The Big Picture: A Disturbance In The Force

Farther than stars

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Trishbot said:
Farther than stars said:
Actually, it's not true that those directors didn't add their own vision to those pre-existing works. Making a film is about more than just the plot. You have to factor in so many more elements: pacing, editing, composition, colour pallet, etc. And that's where directors really get to show their creativity. That's what I think Bob meant by the prequels being better than anything Abrams will (probably) make, because "The Phantom Menace" actually excels in all of those areas; it's just that the plot doesn't develop beyond being a backstory for Darth Vader.

P.S. And the acting was bad. There was that too.

P.P.S. With the notable exceptions of Ewan McGregor and Liam Neeson.
You are correct, but you're also right in saying that a film is rarely one person's "singular" vision. A great film is backed up by the vision of many people, from the actors to the editors to the director and screenwriter and musician. The original cut of "The Godfather" was deemed unwatchable until a talented editor salvaged the film through amazing editing. The original 2001: A Space Odyssey tossed out its entire soundtrack in favor of the one audiences now recall as forever linked to the visuals on screen. Little details all collaboratively shape a film's "vision", so no director has "one unique" vision.

But on that same subject, I would argue that the prequel trilogy (let's say The Phantom Menace in particular) is filled with areas where it FAILS to excel in nearly every area. The pacing is incredibly bad, plodding, and meandering. Entire subplots are brought up and dropped. Minor scenes take up massive chunks of screentime. The finale itself alternates between the epic and tragic battle of Darth Maul and the Jedis and the wacky shenanigans of Jar Jar and the giddy cheese of 8-year-old Anakin accidentally blowing up a star ship. The composition of shots is largely lacking due to an over-reliance of CG that prevents proper staging to take place and forces actors to, by and large, just stand around or sit down, or they'll throw in copious amounts of CG that your eye struggles to follow. The CG, itself, is very bad, not in terms of technology, but in terms of violating a very important rule CG artists (like myself) are taught, which is to make a world look "lived in". That means make it dirty. Make it scratched and rusted and grimy and worn and lived in. The original Star Wars is a world that looks lived in and worn in, while the new one has everything pristine and clean and flawless, fresh off the factory floor no matter where they go. It looks fake because the artists didn't take the time to add in the little details that make it look real and believable.

Couple that with bad writing, several bouts of bad acting, a bad story, a lack of any central protagonist whatsoever, and it's a mess of a film that had more wrong than just its director (though he was certainly the one most responsible).

The only thing I can safely say that is "good" about the film without fail is John William's musical score.
I concede that "excel" was a poorly chosen word on my part. Although I still think that the film tries out some interesting visual ideas. Contrasting different settings, such as an underwater city with a desert planet is almost as aesthetically palpable as the techno-organic contrast between the Death Star and Endor. So for all the film's faults it's not as if it was entirely without creative ideas.
But your "lived in" theory is pretty interesting. I'll keep an eye out for the floors if I ever watch The Phantom Menace again (which won't be on purpose, let me tell you).
 

gorfias

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The Gentleman said:
I do find it odd that they picked the same guy who did Star Trek to do Star Wars. They're two almost entirely different franchises that share only a word and a target audience demographic.

Think about that: other than the general "sci fi" genre, what exactly do the two series have in common from a content perspective?
A large ensemble of great characters like, for instance, "Lost". (Though, Star Wars, if done right, will concentrate almost totally on brand new characters while Star Trek re vitalized old ones.)

I think he can do this. He may blow it.

Bob mentions some names he thinks better, but they, and just about any other big name, have delivered mixed bags (especially the Hellboy director).

The best point Bob makes is that this guy may leave us thinking, "wow! That was a totally C+ to B -! Not a D! But no one thinking, "home run!"

But he re-sparked interest in Star Trek. That was no small feat. I hate his time travel and quantum physics stuff, but he is like the anti-Cameron. He is terrific with his characters, actors and dialogue. He may really do great in this!

