Sword Art Online and sexual assault as tension(spoilers for SAO II)

[Cronenberg1]

You're really not helping eliminate the "gamers are sexist" stereotype. Seriously don't talk about this kind of thing unless you're 100% sure you know what you're talking about. Placing rape in quotation marks and saying that it's not a problem is a really fucked up thing to say.

That is a huge logical leap you made there.
The whole gamers being sexist seems more like wishful thinking on your part so that you can push your shit around.

I never said that gamers were sexist. I think that it's a stereotype given to us because of a vocal minority that thinks it's OK to say that rape isn't a real problem. I don't want gamers to be considered sexist either and part of that is not putting up with the ones that really are sexist.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Yes, it's one of these threads again. No, I get no enjoyment from these threads because I ultimately want to smack my head on a desk or I feel like I need a whole lot of pills and alcohol to wash the pain away.

Anyway, I was prompted to write this thread after reading a post here [https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2881191&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=91] on the anime news network about SAO II episode 13. Basically, Sinon, the new female lead for the GGO arc, is attacked by a former friend who is in league with a serial killer targeting top players in GGO. He attacks with a syringe of poison but gets pushed by Sinon (yes, i know this is real world but I want to keep the name simple for reference). He then grabs Sinon, throws the syringe away and tries to rape her. Kirito then enters and punches the guy in the face.

Now, I am not opposed to using rape as a narrative device but you better use it well. People on the forums have talked about it some saying that it fits since the attempted rapist is very broken mentally while other argue that it feels too much like a hero fantasy and the fact that Kirito was the one to save Sinon not Sinon herself was what condemned the scene for them. To put it into perspective, Psycho-Pass has a rape in the first episode but the shot was from a distance and the intervention was ultimately not a heroic act but simply a matter of doing the job. It felt a hell of a lot more tasteful than what is described here.

Having read only the light novels and not either of the anime due to the reputation of them, the author does seem to use attempted rape a lot. First, the threat was on Asuna in ALO, then it's Sinon in GGO and later it will be two helpers to the main leads in Alicezation Online. To me, using rape as a narrative device is almost always a one-use item because doing it again may seem exploitative.

Regardless, my (probably invalid) point has been made so what do you think.

Im fine with Sinon not being the "Hero" per se saving herself and what not. I mean theres the natural strength difference and whatnot and when your a smaller person you have to be trained to throw someone bigger than you ala Aikido.(Unless hes smaller than this does kind of go full dumb but then wed have to get into the intricacies of why size doesnt ALWAYS matter and that is another topic entirely)

The problem IMO isnt that scene but just the way they have done kirito and Asuna. There both a sort of wishfulfillment type characters in a country plagued with intimacy problems and a declining birthrate.Kirito is the prototypical "ideal male" of a more modern japan(In the eyes of Animoos at least) and Asuna the ideal female.

Kirito for example while polite is still strong and goes for what he wants. He also does that whole "im too focused to notice that all these women want me" thing that guys do in anime. The thing is is that in japan people are under high pressure to be goal oriented, finish college and do that successful person thing that there supposed to do. But still they have the whole lack of intimacy/birthrate thing which is where the later Kirito comes in and its where he starts to get annoying.

Hes "FOCUSED!" Able to move forward and go to college and make something of himself, But wait!!! hes also able to hold a functioning relationship! And!!!!! Get this!!! He can do all that while still holding a nerdy interest unlike those dirty otaku(a bit of slur its like the no.2 most unwanted thing in a man other than a man that gambles which is no. 1)

And to top it all off other big strong women can look at him with the oogly eyes.

Also dont get me started with asuna past the first Sao arc.

Now how does all this relate to that scene. its just one more notch, One more example of Kirito being the Ideal man of Japan and its starting to get pretty eye rolling for me.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Tension? No. Squick value, perhaps. Tension relies on uncertainty in outcome.

This sort of stuff makes me feel tired - watching it I just want it to stop. I remember seeing the bit where she logs out and thinking 'Oh, here comes a rape scene.' and when the kid walked in 'And that's the designated rapist, what a shame.'

But I don't think there's much point in complaining about it. She's a main female character in the sort of anime SAO is. She's there for someone to try to do horrible things to her so the main male character has someone to rescue. That's the fundamental premise of that sort of show. Almost everything's there to glorify the main character.

I'd prefer to see anime with strong female characters in - I'd prefer that this didn't teach people to think of women and girls in that sort of way (if indeed it does)... but I don't know there's anything that can be done about it. People are probably always going to produce these sorts of juvenile power/hero fantasies. About the most I can say is that I find it distressing enough that it's not my cup of tea, and I doubt I'd care to be around the people whose cup of tea it is. :/

This is something that's always amused me. Why is the threat of rape so special as a plot device that it shouldn't be used, much less used multiple times, while threats of deaths or maiming or insert-great-bodily-harm perfectly fine and normal? Can someone actually logically explain that mindset? Yes, rape is terrible, but rest assured that getting shot/hacked/burned to death, blown up, partially or completely, or any of the other myriad ways characters are threatened and actually killed by are no less terrible in real life, but yet seems perfectly acceptable and no one ever bats an eye at in stories?

