Texas v abortion

CriticalGaming

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In order:

Yes
No
Don't see why not
Do you really think banning religion is an easier solution than sex ed?
The ban on religion is hyberbole, obviously. However there is a bit of a confliction, because so long as the church preaches that birth control is wrong, then you are going to continue to get unwanted pregnancies. Though tbf they also teach that abortion is wrong, so i don't know how many abortions occur from the devoutly religious.

As for the education regard, I was taught about sex in high school biology. I don't know if they still do it.

Condoms were given out freely to anyone and everyone at both my high school and college. But again, you cant' force people to wear them and if guys don't have to, they wont. Then you have another question on top of that. If you wanted to provide some sort of birth control program to people, how would you deliver that BC? Would everyone get a box of condoms every month in the mail from the government? Which also means that whatever condom maker didn't get the government contract is basically out of business because why buy any when you get a free supply right in the mail?

But let's say you have everything that has been suggested. Great, free, sex ed programs that are given to kids in high school AND everyone that wants them outside of that. Free BC to everyone.

And STILL people are getting knocked up with babies they don't want. What then?
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
The ban on religion is hyberbole, obviously. However there is a bit of a confliction, because so long as the church preaches that birth control is wrong, then you are going to continue to get unwanted pregnancies. Though tbf they also teach that abortion is wrong, so i don't know how many abortions occur from the devoutly religious.

As for the education regard, I was taught about sex in high school biology. I don't know if they still do it.

Condoms were given out freely to anyone and everyone at both my high school and college. But again, you cant' force people to wear them and if guys don't have to, they wont. Then you have another question on top of that. If you wanted to provide some sort of birth control program to people, how would you deliver that BC? Would everyone get a box of condoms every month in the mail from the government? Which also means that whatever condom maker didn't get the government contract is basically out of business because why buy any when you get a free supply right in the mail?

But let's say you have everything that has been suggested. Great, free, sex ed programs that are given to kids in high school AND everyone that wants them outside of that. Free BC to everyone.

And STILL people are getting knocked up with babies they don't want. What then?
If we actually did educate everyone on sex, pregnancy, dangers etc and everyone was informed but it still happened. Then you would have an argument that they knew the risks and did it anyway, so now they are stuck with the kid. But we don't, sex ed can run anywhere from giving you all the info, to someone just saying don't worry about sex since you can't have it till you are married.
 

happyninja42

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What systems of support out of curiosity? I'm legit asking.
You're kidding right? You have no knowledge of the things like Planned Parenthood, which tries to provide women with access to contraceptives, gynecological care, etc?
The courts allowing companies to deny various forms of medical coverage to their employees (things like birth control) due to religious beliefs, forcing them to pay for it out of their own pocket, when they are often on very limited income anyway.
Other things like various programs on more local levels, of groups trying to provide contraceptives to teenagers, since they are the highest risk group, being shut down by religious shitbags. Basically any and every form of sex education, that promotes anything other than abstinence, is, and has been a target for conservative action groups, and shut down, usually by passing religiously based laws, shoving their christ down our throats and women's vaginas.
Like do we need sex classes to tell people that babies happen when you cum inside girls? Is that not clear to people?
NO! It's NOT clear to a lot of people! Because there are parent and religious groups that actively push to prevent ANY discussion of stuff like that in schools, and so the kids know none of the actual facts about sex and reproduction. They're often fed some religious BS about sin and other nonsense crap that has no actual use related to sex education, and then they are at a loss on what to do, and where they can go for help, when they are suddenly facing their own raging hormones, and a irrepressible urge to satisfy those hormones. I think you are incredibly clueless about just how fucking stupid and ignorant a LOT of people in the US are, particularly in states that are fundamentally christian, like texas. I live in Alabama, and I've had people talk to me, and illustrating their complete lack of understanding of shit you and I probably learned in the 3rd fucking grade. Basic shit, and without fail, from my experience, these people are hyper religious, and think that the bible is all you need to guide you through life, and they base their entire outlook (and voting habits) off of this.

