on the genre, but someone thinks that giving people power to label a product as sexist is a good idea. WOW!

 

[Sandjube]

Eh, can't see it mattering that much, except people will likely miss out on good games because the sexism/racism/everythingism pie chart isn't split exactly how they want it. Either that or every single game will start to feature exactly 1 male, 3 females, 2 disabled people etc. Until then my fucks will continue to not be given. Let's see how it goes sweden I'm curious.

 

[Davroth]

Here's a perfect example why the Bechdel Test is kind of worthless in its formulaic, simplistic way:

http://bechdeltest.com/view/5348/noah/

Yeah, sure, the movie passes on the three 'tests', no question there. But rather unsurprisingly, considering the source material, it basically reduces women to their biological functions. Not sure if I'd call that a 'female perspective', which from my understanding is what the Bechdel Test is supposed to evaluate.

I find it rather questionable that a country would employ such a flawed system to evaluate media, and if that's something they do, I find it rather questionable that they feel confident to evaluate sexism in video games. Yeah, I know, it's not the same people. This is just commenting on what seems to be the pervading mindset in Sweden, based on my very limited knowledge of it.