I don't think that's true, many people - myself included - seem to find torture porn pretty horrible too. I think destroying someone's freedom comes close to the core of the issue: smashing someone helpless. Lots of the violence doesn't do that, both sides are fighting and one side loses.

the problem with Sao is that there was a strong female character but she really only existed to be won over and prove how strong the hero was. Once that was done she became a nice little wife material for ole Kirito.(Unless she jumps into GGO in which case I will sing and gladly eat my own words)

 

[Vibhor]

I never said that gamers were sexist. I think that it's a stereotype given to us because of a vocal minority that thinks it's OK to say that rape isn't a real problem. I don't want gamers to be considered sexist either and part of that is not putting up with the ones that really are sexist.

Stereotyping isn't exactly what makes a sound argument.
No need to feed the persecuting mentality of such people by even amusing their claims.
I apologize for going way off topic here.

 

[kyp275]

If we really are going down the route of "it's for younger audiences therefore no effort needs to be made", isn't it more important for the development of younger people to handle and discuss heavy subjects with sophistication as opposed to defaulting to popcorn power fantasy?

If someone wants to write things to that effect, I'm all for it. But I absolutely do no subscribe to the idea that entertainment media should alter their product and assume responsibility of educating the children/teens. Popcorn fantasy is what many of them writes, because that's what sells.

If you truly believe that then you've seen far, far too little media. Here's a pretty easy one: Dragon Ball Z. The villains are scummy as hell but each bring in a different kind of energy and dynamic with their presence. They're engaging and entertaining because of that. Raditz introduces a new aspect of Goku's past and forces Piccolo and Goku to work together, Nappa gleefully murders nearly the entire cast despite how long they prepared to for the battle, Vegeta is ruthless, cruel, and genocidal but indirectly serves the interests of the protagonists through his actions, Zarbon's charm is juxtaposed by his true hideous form, the Ginyu Force are basically flamboyant space jocks but nonetheless have menace by defeating Vegeta, Krillin, and breaking Gohan's neck, Frieza is a genocidal despot that cloaks his barbaric nature with an air of royalty, and Androids 17 and 18 are playfully juvenile and sadistic killing machines.

Oh please. DBZ? Really? The villains there are literally walking clichés, and the entire point of the story is to watch how the main casts manage to lol-powerup and lay the smack down on the villains. Look, I actually grew up reading DB/DBZ, waiting for each weekly chapter to come out, and as much as I love the franchise for what it is, I'm not even going to pretend there's anything to those villains, which all boils down to "Yarr! I iz evil! Kill all the things!!!" or "Yarr! I iz evil! Conquer all the worlds!!!"

I know you're going to say "thats the same when bad guys die" except the bad guys are always gunning for the protagonists so they can be reasonably rooted against.

Actually, what I've been saying, and you've continued to ignore apparently, is that often times it's not "the bad guy" who gets killed. Where's the power fantasy (for the non-insane dictator inclined) in acts of genocide? Where's the power and agency for the masses of unfortunate bystanders that gets nuked/vaporized/crushed/blown up? What did they do that can be reasonably rooted against?

Frankly, this is a part of American culture that I find to be rather amusing and sad. Anything that's sexual in nature gets amplified beyond all reasonable measure, but no one bats an eye at the pervasive violence. "Breaking New! Random celebrity A had a wardrobe malfunction! The nation waits with baited breath to see the potential fallout. In the meantime we'll return you to your regular zombie/medieval/modern body parts dissembling show!"

Again, like I said above to Izanagi, I do not believe sexual assault should be put on a pedestal and be given some special treatment relative to other major crimes. They all have their own particular nuances that others may not have.

It really comes down to the tone of the writing. I think SAO would have hugely benefited from not playing everything so completely straight and void of any wit or irony. Maybe create a world that actually moves on its own without Kirito having to show up and a cast that actually has some semblance of contrast and chemistry beyond hair color and style. It's the problem with most Light Novels where the authors glean all of their literary knowledge from anime and basically write their stories as a sort of screenplay for a hypothetical anime.

Sure, but again, you're looking for the wrong thing in the wrong market. Expecting Game of Thrones from LN is akin to someone walking into a Kia dealership looking to find a '15 Corvette ZR1

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Yes, it's one of these threads again. No, I get no enjoyment from these threads because I ultimately want to smack my head on a desk or I feel like I need a whole lot of pills and alcohol to wash the pain away.