Should we expect a system that just mails out free condoms to people because they can't figure they should use them? When I was in high school several girls got knocked up because the dudes didn't WANT to wear the condoms. It had nothing to do with how difficult it was to get ahold of them.
And yet there are entire COUNTRIES who allow access to contraceptives, just like that, and it works just fine. And yes, peer pressure, when the woman is ignorant of things like just how ovulation and pregnancy works, and also slut shaming, are a big problem. But you know what doesn't help with that? Religious idiots convincing the girls it's their fault for being whores of babylon, and that their virtue is now lost, and other shit. Part of sex education, is about teaching women to feel empowered about their own bodies, and NOT giving in to shit like some douchebag who probably told her it's ok to not use a condom, as *insert some random BS reason that might sound right*, but how the fuck is the girl going to know, because she never had sex ed classes based on scientific fact. But giving the girls, and the boys, the ACTUAL knowledge, and access to the supplies, REDUCES the risk and frequency of unwanted pregnancies, and STD's. Pretending it's all just going to work itself out, which is the conservative stance on it, accomplishes the exact opposite.

Like you can teach people about safe sex all you want, but so long as the natural way feels better people will do it that way.
....yes...because clearly NOBODY is responsible enough to take a bit of pleasure for the team, and use protection. I don't fucking get you sometimes. You speak in complete absolutes all the time. You talk about shit like this, and it's responses that boil down to "well 100% of people will/won't do this so it's pointless!" when the reality is that, yes, none of these methods are 100% effective, but they ARE effective at reducing the overall problems they are addressing. So to say "yeah well I knew 3 dumb chicks in school that still fucked without condoms and got pregnant, so clearly condoms don't prevent teen pregnancy" is stupid bordering on pathological. It also ignores the likely dozens of girls who weren't dumb, who DID use condoms, and didn't get pregnant. A number that is at risk of becoming much smaller, due to the actions of the religious conservatives.

Then of course there is religion teaching girls that the pill is a fucking sin which is another stupid thing religion does.
Religion also does all the above shit in this thread, and more. It's ALL religiously based, and is entirely purity culture bullshit. Don't teach kids about sex, it will lead to sin. Don't give them access to contraceptives, it will lead to sin. Just tell them they will be sinners if they do this stuff, and that will totes be enough to keep all the good little kids in line. And when they invariably don't live up to this unrealistic religious standard? Well they were bad from the start, sinful kids anyway, and we can wash our hands of them and their problems. They are living in sin, so we're justified in treating them like shit (even though we were already doing that anyway). That's basically the conservative party line for decades on this subject.

You know what? Now that i think about it.....can we ban religion? I think that would work out better for everyone.
More and more every day, I'd fucking love to.
 
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AnxietyProne

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The ban on religion is hyberbole, obviously. However there is a bit of a confliction, because so long as the church preaches that birth control is wrong, then you are going to continue to get unwanted pregnancies. Though tbf they also teach that abortion is wrong, so i don't know how many abortions occur from the devoutly religious.

As for the education regard, I was taught about sex in high school biology. I don't know if they still do it.

Condoms were given out freely to anyone and everyone at both my high school and college. But again, you cant' force people to wear them and if guys don't have to, they wont. Then you have another question on top of that. If you wanted to provide some sort of birth control program to people, how would you deliver that BC? Would everyone get a box of condoms every month in the mail from the government? Which also means that whatever condom maker didn't get the government contract is basically out of business because why buy any when you get a free supply right in the mail?

But let's say you have everything that has been suggested. Great, free, sex ed programs that are given to kids in high school AND everyone that wants them outside of that. Free BC to everyone.

And STILL people are getting knocked up with babies they don't want. What then?
How well did telling people "Never have sex or you're a bad person and going to Hell" work?