I've read the writer of Toy Story 3 will write the next Star Wars. A buddy of mine was dismayed thinking that just a kid movie. I insisted he watch the following and appears to have changed his mind.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escape-to-the-movies/1809-Toy-Story-3
 

templar1138a

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I don't think it's the fans who want the movie to be safe (though they certainly haven't shown themselves to be open to changes in "their" franchise). In all fairness, a lot of fanboys - as you've pointed out - are STILL griping about the prequels. It's understandable if Disney wants to use a director who's not bad but doesn't have any vision. That puts him on the level of George Lucas in terms of ability (face it, his action sequences were awesome), but he doesn't have the same "This is my franchise" motivation that pissed off so many entitled, self-centered twits... I mean, fanboys.

I'm okay with Abrams directing it, honestly. He knows how to do action sequences, that's for sure, and that's what brings me back to the Star Movies whenever they're shown in theaters. What I'm hoping is that the writers will do a much better job than George Lucas. THAT was his major shortcoming. "Scruffy-looking nerf-herder" is why I believe the prequels were no worse than the original trilogy.
 

ZippyDSMlee

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RedDeadFred said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
RedDeadFred said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
Red X said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
trty00 said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
Everyone wants safer that's why it sells. What about the Noland Batman films, his vision was a bit off....
Nolan's vision was dark and realistic, that's not too far off for Batman
Albeit for parts of 1 and 2 it might as well been a new IP. >>
for me Nolan's Batman films where great as films but not so much as Batman films with the exception of TDK. And really you can't really use Batman, that's not fair. Batman is Bigger and more profitable than most franchises
Its a simple action trope that is easy to do its just not cloned to ad nasuam like everything else.
I know this is going to sound condescending but you really should take some time to play this game. Heck, even Bob prefaced his video by explaining that it was just his opinion.
http://pbskids.org/arthur/games/factsopinions/factsopinions.html
LOL

I dunno everything in media these days is about the safe route and screwing over the fiction(or mechanics/depth for games) to make it more pliable to the public. It dose not always result in something being very bad but it tends to degrade the content harshly.

For me Batman 3 was as bad as Batman and Robin only it was more boring....which is a shame since I had to sit through the Gorilla suit scene wondering WTF. Bane didn't hurt brains as much since I snoozed through it.... LOL

But seriously boil batman down, what are its main plot points? Gadgets, Quasi detective/mystery work, Costumes, Big explosions, Action scenes I mean its 1 point away from Mission Imposable. Mind you Batman has a larger more devise mythos to pull from as dose most comic series but when they toss it out to do "something new" I get ticked off because they missed the point of the fiction they are trying to make a film from.

/rant
/ramble
/rage
/wonders off to cry in corner...
See I liked it because it explored the idea that Bruce Wayne might be able to do more good for the city just as Bruce Wayne than as Batman. I thought they raised some really great points. I guess it's hard to put my finger on it but for me, what puts all of the Nolan's Batman movies above all of the generic action movies (or even good action movies) is the emotional impact it has on me. Maybe I just have an easier time connecting with these movies but every time I see any of the 3, I always feel emotionally drained afterwards (in a good way).

I guess I don't mind how much Nolan deviates from the comics as much as others. I do see that as being a common complaint but I really don't mind. Nolan set out to tell his own story that is influenced by the comics. In my mind, he succeeded rather spectacularly. I can see how it could bother you though.

Also, thanks for taking my jape in such a lighthearted way. After I posted that reply I thought: "hmm, maybe that wasn't the best idea." I figured I was either going to get the response you gave me or pure rage.
You can do that and still do a normal batman world, trying so hard to warp the fiction around quasi realty is never a good thing IMO. It has its own world no need to go out of your way to make a new one. Even more so since most of the characters 2 or 3 variations.

I tend to post harsh,fast and crazed first then if anyone one responds try and explain myself in a reasonable manner.