Anyway, I was prompted to write this thread after reading a post here [https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2881191&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=91] on the anime news network about SAO II episode 13. Basically, Sinon, the new female lead for the GGO arc, is attacked by a former friend who is in league with a serial killer targeting top players in GGO. He attacks with a syringe of poison but gets pushed by Sinon (yes, i know this is real world but I want to keep the name simple for reference). He then grabs Sinon, throws the syringe away and tries to rape her. Kirito then enters and punches the guy in the face.

Now, I am not opposed to using rape as a narrative device but you better use it well. People on the forums have talked about it some saying that it fits since the attempted rapist is very broken mentally while other argue that it feels too much like a hero fantasy and the fact that Kirito was the one to save Sinon not Sinon herself was what condemned the scene for them. To put it into perspective, Psycho-Pass has a rape in the first episode but the shot was from a distance and the intervention was ultimately not a heroic act but simply a matter of doing the job. It felt a hell of a lot more tasteful than what is described here.

Having read only the light novels and not either of the anime due to the reputation of them, the author does seem to use attempted rape a lot. First, the threat was on Asuna in ALO, then it's Sinon in GGO and later it will be two helpers to the main leads in Alicezation Online. To me, using rape as a narrative device is almost always a one-use item because doing it again may seem exploitative.

Regardless, my (probably invalid) point has been made so what do you think.

Im fine with Sinon not being the "Hero" per se saving herself and what not. I mean theres the natural strength difference and whatnot and when your a smaller person you have to be trained to throw someone bigger than you ala Aikido.(Unless hes smaller than this does kind of go full dumb but then wed have to get into the intricacies of why size doesnt ALWAYS matter and that is another topic entirely)

The problem IMO isnt that scene but just the way they have done kirito and Asuna. There both a sort of wishfulfillment type characters in a country plagued with intimacy problems and a declining birthrate.Kirito is the prototypical "ideal male" of a more modern japan(In the eyes of Animoos at least) and Asuna the ideal female.

Kirito for example while polite is still strong and goes for what he wants. He also does that whole "im too focused to notice that all these women want me" thing that guys do in anime. The thing is is that in japan people are under high pressure to be goal oriented, finish college and do that successful person thing that there supposed to do. But still they have the whole lack of intimacy/birthrate thing which is where the later Kirito comes in and its where he starts to get annoying.

Hes "FOCUSED!" Able to move forward and go to college and make something of himself, But wait!!! hes also able to hold a functioning relationship! And!!!!! Get this!!! He can do all that while still holding a nerdy interest unlike those dirty otaku(a bit of slur its like the no.2 most unwanted thing in a man other than a man that gambles which is no. 1)

And to top it all off other big strong women can look at him with the oogly eyes.

Also dont get me started with asuna past the first Sao arc.

Now how does all this relate to that scene. its just one more notch, One more example of Kirito being the Ideal man of Japan and its starting to get pretty eye rolling for me.

huh, this is a new interpretation i didn't think of. I just thought it was a self-insert for Hikikomori who are unwilling to interact with people but want a cute girlfriend. This does make some sort of sense. I understand that Japan needs people able to have both relationships and the highly successful careers that will drive the economy but narratively, there has to be a better way than making him the bloody gary sue. What about something like Persona with a person growing out of his shell interacting with people while in college or something? But no, we get this

Also, I would like to refer you to another poster, Danger: Must Silence. He's a teacher in Japan and may be able to help shed on insight on why Kirito is written the way he is.

 

[mlbslugger06]

I don't understand how this is an issue. A person was threatened and tried to get away. That person failed to do so and luckily a friend was there to help. Humans, both male and female, experience failure at some point and, especially in situations of life & death, those failures can be fatal. Fortunately for Sinon, Kirito was there to help her when she failed to escape. Switch out Kirito and Sinon and the situation does not change. It is simply a person in need of help who managed to get it.

Rape as a narrative device? Sure, why not? Isn't rape something that happens and sex a motivator for some people to attack innocents? Kirito saving Sinon may be looked on as heroic to some and why shouldn't it be? As I said above, a person was threatened and in need of help, so when someone came along to help them - at risk of harming themselves in the attempt - isn't that person acting heroically?

 

[kyp275]

huh, this is a new interpretation i didn't think of. I just thought it was a self-insert for Hikikomori who are unwilling to interact with people but want a cute girlfriend.

Sigh, really? Read that again, and tell me how is that any better than lines like "FPS are just self-inserts for mass murderer/badass-wannabes" or "Twilight is just self-insert for lonely teenage girls who just wants all the hot guys to fall for her because reasons".

This does make some sort of sense. I understand that Japan needs people able to have both relationships and the highly successful careers that will drive the economy but narratively, there has to be a better way than making him the bloody gary sue.