NO! It's NOT clear to a lot of people! Because there are parent and religious groups that actively push to prevent ANY discussion of stuff like that in schools, and so the kids know none of the actual facts about sex and reproduction. They're often fed some religious BS about sin and other nonsense crap that has no actual use related to sex education, and then they are at a loss on what to do, and where they can go for help, when they are suddenly facing their own raging hormones, and a irrepressible urge to satisfy those hormones. I think you are incredibly clueless about just how fucking stupid and ignorant a LOT of people in the US are, particularly in states that are fundamentally christian, like texas. I live in Alabama, and I've had people talk to me, and illustrating their complete lack of understanding of shit you and I probably learned in the 3rd fucking grade. Basic shit, and without fail, from my experience, these people are hyper religious, and think that the bible is all you need to guide you through life, and they base their entire outlook (and voting habits) off of this.
100 times THIS!

I know people like think the United States consists of nothing but major cities, but NEWS FLASH, it doesn't!

When girls in the 21st fucking century actually are scared of getting pregnant by sitting on the wrong toilet seat or through urine, SOMETHING IS FUCKING WRONG IN HOW WE'RE TEACHING THIS SHIT!
 
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Buyetyen

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The ban on religion is hyberbole, obviously. However there is a bit of a confliction, because so long as the church preaches that birth control is wrong, then you are going to continue to get unwanted pregnancies. Though tbf they also teach that abortion is wrong, so i don't know how many abortions occur from the devoutly religious.
You'd be surprised. Abortion clinics all have stories of the same people protesting them coming in secret for an abortion, insistent that their case is different, and then going right back to protesting the clinic the next day. The cultural conservative approach to sex is ultimately self-defeating in its stated goals, but the real reason they do it is not for any kind of principle about the importance and seriousness of sexual relations, but for power. It's another way of exercising control over people's lives.

As for the education regard, I was taught about sex in high school biology. I don't know if they still do it.
My high school sex ed consisted of "VD = bad" and that was about it. In other parts of the country, it's non-existent. If you got an actual education on the topic, count yourself lucky and appreciate it a little more than you do now.

Condoms were given out freely to anyone and everyone at both my high school and college. But again, you cant' force people to wear them and if guys don't have to, they wont. Then you have another question on top of that. If you wanted to provide some sort of birth control program to people, how would you deliver that BC? Would everyone get a box of condoms every month in the mail from the government? Which also means that whatever condom maker didn't get the government contract is basically out of business because why buy any when you get a free supply right in the mail?
Why not have all contraceptives covered under health insurance? Of course, this also would ideally be in a single-payer healthcare system...

But let's say you have everything that has been suggested. Great, free, sex ed programs that are given to kids in high school AND everyone that wants them outside of that. Free BC to everyone.

And STILL people are getting knocked up with babies they don't want. What then?
Legal abortion. Sometimes the most responsible thing you can do is admit when you're not ready to be a parent.
 
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CriticalGaming

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If we actually did educate everyone on sex, pregnancy, dangers etc and everyone was informed but it still happened. Then you would have an argument that they knew the risks and did it anyway, so now they are stuck with the kid. But we don't, sex ed can run anywhere from giving you all the info, to someone just saying don't worry about sex since you can't have it till you are married.
Yeah but I feel even the most basic sex ed still would inform people that this is how babies get made. I find it hard to believe that any sexual education could possibly skip that fact.

Pregnancies aren't the result of a virus, or STD (technically) and i understand the call for more education if this conversation was about the paid treatment of preventable diseases like HIV. But it isn't. Pregnancy is not an obscure thing that happens from sex, it is literally the sole purpose of the act, biologically speaking.

I just don't really see what difference in terms of pregnancy and the rates of abortion education would matter. Unless you want the law to say, "Well you were educated and you knew all the risks, but you did it anyway so no abortion for you dummy." Then okay I suppose.

Legal abortion. Sometimes the most responsible thing you can do is admit when you're not ready to be a parent.
What's the justification line of abortion versus signing the child up for adoption when born? If you just don't want the kid, then fine there is still a way out of being a parent and there are many parents who can't have kids who would take yours gladly. LBGT couple for example.

