Sweden: Piracy Is Not A Religion

[twm1709]

ROFLMAO! these guys... what will they think of next xD

 

[TonyVonTonyus]

I thought it was ACTUAL piracy that you meant. Drinking rum and pillaging seems like
1)THE BEST RELIGION EVER!!!
2)Something Scandinavians would like because you know...VIKINGS!!! Who are essentially Scandinavian pirates.

 

[Wicky_42]

What we have is essientaly the power to make somthing out of nothing. It takes 0 raw materials to make a digital book, movie, game, etc.

I'm afraid quite a bit of time and money goes into creating these things. A development team for a game or an author for a book have their own bills to pay. You yourself know this:

At the same time, I undertsand that people put their time and money into these things, and they lose their sales like this.

Stealing, is stealing amigo. If you make a digital copy of something that's one less copy sold. I can understand stealing food, or clothes, but entertainment?

Ouch, a bit of hypocrisy there - stealing physical goods is ok/understandable, but entertainment isn't? Really? Because there's not money, time and resources in the manufacture of physical goods, is there? "If you make a digital copy of something that's one less copy sold" well, no, not necessarily, and there's not even one fewer item on the market because it was a copy. Steal a loaf of bread or a car, someone is materially down by that item and there really is a quantifiable loss.

But entertainment? No. If I play a game through at someone else's house then never buy it, have I 'stolen' anything? But I'm not going to buy it; I've already completed it! Maybe I rented the game for free from a library, or borrowed a book or DVD, and then never buy it - is that 'theft' as well, of this theoretical sale that would have existed if only I hadn't managed to experience the content without purchasing it.

If you want to pursue that angle, then you'll have to pay the manufacturer the full cost of the car every time you get a lift, or send Mars a pocketful of change if you have a snack at a friend's house. There's a difference between material and virtual goods, and doggedly ignoring the issue isn't going to work out for anyone in the long run.

 

[Pegghead]

You'll find that most religions live out their creeds under the laws of the country they are based in, so trying to justify piracy under a religion isn't going to get anywhere and is really just dragging down the reputation of religions that follow the laws of the land.

 

[Hero in a half shell]

Well.... Piracy is Illegal and I assume the files they where copying were copyright protected. and a religion that is about something illegal should not be allowed. The same reason why practicing old norse rituals are illegal (atleast the ones with human sacrifice)

But should it be illegal?

See, theres the issue.

What we have is essientaly the power to make somthing out of nothing. It takes 0 raw materials to make a digital book, movie, game, etc.

You have a limitless supply of these products. Why not share them? What if we could do this with food or water? would you still call it theft then?

At the same time, I undertsand that people put their time and money into these things, and they lose their sales like this.

This is one of the few issues where I am truly divided in my opinion.

The thing is, people often claim piracy isn't a crime because you aren't stealing a physical product off the companies, but that is a logical fallicy, because that's only one half of stealing games, the other half is playing the game and getting the experience for free that someone else had to pay for. You do not have the right or priviledge to experience a product that is being sold unless you pay for it. Saying "I wasn't going to buy it anyway" is not a valid excuse.
Another way of viewing the argument could be to look at cinemas, which play their movies for audiences that pay to get in, but if there are empty seats in the theatre why don't they let people in to see the movie who had no intention of going to see it? Because (a) It isn't fair on the people that paid and (b) It will lead to a loss in revenue for the film company, as many people deliberately wait until they are getting in for free.

 

[Wicky_42]

As I said, I understand that people put their time, effort, and money into making them.

IDW, I guess, I see both sides of the argument, and they both have damn good points. I wouldn't illegally download stuff unless the maker said it was okay with them, so I guess i'm leaning on the side that's wrong. Actually, I know it's wrong, but I wonder if it should be.

Think, if 150 years ago you told someone we would be able infinatly copy certain items at no cost, do you think that they would expect us to still pay for them?

In a ideal world (how a world with a monetary system can be ideal is beyond me, but), you wouldn't pay for games, books, movies, or anything digital. Instead, people would voluntary donate money to the creators they like.

But there is a cost... I dont know how your not getting that.
A devs job is to make games, they get payed for that. Money for the company comes from selling the games. If they didnt get money for making the game, then why should they make a game ? They need money, they have families. They put time, effort and money into making games.
Its stealing becuase you are witholding their payment. Like I said, its getting a builder to build your home, you assemble the resources, but you still need to pay them.

And its worse becuase you dont NEED games, so there isnta reason onther than greed.

Holy MOLEY you need to snip your posts!

Anywho, as you point out the devs are making entertainment. How much is that entertainment worth? How much do you think that dev should be paying himself? How do you put value on something that ultimately receives a purely subjective response, with no vital or practical application? The industry charges certain price points for certain types of games, but why those numbers? Because people are willing to pay that much, and even then they keep spending too much whilst releasing products that sometimes struggle to make an impact on the market; essentially, not even the people making the games know how much they are actually worth, they just spend money, set a price and hope.

You compare this to paying a builder for his time, but how do you decide how much his time is worth to you? Do you work out how long it would take you to do the task, and then how much money you could earn in that time? Pick a number out of the air? Look for comparable jobs and how much was paid for those? Let him set the number? Sounds like you'd just let him charge as much as he liked and then hope the end result was worth it - is that honestly the best way to do things?

 

[FallenMessiah88]

This is bullshit, plain and simple. All I see here is someone trying to steal shit and get away with it.

When you buy a game, you buy an experience. You buy entertainment and all that the people who put god know how many resources and hours into it wants in return, is a small amount of money.

When you pirate a game, you still get the experience, but without giving something in return. Its essentially the same as sneaking into a movie theater without paying.