You're assigning some sort of social goals to things like SAO where there is none. SAO isn't written the way it is to encourage more intimacy and relationship in the Japanese population, but rather that the tropes used is well-received amongst its core demographics BECAUSE of the cultural and society factors at play.

What about something like Persona with a person growing out of his shell interacting with people while in college or something? But no, we get this

You know what that's called? Seinen manga/novels. Christ people, I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. If you go into Captain America looking for the kind of nuanced and brutally honest take on WW2 from shows like Band of Brothers or The Pacific, you're gonna be sorely disappointed, same principle here.

And before you ask, no, you don't see much animes from the seinen genre, because the market isn't there.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

huh, this is a new interpretation i didn't think of. I just thought it was a self-insert for Hikikomori who are unwilling to interact with people but want a cute girlfriend.

Sigh, really? Read that again, and tell me how is that any better than lines like "FPS are just self-inserts for mass murderer/badass-wannabes" or "Twilight is just self-insert for lonely teenage girls who just wants all the hot guys to fall for her because reasons".

This does make some sort of sense. I understand that Japan needs people able to have both relationships and the highly successful careers that will drive the economy but narratively, there has to be a better way than making him the bloody gary sue.

You're assigning some sort of social goals to things like SAO where there is none. SAO isn't written the way it is to encourage more intimacy and relationship in the Japanese population, but rather that the tropes used is well-received amongst its core demographics BECAUSE of the cultural and society factors at play.

What about something like Persona with a person growing out of his shell interacting with people while in college or something? But no, we get this

You know what that's called? Seinen manga/novels. Christ people, I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. If you go into Captain America looking for the kind of nuanced and brutally honest take on WW2 from shows like Band of Brothers or The Pacific, you're gonna be sorely disappointed, same principle here.

And before you ask, no, you don't see much animes from the seinen genre, because the market isn't there.

Point rundown (really need to make a standard heading for this)

-Let's be frank, some media is just like that. Some are made for fun elements while others have aspects of fantasy. Lets be honest, some romances have the element of "i want to be in that position" and some action movies have the "I want to be that guy" thing going on. People usually have a way of separating the self-insert from the work or are cognizant of it; with anime, i'm not that sure

-that's a problem, media and reality are in a feedback loop; feed info from one in and you may get results in the other. If Japan really wants the Hikikomori problem to be diminished then stop feeding them with false information; it will just make them further entrenched.

-Captain America has implicit liberal politics in his personality and character, Superman is inherinatly an optimistic hero while batman is more pessimistic. Just because it's media for a younger age doesn't mean that themes and meaning aren't there. While I may not get something like The Pacific with Captain America, you can still make a point or just have better writing.

-really, no audience, most of these hikikomori are around college age and even teenagers are able to comprehend stuff like 1984, Brave New World, Fahrenheit 451 and the like. To go a tad political, you feed teenagers self-gratifying or non-challenging works, you don't get a well rounded individual. Don't treat the audience like idiots, challenge them and their minds.

 

[kyp275]

Point rundown (really need to make a standard heading for this)

-Let's be frank, some media is just like that. Some are made for fun elements while others have aspects of fantasy. Lets be honest, some romances have the element of "i want to be in that position" and some action movies have the "I want to be that guy" thing going on. People usually have a way of separating the self-insert from the work or are cognizant of it; with anime, i'm not that sure

And that's based on what exactly? I can see no logical reason why a particular visual medium is somehow more persuasive and capable of fooling the viewers than any other visual mediums.

-that's a problem, media and reality are in a feedback loop; feed info from one in and you may get results in the other. If Japan really wants the Hikikomori problem to be diminished then stop feeding them with false information; it will just make them further entrenched.

I'm sorry, I simply cannot take that assertion even remotely seriously. Suggesting that cliché animes are some sort of a meaningful/substantial contributor to a social issue with deeply entrenched cultural and socio-economic roots is like saying the gang problem in the US can be diminished if only we'd stop feeding them rap music.

Again, it is not the job of shounen animes like SAO to "solve" the hikikomori problem(and it's not as if people turning into loners after being rejected by their social group is something specific to Japan, we have plenty of them here too, the only difference is that in Japan the extreme ones lock themselves in their room for years, ours simply go out and shoot people), nor is it the rapper's job to help stem the rising tide of gangs.

-Captain America has implicit liberal politics in his personality and character, Superman is inherinatly an optimistic hero while batman is more pessimistic. Just because it's media for a younger age doesn't mean that themes and meaning aren't there. While I may not get something like The Pacific with Captain America, you can still make a point or just have better writing.