Having to go through with the pregnancy is natures punishment for the sex is it not?

Now in cases of forced sex, rape, or manipulation, or underaged pregnancy then I wouldn't hold anyone accountable. My point of view is strictly from two people having consensual unprotected sex.

Why not have all contraceptives covered under health insurance? Of course, this also would ideally be in a single-payer healthcare system...
Mostly because the development of drugs is a lot more expensive than a rubber dick-sleeve. And because birth control isn't always medically used for BC. There are other applications such as controlling severe periods, dealing with dangerous mood swings, and protecting people who might have blood disorders in which a period is very dangerous.

Also some women are allergic to certain BC forms, which is why there are 11 different (last i heard) BC methods available for women. All of which have a wide variety of expense ranges. From pills, to IUD's, to shots, to patches, to surgeries, all sorts of shit.

So it is a fine thing to say, "oh just make BC free", but which one? All of them? So the girl who needs a $50 patch gets that, but the girl who needs a $2500 implant should also get that? There is too much disperity in the costs to make it universal.

Except condoms. Which every guy can wear. Even those allergic to latex they make sheep skin condoms you can buy as alternatives.

Then there are the outliers because BC is not 100% effective so you still run the risk of unwanted babies. Though admittedly, with all that BC in use, an unwanted child still coming from that is highly unlikely and there wouldn't need to be many abortions in that situation. So manly the problem comes from the wide range of cost and effective method differences.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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TheMysteriousGX

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What's the justification line of abortion versus signing the child up for adoption when born? If you just don't want the kid, then fine there is still a way out of being a parent and there are many parents who can't have kids who would take yours gladly. LBGT couple for example.
The $10,000 hospital bill, massive biological changes over the course of most of a year, and not insignificant risk of death
 
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Avnger

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The $10,000 hospital bill, massive biological changes over the course of most of a year, and not insignificant risk of death
Just going to also add on that there are hundreds of thousands of US children stuck in the adoption/state/foster care system currently. Adding more kids is simply going to continue to overwhelm them (even more than they already are).
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Hell, job disruptions, working while pregnant, being able to affords taking weeks or months off the job without going homeless is a huge privilege. And that's if everything goes well

Just going to also add on that there are hundreds of thousands of US children stuck in the adoption/state/foster care system currently. Adding more kids is simply going to continue to overwhelm them (even more than they already are).
Yep, hundreds of thousands of kids who actually want to be adopted, but pro-birth advocates are waiting by the "millions" to adopt infants, or so they claim, while shaming anybody who wants to drop off infants to be put into the system.
 

Agema

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Just going to also add on that there are hundreds of thousands of US children stuck in the adoption/state/foster care system currently. Adding more kids is simply going to continue to overwhelm them (even more than they already are).
Cut their child benefits welfare so they have fewer babies. Obviously.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Yeah but I feel even the most basic sex ed still would inform people that this is how babies get made. I find it hard to believe that any sexual education could possibly skip that fact.

Pregnancies aren't the result of a virus, or STD (technically) and i understand the call for more education if this conversation was about the paid treatment of preventable diseases like HIV. But it isn't. Pregnancy is not an obscure thing that happens from sex, it is literally the sole purpose of the act, biologically speaking.

I just don't really see what difference in terms of pregnancy and the rates of abortion education would matter. Unless you want the law to say, "Well you were educated and you knew all the risks, but you did it anyway so no abortion for you dummy." Then okay I suppose.
Well, you also encounter situations where they will tell kids that sex causes pregnancy but then not really tell kids what sex is. There was a time when you could say the internet would have answers but with the amount of parental blocking you can do nowadays, its never been easier to keep your kids ignorant. You really need to understand how crappy sex education can be in the states. Plus, the logic leaps that kids can make and adults discomfort with talking about sex stuff with kids. Way back when if you were a kid, you would either see animals doing it or probably your parents since living in a one or 2 room hut or something was pretty common. Actually talking about it is hard and a lot of people still have this weird view of kids being innocent and that being good.
 