Not to mention that the people who made the game actually also need a place to live, have bills to pay and some of them might even have a family to feed.

And no, just because other religions can be just as (if not more) retarded than this one, doesn't mean that we should just let it pass without question. I mean have we really become so fucking indifferent that we just don't care anymore?! Are we just going to say "Well, the rest of the world is already fucked up so what the hell!".

And for the record, no I don't hate religion or religious people as long as they keep to themselves and don't try to shove it down my throat. That doesn't change the fact that organized religion CAN be seriously fucked up sometimes.

 

[The Random One]

Yeah, but even if you share files because of your religious belief you're still going to jail, the same way you're still going to jail if you kill someone under the orders of Odin.

 

[Wicky_42]

Well.... Piracy is Illegal and I assume the files they where copying were copyright protected. and a religion that is about something illegal should not be allowed. The same reason why practicing old norse rituals are illegal (atleast the ones with human sacrifice)

But should it be illegal?

See, theres the issue.

What we have is essientaly the power to make somthing out of nothing. It takes 0 raw materials to make a digital book, movie, game, etc.

You have a limitless supply of these products. Why not share them? What if we could do this with food or water? would you still call it theft then?

At the same time, I undertsand that people put their time and money into these things, and they lose their sales like this.

This is one of the few issues where I am truly divided in my opinion.

The thing is, people often claim piracy isn't a crime because you aren't stealing a physical product off the companies, but that is a logical fallicy, because that's only one half of stealing games, the other half is playing the game and getting the experience for free that someone else had to pay for. You do not have the right or priviledge to experience a product that is being sold unless you pay for it. Saying "I wasn't going to buy it anyway" is not a valid excuse.
Another way of viewing the argument could be to look at cinemas, which play their movies for audiences that pay to get in, but if there are empty seats in the theatre why don't they let people in to see the movie who had no intention of going to see it? Because (a) It isn't fair on the people that paid and (b) It will lead to a loss in revenue for the film company, as many people deliberately wait until they are getting in for free.

How do you approach playing a game at a friend's house? Or borrowing a movie or book from a friend? Or a library? There are plenty of ways to experience a creative product without even the idea of paying for it emerging. Heck, I've completed Armoured Core 4, Halo 3 and Reach and I don't even own an Xbox, would you have me turn up to my local store with a big back of cash and purchase all of those items just because "I'd experienced a product without buying it"? Bullshit. You need to think a bit more deeply and not just assume that laws are made on moral grounds. There are strong arguments you can use but the one above is not one of those.

 

[Wicky_42]

...
When you buy a game, you buy an experience. You buy entertainment and all that the people who put god know how many resources and hours into it wants in return, is a small amount of money.

When you pirate a game, you still get the experience, but without giving something in return. Its essentially the same as sneaking into a movie theater without paying.
...

As I've said a couple of times above, what do you make of playing the game at a friend's house? Is that "stealing an experience"? Should I be arrested for all the Xbox 360 games I've played without even owning the console? Come on, you need to work out your argument a bit better.

 

[Wicky_42]

Yeah, but even if you share files because of your religious belief you're still going to jail, the same way you're still going to jail if you kill someone under the orders of Odin.

Or if you molest children before Christ. Oh no, that one's ok actually. Huh.

 

[Quaxar]

OT: I was hoping for this to be about pastafarianism not illegal downloading

Me too, man. Me too.

I was totally prepared to debate the old Pirate vs Ninja on a religious basis but instead I find filesharing Swedes.
This deception can not stand!

Wait, we should start a religion of ninja's who practice the stealing of other people's forum posts to combat the pirate religion

There's just the problem that I'm a filthy swashbuckler, not a pajamawarrior. Maybe I could be, like, the contact man between the groups?

 

[FallenMessiah88]

...
When you buy a game, you buy an experience. You buy entertainment and all that the people who put god know how many resources and hours into it wants in return, is a small amount of money.

When you pirate a game, you still get the experience, but without giving something in return. Its essentially the same as sneaking into a movie theater without paying.
...

As I've said a couple of times above, what do you make of playing the game at a friend's house? Is that "stealing an experience"? Should I be arrested for all the Xbox 360 games I've played without even owning the console? Come on, you need to work out your argument a bit better.

Nope you shouldn't. People who make stuff or do stuff for a living should be payed for it. It may not be as black and white as I and some others made it out to be, but that is still a fact.

Also, you might wanna consider being a little less condescending if you wanna have a serious dicussion.

 

[Hero in a half shell]

How do you approach playing a game at a friend's house? Or borrowing a movie or book from a friend? Or a library? There are plenty of ways to experience a creative product without even the idea of paying for it emerging. Heck, I've completed Armoured Core 4, Halo 3 and Reach and I don't even own an Xbox, would you have me turn up to my local store with a big back of cash and purchase all of those items just because "I'd experienced a product without buying it"? Bullshit. You need to think a bit more deeply and not just assume that laws are made on moral grounds. There are strong arguments you can use but the one above is not one of those.

In the case of the library, I believe they do pay a large copyright licence for their material, to make up for the free distribution of the materials. As for borrowing stuff, I do that all the time, heck some games even encourage it with splitcreen and co-op. But I suppose you only get that chance when at your friends house, and if he gave you a game, then he has to forfeit his ability to play it. There is still only one game or one movie knocking about, but with piracy there are unlimited extra copies being produced. All the games that you have played without an xbox, you can't replay them now, you can't relive the experience, and if you were to go to your friends and play it then you would have to take away your friends ability to play it at the same time. Truth be told sharing games among friends does hurt developers and they do not like it, but there is no possible way of enforcing a law to make it illegal, so they begrudgingly accept it. Piracy is a much greater problem, big enough to seriously damage sales and severly cut into the profit margins of a company.