Great, and completely unrelated to the point I was making. I never said Captain America have no point or character, I said that it was the wrong type of movie to look for any serious take on WW2, because that's not what that story is about. Just like SAO is the wrong type of story to look for any serious take on subject matters like sexual assault, because again, that's not what the story is about.

SAO does have points where it excels, which is primarily the exploration of the virtual vs material world, and the nature of AIs.

-really, no audience, most of these hikikomori are around college age and even teenagers are able to comprehend stuff like 1984, Brave New World, Fahrenheit 451 and the like. To go a tad political, you feed teenagers self-gratifying or non-challenging works, you don't get a well rounded individual. Don't treat the audience like idiots, challenge them and their minds.

And you'd have a point if there's literally nothing for them to read other than stuff like SAO. But that's not true is it? All those challenging works are there for those who are inclined to peruse them. There hasn't been a great burning of the libraries or the destruction of the internet, if anything, kids today in developed country have far more open access to any and all sorts of information they want.

From where I stand, you're essentially advocating for content producers to produce things that you find agreeable, and less or none of those that you don't. That is not a mindset I find particularly palatable.

 

[Maraskeen]

I don't understand how this is an issue. A person was threatened and tried to get away. That person failed to do so and luckily a friend was there to help. Humans, both male and female, experience failure at some point and, especially in situations of life & death, those failures can be fatal. Fortunately for Sinon, Kirito was there to help her when she failed to escape. Switch out Kirito and Sinon and the situation does not change. It is simply a person in need of help who managed to get it.

Rape as a narrative device? Sure, why not? Isn't rape something that happens and sex a motivator for some people to attack innocents? Kirito saving Sinon may be looked on as heroic to some and why shouldn't it be? As I said above, a person was threatened and in need of help, so when someone came along to help them - at risk of harming themselves in the attempt - isn't that person acting heroically?

Regardless of my instinctive discomfort towards any work of art treating rape lightly, I find that repetition is the worst offender here. It happened with Asuna, and it repeats with Sinon, both occurences at a time when the arc's conflict is amped up. Sure, SAO is a silly self-insert fantasy, 'n all, so the hero needs to barge in and save his hopeless damsel. But there are definitely other ways to signify that a female character is in danger that having her threatened by rape, and the fact that he doesn't seem to know anything else doesn't help me view the writer in a very favorable light. But I'll out that aside for now, as it's a whole other can of worms.
Would I have reacted the same way, were the gender roles to be reversed, and Kirito the one threatened by sexual assault instead of Asuna/Sinon? Absolutely. Goddamnit, Kawahara. Your bad guys are psychotic CEOs and/or efficient serial killers. They are bad enough as it is for the hero/heroine to have reason to fear for their life without the extra layer of rape, and you don't need to spell it out for your audience. This isn't only distasteful and not very sensitive, that's also pretty bad narration.

As for "Kirito saving Sinon may be looked on as heroic to some and why shouldn't it be?", that's precisely the problem I have with this plot device and the way it is used. Allow me, if I may, to go back to Episode 24 of SAO I. Again, I'm only speaking in my name here, as for the entirety of this post, but Asuna's sexual assault's scene, and Kirito's subsequent rescue, might well have been the worst thing I've witness in years of watching anime. Not necessarily for its sleaziness and creepy fanservice, but because the whole scene served as justification for Kirito's actions. We were supposed to believe that Kiroto was heroic (spoilers) in wanting to kill Sugou, or in beating him to a pulp afterwards, in the real world, because of the terrible things he'd done to his waifu - we were supposed to admire him for being merciless and exacting bloody revenge, when he could have brought the man to justice. As a viewer, this felt to me like emotional manipulation and didn't float my boat at all.
Which brings me to this. I know it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone while treating of "rape as plot *device*", but I was shocked to see how instrumental Asuna was to this whole ordeal. Ultimately, none of this was about her at all. It was Kirito who fought at the end, and came to here to enjoy a well-deserved peace afterwards. And if the anime, which routinely describes Krito's Aincrad-related PTSD and hero complex in loving detail, mentioned the fact that this attempted rape could have had affected Asuna in any way, then it was so subtle I missed it.

If I spent so much time rambling about SAO1, it's because it had set an axtremely bad precedent. Perhaps I wouldn't have disliked Episode 13 of SAO2 so much hadn't it been there, I don't know. Perhaps Episode 14 will turn out to redeem the bad impression given by the last one (and Sinon having Kirito-related epiphany in the middle of facing yet another last minute rapist), but somehow I highly doubt so.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Point rundown (really need to make a standard heading for this)

-Let's be frank, some media is just like that. Some are made for fun elements while others have aspects of fantasy. Lets be honest, some romances have the element of "i want to be in that position" and some action movies have the "I want to be that guy" thing going on. People usually have a way of separating the self-insert from the work or are cognizant of it; with anime, i'm not that sure

And that's based on what exactly? I can see no logical reason why a particular visual medium is somehow more persuasive and capable of fooling the viewers than any other visual mediums.