CriticalGaming

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Cut their child benefits welfare so they have fewer babies. Obviously.
Actually this is also a big point in regards to the BC, but I dunno how relevant it is the abortion.

The $10,000 hospital bill, massive biological changes over the course of most of a year, and not insignificant risk of death
I don't know how dangerous pregnancy actually is, with the advent of modern medicine. But you are right about the bill if you tack on another zero. i believe child birth runs in the 100k range depending on the type of birth. So you do have a big point there.

Basically what we have going on is no good solution really. You can't provide universal BC, because there are too many differences that factor in.

Really i guess the only solution is to allow revolving door abortion. HOWEVER if we tax the fuck out of it. That might encourage people to be safer with sex maybe?

Like if the couple involved got a big bill for the abortion, (though to be fair I don't know if it already is expensive), but let's say a prohibitive cost could be a controlling factor right? And the politicians would get to watch tax dollars roll in from it which would also make them more likely to allow abortion freely.

A woman's right to choose doesn't mean they have a right to a special procedure for free or cheap. Right now in the US based on the planned parenthood site, an abortion is only 0-1500 dollars. Because medical insurance covers them sometimes. So maybe by making them expensive outside of emergency situations it would help people take better care of themselves sexually?

I dunno.
 

Buyetyen

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What's the justification line of abortion versus signing the child up for adoption when born?
Are you volunteering to carry that child for 9 months in your womb and the subsequent 48 hours of labor needed to birth it? And are you willing to pay all the costs out of pocket?

Having to go through with the pregnancy is natures punishment for the sex is it not?
No, because nature does not have an intent. It neither rewards nor punishes, it just is. If you hate religion so much, maybe don't assign teleological intent to natural processes.

Mostly because the development of drugs is a lot more expensive than a rubber dick-sleeve. And because birth control isn't always medically used for BC. There are other applications such as controlling severe periods, dealing with dangerous mood swings, and protecting people who might have blood disorders in which a period is very dangerous.
And this is an argument against making contraceptives something covered by insurance because....?

So it is a fine thing to say, "oh just make BC free", but which one? All of them? So the girl who needs a $50 patch gets that, but the girl who needs a $2500 implant should also get that? There is too much disperity in the costs to make it universal.
Which is a bit like saying lung cancer patients shouldn't be covered because chemo and radiation therapy are expensive compared to asthma inhalers.

Then there are the outliers because BC is not 100% effective so you still run the risk of unwanted babies. Though admittedly, with all that BC in use, an unwanted child still coming from that is highly unlikely and there wouldn't need to be many abortions in that situation.
It's like you get it, and yet you don't.
 

CriticalGaming

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Well, you also encounter situations where they will tell kids that sex causes pregnancy but then not really tell kids what sex is. There was a time when you could say the internet would have answers but with the amount of parental blocking you can do nowadays, its never been easier to keep your kids ignorant. You really need to understand how crappy sex education can be in the states. Plus, the logic leaps that kids can make and adults discomfort with talking about sex stuff with kids. Way back when if you were a kid, you would either see animals doing it or probably your parents since living in a one or 2 room hut or something was pretty common. Actually talking about it is hard and a lot of people still have this weird view of kids being innocent and that being good.
Well that makes sense in terms of the younger people. But look at this. https://www.kff.org/womens-health-p...0&sortModel={"colId":"Location","sort":"asc"}

89% of abortions are women over 20 years old. I understand being a stupid kid, but you are talking about stupid adults for the most part here. And maybe you can argue that 20 year olds are still kids and stupid, but at some point you can't just keep blindly fucking and use ignorance as an excuse. These are adults.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Well that makes sense in terms of the younger people. But look at this. https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/state-indicator/distribution-of-abortions-by-age/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel={"colId":"Location","sort":"asc"}

89% of abortions are women over 20 years old. I understand being a stupid kid, but you are talking about stupid adults for the most part here. And maybe you can argue that 20 year olds are still kids and stupid, but at some point you can't just keep blindly fucking and use ignorance as an excuse. These are adults.
Just giving % doesn't really mean much since those under 19 will be having less sex anyway. So we would expect those numbers to be much lower.
 