All in all Bane was just a horrible mishmash, IMO it would have not got my back up if they called im anything else. Then again Bane was some sort of master stagiest so 2 out 4(make that 5 pooky bear lulz) things is not so bad I guess.... I guess when it comes down to it I try and like the things they do but they make it so hard too.
 

RA92

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daibakuha said:
Raiyan 1.0 said:
TheRealGoochman said:
I completely disagree with MB, I personally am pretty content with JJ Abrams. Star Wars is a (amazingly done, and I will sell my soul to the original 3 and many of the expanded universe stories) Science Fiction adventure movie nothing more nothing less.
Star Wars is fantasy space opera.
Star Wars is most definitely science fiction. Space opera is just a subgenre of science fiction and many, many others fall into the same category (including Star Trek and Mass Effect).
I dunno, Star Wars to me definitely falls into the fantasy genre more. Star Trek and Mass Effect at least uses a bit of handwavium to explain their fictitious tech, but Star Wars goes full out space magic when it comes to The Force.
 

daibakuha

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FelixG said:
Did it ever occur to you that he could just talk in his natural boston accent for the whole clip instead of bouncing in and out of his standardized accent instead of just being lazy?
You act like bouncing in and out is two different things. I live in New England, it's much more in and out, like it is here.

Raiyan 1.0 said:
I dunno, Star Wars to me definitely falls into the fantasy genre more. Star Trek and Mass Effect at least uses a bit of handwavium to explain their fictitious tech, but Star Wars goes full out space magic when it comes to The Force.
The "hand-waving" is there, it's just not the focus of most of the material. I would even argue that in Star Trek and Mass Effect that the "hand-waving" is just as de-emphasized.
 

kordan11

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People realise Abrams only kicked off Lost and Fringe and pretty much left both of these series after 1-2 seasons right?

I just have to point it out, because I'm seeing huge posts written by people judging Abrams based on these shows while being totally ignorant of this fact.
 

cerebus23

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eh thank god its not lucas and not bay.....

abrahms has at lest shown an ability to make an ok movie when he gets a good script. like super 8.

and it still boggles my mind that rlm likes the trek reboot i cant stand it.

still he could be handed a good script as long as he does not start shooting all the action scenes inside breweries it could lest look ok.
 

Ashley Blalock

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I find that I end up in a lot of geek debates people will say a movie wasn't too bad, the movie was okay, or the movie had the same quality as an old poorly made TV show. We aren't living in an age when good enough is good enough any more. In an age that can give us epic films and studios willing to put huge budgets on films it's a shame to deal with mediocrity.
 

Aetrion

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Rblade said:
I will guess you haven't read the starwars books, played the starwars shooter/RTS/MMO. I think the star wars universe is exactly as expanded and diverse as older mythologies. Do some googling and you will find a timeline and score of characters so immense that it could literally contain ANY movie you would want to make. Sure not everything is exactly cannon but it has spawned an immense amount of content and depth. Or is that not what you meant?
I know about the expanded universe and I have played a lot of the games, but those are all just made to fit what's there. There is no capacity to reimagine the world and put your own spin on it. Even the new Star Trek movie played it really safe, despite a ton of visual upgrades and minor character tweaks.
 

Kragg

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Occams_Razor said:
Holy Boston Accent Batman!

Something must be tweaking a nerve in Bob...can't imagine what...
its been like that for weeks, he should stick to one or the other, it annoys me alot that it slips and slides
 

Azuaron

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ferdinand82 said:
Azuaron said:
Bob complains that Abrams doesn't have any vision, but I assert that Abrams' vision is obscured by his constraints. If you watch Abrams' TED talk, you'll find that Abrams loves mysteries, and that's why he got into film making, and is also why the first season of Lost was so great.
Abrams loves mysteries but doesn't get it. Look at X-files. Each time you get a mystery and it gets resolved. That is fun because it makes your mind wander. Lost just had mysteries upon mysteries without any resolution. Like listening to the story of a mad man that just tells stuff that pops in his head. Fringe has the same problem. There are no rules in Fringe anything can happen it is all magic. So I don't care about what happens because there is no story. Anything can happen and it means nothing.
Unresolved mysteries aren't necessarily bad, it's just how they're handled. First season Lost (when Abrams was involved)? Great. Fourth season Lost (when Abrams was not involved)? Terrible.