-that's a problem, media and reality are in a feedback loop; feed info from one in and you may get results in the other. If Japan really wants the Hikikomori problem to be diminished then stop feeding them with false information; it will just make them further entrenched.

I'm sorry, I simply cannot take that assertion even remotely seriously. Suggesting that cliché animes are some sort of a meaningful/substantial contributor to a social issue with deeply entrenched cultural and socio-economic roots is like saying the gang problem in the US can be diminished if only we'd stop feeding them rap music.

Again, it is not the job of shounen animes like SAO to "solve" the hikikomori problem(and it's not as if people turning into loners after being rejected by their social group is something specific to Japan, we have plenty of them here too, the only difference is that in Japan the extreme ones lock themselves in their room for years, ours simply go out and shoot people), nor is it the rapper's job to help stem the rising tide of gangs.

-Captain America has implicit liberal politics in his personality and character, Superman is inherinatly an optimistic hero while batman is more pessimistic. Just because it's media for a younger age doesn't mean that themes and meaning aren't there. While I may not get something like The Pacific with Captain America, you can still make a point or just have better writing.

Great, and completely unrelated to the point I was making. I never said Captain America have no point or character, I said that it was the wrong type of movie to look for any serious take on WW2, because that's not what that story is about. Just like SAO is the wrong type of story to look for any serious take on subject matters like sexual assault, because that's not what the story is about. SAO does have points where it excels, which is primarily the exploration of the virtual vs material world, and the nature of AIs.

-really, no audience, most of these hikikomori are around college age and even teenagers are able to comprehend stuff like 1984, Brave New World, Fahrenheit 451 and the like. To go a tad political, you feed teenagers self-gratifying or non-challenging works, you don't get a well rounded individual. Don't treat the audience like idiots, challenge them and their minds.

And you'd have a point if there's literally nothing for them to read other than stuff like SAO. But that's not true is it? All those challenging works are there for those who are inclined to peruse them. There hasn't been a great burning of the libraries or the destruction of the internet, if anything, kids today in developed country have far more open access to any and all sorts of information they want.

From where I stand, you're essentially advocating for content producers to produce things that you find agreeable, and less or none of those that you don't. This is not a mindset I find agreeable.

breakdown

-my sentiment is more towards the people who use it to hide away, a very small population but a troublesome one.

-it's not so much a contributor but a minor influencer. you get the idea stuck in your head and over and over as you get exposed the themes can be solidified in someone's mind. People have made that claim for "hero gets the girl" narratives and I say that it could be happening here. It's not the job of the content maker to solve issues but they should be cognizant of what they make and what it implies. To use the rapper example, he has no obligations to stem gang crime but he better be aware of what he's implying when he makes songs promoting the lifestyle. Anime is the same: use your tropes as you wish but be aware of how it seems when put under analysis.

-Just because it is exploring different themes doesn't mean it can be so brazen as to use the same trope of sexual assault over and over. Even if it's not thematic, it can still seem problematic and exploitative.

-to use an analogy, you feed a kid vegetables even if they hate them to keep them healthy but they still can eat junk food. The same should be applied to the younger audiences, let them have their fun little shows but balance it out with shows that provide counter points to the tropes used and comment on the implications. I may seem too harsh with the medium but I can't exactly say I want all fun shows gone when I like Panty and Stocking and Jojo's. For god sakes though, please be a bit more aware of the tropes you are using, it backfired during ALO and it could backfire with this.

 

[kyp275]

As for "Kirito saving Sinon may be looked on as heroic to some and why shouldn't it be?", that's exactly the problem with that plot device and the way it is used. Allow me, if I may, to go back to Episode 24 of SAO I. Again, I'm only speaking in my name here, as for the entirety of this post, but Asuna's sexual assault's scene, and Kirito's subsequent rescue, might well have been the worst thing I've witness in years of watching anime. Not necessarily for its sleaziness and creepy fanservice, but because the whole scene served as justification for Kirito's actions. We were supposed to believe that Kiroto was heroic (spoilers) in wanting to kill Sugou, or in beating him to a pulp afterwards, in the real world, because of the terrible things he'd done to his waifu - we were supposed to admire him for being merciless and exacting bloody revenge, when he could have brought the man to justice. As a viewer, this felt to me like emotional manipulation and didn't float my boat at all.

Good lord, how many animes, or for that matter TV shows or movies or books have you seen or read in those years? Bad guys doing bad things to justify the protagonist's actions is such a basic construct I don't even know where to begin if that's your problem with the story. You don't want to see authors using emotional manipulation? Stick to documentaries, and even there you'd have to be careful.