McElroy

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What's the justification line of abortion versus signing the child up for adoption when born? If you just don't want the kid, then fine there is still a way out of being a parent and there are many parents who can't have kids who would take yours gladly.
Woman's autonomy over her own body. I'd even add that they have a right to keep their genes to themselves though then again carrying a defective baby to term is immoral on its own.
89% of abortions are women over 20 years old. I understand being a stupid kid, but you are talking about stupid adults for the most part here. And maybe you can argue that 20 year olds are still kids and stupid, but at some point you can't just keep blindly fucking and use ignorance as an excuse. These are adults.
They can learn new things at the abortion clinic then. They have the obligation to if you ask me.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Really i guess the only solution is to allow revolving door abortion. HOWEVER if we tax the fuck out of it. That might encourage people to be safer with sex maybe?

Like if the couple involved got a big bill for the abortion, (though to be fair I don't know if it already is expensive), but let's say a prohibitive cost could be a controlling factor right? And the politicians would get to watch tax dollars roll in from it which would also make them more likely to allow abortion freely.

A woman's right to choose doesn't mean they have a right to a special procedure for free or cheap. Right now in the US based on the planned parenthood site, an abortion is only 0-1500 dollars. Because medical insurance covers them sometimes. So maybe by making them expensive outside of emergency situations it would help people take better care of themselves sexually?

I dunno.
How does "screw poor people" even theoretically help this situation? What is the thought process here?
 
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davidmc1158

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Well, you also encounter situations where they will tell kids that sex causes pregnancy but then not really tell kids what sex is. There was a time when you could say the internet would have answers but with the amount of parental blocking you can do nowadays, its never been easier to keep your kids ignorant. You really need to understand how crappy sex education can be in the states. Plus, the logic leaps that kids can make and adults discomfort with talking about sex stuff with kids. Way back when if you were a kid, you would either see animals doing it or probably your parents since living in a one or 2 room hut or something was pretty common. Actually talking about it is hard and a lot of people still have this weird view of kids being innocent and that being good.
Unfortunately, the internet where they theoretically could learn about the facts regarding sex ed is also the same internet that has taught more than a few people that the earth is flat, the moon landings were fake (because the moon is a hologram, obviously) and that evolution is the work of Satan on earth. One of the benefits the internet was supposed to provide was making it easier than ever to educate as many people as possible. The correlating problem is that is has also made it easier than ever to spread bullsh*t as far and wide as possible too.
 

CriticalGaming

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And this is an argument against making contraceptives something covered by insurance because....?
I explained that already. Too many different birth control requirements with too many differing costs. You couldn't uniformly insure people that way and over the counter BC is cheap. AND sex is optional. Which is the biggest reason. People don't have to have sex to live, so it isn't technically a life requirement and therefore not worth insuring medically.

It can be insured if the BC provides a medical benefit for the person, in which their periods are dangerous or whatever. IIRC some insurances DO cover BC in those cases.

Also it should be noted that insurances typically do not cover over-the-counter medicine. If your doctor writes a perscription for Tylenol, your insurance doesn't cover that and you just have to buy a bottle off the shelf. Which rules out coverage on condoms.

Which is a bit like saying lung cancer patients shouldn't be covered because chemo and radiation therapy are expensive compared to asthma inhalers.
Different situation. People don't typically choose to get cancer. People get cancers for all sorts of reasons, and it's not always because they smoked or whatever cancer it is. Brain cancer in babies is just because they got a bad dice roll. So it doesn't equate to sexual contact honestly.