Look at Cloverfield. We didn't get half an hour of expository dialog about where the creature came from, it's mating habits, what it's motivations were, and the biology of the small runner things that dropped off of it. It was just: here is this monstrous thing. Survive. And it worked better without all that extraneous detail than it would have with it, and the fans get to make up interesting stories about what had happened and what it was.
 

Bazaalmon

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I know I'm jumping in pretty late here, but I saw MI3, Super 8, and Star Trek. Even though I saw them pretty recently, I had to look them up on the internet because I can't for the life of me remember a single thing about them. They were just pretty and explodey, without a whole lot of content to go along with it. I'll probably catch a lot of flak for this, but I feel that Abrams is just a more decent and grown-up version of Michael Bay. Bay specializes in explody terribleness, and Abrams specializes in explodey decentness. His movies aren't bad by any means; There's just no real heart or soul or vision that I could see, just "HEY! Look at this! Cool right?! Give me your money!" I'd rather chance a horrible clusterfuck/amazingly brilliant movie rather than flat-out average. As MovieBob said, He's safe. That's it. Star Wars deserves better.
 

Sonic Doctor

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Sylveria said:
Disclaimer: I hate JJ Abrams and I'm going to ***** about it and will unconditionally hate the new Star Trek AND Star Wars movies based purely on this notion regardless of their quality.
You can't really talk about the last new Star Trek movie and discuss quality, at least not about good quality.

That last movie showed me that we most likely won't get proper Star Trek movies or television again.

It definitely didn't feel like Abrams was shooting for quality with that last movie. It felt like a name grab cash in. Star Trek fans would come for the name, and they decided to go with young and inexperienced actors to draw in more of the young crowd.

For the vast most part, the new Star Trek was one big action scene with barely any story development. Heck, I was horrified when I left the theater and shocked to the point that I couldn't tell at first what I had watched.

I will hand it to them that they pulled a big somewhat ass-saving maneuver, by making it a reboot in an alternate reality/dimension. There would have been more of a shit-storm if they had made a canon reality story in the style of that movie.

I haven't watched much of any of Abrams shows, but when I heard he had control of that new Star Trek movie, and that everybody was saying how good he was, I thought maybe it would be good. But now after that mockery he made, I really can't trust him with anything sci-fi or anything that is established for that matter. And now I feel sorry for Star Wars, because with Abrams at the helm, it's going to end up sucking harder than Jar-Jar, if that is even possible.

Urh said:
I still think Bob is being too generous in regards to Abram's Star Trek. As a dumb sci-fi/action movie, it's average at best, but as a Star Trek movie it's terrible. Empty is the perfect word to describe it. It felt like a movie masquerading around in a Star Trek skin suit, not unlike the bug in Men in Black.
Totally agree. Of course it felt empty. The new Star Trek movie was just a cash in action flick; the type of movie where the story and the integrity of the subject matter take a back seat to the action scenes and things that the makers think will make their movie hip and cool to the youth.

The sickening thing...the last I heard about the supposed new Star Trek television series, is that they want to make it more like the new movie than the established old series/canon. Gene Roddenberry is rolling in his grave.
 

Thedutchjelle

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All this complaining about Star Wars all the time >_>
I liked the prequels. Hell, I even saw them before I saw the "sequeks". I doubt it will matter who makes the movie, he or she will always do wrong in the eyes of the fans who've been bashing the same movies for a decade now.
 

Markunator

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darksakul said:
I also notice TV, Movies, Video Games and even books has gotten blah or mediocre lately.
Examples? Because, for instance, when we have TV shows like Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones, it's hard to argue that TV has gotten mediocre.