What did you think Gladiators was about? Or maybe Dexter? Or basically every story where the protagonists beats a villain that did bad things? That brush is so wide you might as well just use a fire hose instead.

The overwhelming drive for political correctness displayed here is shocking. It's almost as if people aren't capable of separating what is real and what's fiction anymore.

 

[mlbslugger06]

As for "Kirito saving Sinon may be looked on as heroic to some and why shouldn't it be?", that's precisely the problem I have with this plot device and the way it is used. Allow me, if I may, to go back to Episode 24 of SAO I. Again, I'm only speaking in my name here, as for the entirety of this post, but Asuna's sexual assault's scene, and Kirito's subsequent rescue, might well have been the worst thing I've witness in years of watching anime. Not necessarily for its sleaziness and creepy fanservice, but because the whole scene served as justification for Kirito's actions. We were supposed to believe that Kiroto was heroic (spoilers) in wanting to kill Sugou, or in beating him to a pulp afterwards, in the real world, because of the terrible things he'd done to his waifu - we were supposed to admire him for being merciless and exacting bloody revenge, when he could have brought the man to justice. As a viewer, this felt to me like emotional manipulation and didn't float my boat at all.

I had no problem with the writers providing a reason for Kirito to attack and seek revenge against Sugou. I only called Kirito's actions heroic because a person acting selflessly to save someone else is something people consider heroic. Do I? Not at all. Kirito had no moral obligation to save Sinon or Asuna. He only had personal interests in saving Asuna. I would say he was justified in trying to save Asuna because he had something to gain from saving her. Why did Kirito put himself at risk to save Sinon? I have no idea. They already solved the case and won the game, so Sinon no longer provided value.

I think it could be said that Kirito attacked Sugou and Sinon's friend for himself because his anger would be satisfied after doing so or because he wanted to see those men in pain. I never felt the writer's were making his actions out to be heroic. Kirito, despite his thoughtful, caring demeanor, has some real anger and he seems to always see his grudges out to the end. Asuna, Sinon, Klein and the others see him as a hero because he saves them and appears to act entirely out of loyalty to his friends. Is that the truth behind his actions? I don't know.

Back to rape though.
Do writers need to create better characters so that their identities aren't reliant on the same type of events and situations? Yes.
That being said, is it wrong for a would-be victim of rape, who has tried but cannot escape on his/her own, to be saved by a character who is meant to be portrayed as a hero? No.
Does saving a person from sexual assault make you a hero? To most people, not all.
Does it earn you the gratitude, respect or admiration of the would-be victim? Most likely.
Is gratitude, respect or admiration the same as being considered a hero? Not at all.
Can that action reinforce his identity as a hero? If you are aiming at the "most people" demographic.
Can a character's reputation of hero allow him to do morally ambiguous things hoping the audience will let them slide in his case? Absolutely, that is human psychology 101.

If you dislike Kirito's actions being excused just because he saved Asuna or Sinon, get over it. People let those things slide because they think heroes "earn" that right.

 

[kyp275]

breakdown

-my sentiment is more towards the people who use it to hide away, a very small population but a troublesome one.

-it's not so much a contributor but a minor influencer. you get the idea stuck in your head and over and over as you get exposed the themes can be solidified in someone's mind. People have made that claim for "hero gets the girl" narratives and I say that it could be happening here. It's not the job of the content maker to solve issues but they should be cognizant of what they make and what it implies. To use the rapper example, he has no obligations to stem gang crime but he better be aware of what he's implying when he makes songs promoting the lifestyle. Anime is the same: use your tropes as you wish but be aware of how it seems when put under analysis.

-Just because it is exploring different themes doesn't mean it can be so brazen as to use the same trope of sexual assault over and over. Even if it's not thematic, it can still seem problematic and exploitative.

-to use an analogy, you feed a kid vegetables even if they hate them to keep them healthy but they still can eat junk food. The same should be applied to the younger audiences, let them have their fun little shows but balance it out with shows that provide counter points to the tropes used and comment on the implications. I may seem too harsh with the medium but I can't exactly say I want all fun shows gone when I like Panty and Stocking and Jojo's. For god sakes though, please be a bit more aware of the tropes you are using, it backfired during ALO and it could backfire with this.

-then that's on them, not the medium. You don't go off criticizing the superglue manufacturer because some dumbass decides to sniff them instead.

-"hero gets the girl" happens EVERYWHERE. Eastern and western media, anime and Hollywood, manga and novels. Probably because it happens a shit ton in real life. The jock and the popular kids in school, or the rich and famous, the star athletes, etc. etc. you get the point. Should content creators be cognizant of what they're producing? Sure, if they choose to do so. Should they be required to give two ****s about it as long as it's not illegal? Not one bit. Unless you start paying their bills, they are not beholden to what you think, nor should they be. Take Transformers, people can ***** and moan about how terrible those movies are, but Michael Bay isn't going to care one bit because there are enough people who felt differently to pay to see those movies.

-That's fine, it's your personal opinion. But realize that also means it's not some objective fact. You find it problematic and exploitative? I didn't, and I'm sure there are many things which I'd find problematic and exploitative that you probably won't.

-Did you skip over the entire paragraph where I said that your point would be valid if there is nothing else available, which is patently not true? And I'm sorry, but you need to have a reality check here. There was no "backfiring" of anything during ALO, nor is there going to be one with GGO, because frankly what the western fandom thinks is largely irrelevant. We are not their primary market, we're not even a secondary or tertiary market. Our financial contribution to the industry is minor at best. I'm not sure why you think they'd care what some westerners who don't even pay a single cent for their products think.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

-Did you skip over the entire paragraph where I said that your point would be valid if there is nothing else available, which is patently not true? And I'm sorry, but you need to have a reality check here. There was no "backfiring" of anything during ALO, nor is there going to be one with GGO, because frankly what the western fandom thinks is largely irrelevant. We are not their primary market, we're not even a secondary or tertiary market. Our financial contribution to the industry is minor at best. I'm not sure why you think they'd care what some westerners who don't even pay a single cent for their products think.

This point is what I want to address since the rest seem fine.

The american market has some growth. The fact that stuff is even released to the country or even put on air means we have some importance. Also, someone has to break the echo chamber of waifu loving, pandered nuts. We have the ability as people to do so and I bet that there are critics in Japan who share similar sentiment as I do. The mass audience may determine the money but it's the academic and critical sphere that will determine it's cultural impact and SAO seems to not be satisfactory on the latter front.

 

[Ramzal]

I'm actually surprised that this topic can be stretched out to five pages. It was a event in sword art that amounted to almost a minute and a half. It was also fictional. No one was actually hurt/groped up. It was a drawn female character who got felt up by a drawn sociopath that ended up arrested. I'm generally not sure why it is taken this seriously.

 

[vIRL Nightmare]

On one hand it worked well for the plot, but the scene made me cringe pretty hard. I won't say that was a bad thing since that should be the result, it was just kind of agonizing to watch it play out.

 

[Andrey Sirotin]

I'm sorry, but this entire show is a big fat turd; The attempted rape was just another terrible scene(I thought that "Mr.Friendzone" was going to be a bad guy from the start). I don't think there is anything wrong with using rape as a plot element, especially considering how we treat murder.

 

[Maraskeen]

Good lord, how many animes, or for that matter TV shows or movies or books have you seen or read in those years? Bad guys doing bad things to justify the protagonist's actions is such a basic construct I don't even know where to begin if that's your problem with the story. You don't want to see authors using emotional manipulation? Stick to documentaries, and even there you'd have to be careful.
What did you think Gladiators was about? Or maybe Dexter? Or basically every story where the protagonists beats a villain that did bad things? That brush is so wide you might as well just use a fire hose instead.

You're making a pretty good point. I'll admit that my post was perhaps too focused on SAO itself, and overlooked the fact that similar dynamics were at play in the media as a whole. And I don't know why that scene in particular stuck with me, honestly. Perhaps because of how... transparent the whole thing felt? Haven't seen Gladiator, but at least you'd question whether what Dexter was doing was the right thing or not. Heck, a large part of the series' appeal comes from acknowledging there *is* a discrepency between several forms of justice. And I've seen my fair share of pandering anime (directed towards both demographics, mind you) based solely on people being rescued at one point, but you expect those stories to be bad from the get-go.
I felt like SAO's rape scenes contributed nothing, added nothing to the plot if not gratuitous squick, and if nothing else reduced characters previously established as capable and resourceful on their own to mere presences in the background. It's a personal point of view, and granted, a personal point of view is all I've got here, because my emotional reponse to ep 13 was strong, and I find my impressions difficult to rationalize - feel free to disagree, and invoke the general rule. It still makes for a shitty story in my eyes.

The overwhelming drive for political correctness displayed here is shocking. It's almost as if people aren't capable of separating what is real and what's fiction anymore.

I don't much care for PC-ness. As a person and an (admittedly pretty lame) aspiring writer, I simply don't agree with using rape as plot device only - and didn't agree with that before even knowing that PC-ness was a thing. I understand why someone would find having to rescpect political correctess instead of speaking his mind in earnest, but conversely, I don't know why I sould refrain from saying that an anime episode I think sucks sucks simply because "that'd be too politically correct."
As for distancing reality from fiction, my griefs against SAO are mostly narrative and ideological ones. I have no problem with the majoity of villains, or heroes, as long as their heroism isn't force-fed to their audience. Your mileage may vary as to what this entails.