The Big Picture: Combat Evolved?
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
The UNSC? Pure and noble? You know, the guys who kidnap children so they can forcibly turn them into soldiers in a process which is guaranteed to kill nearly all of them?
Pfff, yeah, Bob really knows what he's talking about.
Obvious troll is obvious.
Pfff, yeah, Bob really knows what he's talking about.
Obvious troll is obvious.
Except that it was really about Halo, and it is ridiculous to use Halo as the springboard for those arguments. Bob constantly jumped out of discussion to mock Bungie for things that either they had no control over or which mades no sense whatsoever if you're even remotely familiar with Halo's story.Freeze_L said:
...Unless most of your familiarity with Halo's story is Reach, and you viewed it without any outside context.
When criticising the imagery of something, it helps to have at a good idea of what that something actually is. If his using Halo as a springboard for that argument had been even remotely reasonable, or if he had spent the argumentative time being interesting instead of just flaming Bungie, I'd probably agree with you.
The Spartans were created to put down rebellious human colonies who had funny ideas like self-governance. If it weren't for genocidal space goblins turning up out of the blue, the UNSC would be the biggest bunch of bastards in the universe.jamesworkshop said:
The threat of the Covenant is not that of "racial mixing", nor is their threat one of diversity. The threat of the Covenant is their blind loyalty to a false religion propagated by the Prophet Hierarchs to hide the fact that Humanity is the legacy and part of the lineage of the Forerunners, the ancient race who saved the galaxy from the horiffic plague of The Flood. The Covenant itself has not only been largely enslaved and indoctrinated into believing a false religion by the High Prophets, it is being used to wage a Holy War against anyone in their path as they search the galaxy for the artifacts of the Forerunners, with a focus on the Galactically Genocidal Halo Rings originally built to eradicate the Flood, the infectious intergalactic parasite whose only motive is to devour all life in the universe.
Humanity is not waging a war on the Covenant the way a race purist would on those different from them, they are protecting themselves from the invasion of The Covenant on their genocidal campaign. They are largely unaware of the existence of the Forerunners until the final years of the Human-Covenant War, not knowing the true intentions of the Covenant until 2552, nearly thirty years after first contact on Harvest.
The SPARTAN program, originally commisioned by Dr. Catherine Halsey in early 2500 to prepare for a rebel uprising between Earth's colonies, was rife with doubts. Halsey was constantly questioning her methods and the way she treated her soldiers. The SPARTANS were meant to be the final line of defense and true soldiers in every sense of the word, having been taught battle from an early age. Halsey herself expressed that what she had done to the children was terrible and part of her hated herself for doing it, but she kept to her task. The SPARTANS were an idea that progressed into a full blown experiment which proved instrumental in the victory of humanity in the Human-Covenant War. Their motives were questionable and their origins were shady, but the SPARTANS proved to be an indespensible asset to the UNSC and Earth's colonies. If anything, the SPARTAN program is meant to show both sides of the military industrial complex, originally thought up by politicians fearing an uprising but then controlled and run by scientists who tried their best to keep their soldiers human while still training them to the best of their abilities. The genetic augmentation of SPARTAN soldiers was one of the riskiest parts of the program and in fact resulted in the deaths or deformation of more than a few of the SPARTAN recruits. Halsey doesn't ratiionalize what she's doing and in fact carries the burden of the pain of the SPARTAN program for all her days, but she realizes what the soldiers will mean for humanity, especially after First Contact with the Covenant on Harvest.
Halo doesn't glorify the SPARTAN program nor does it criticize the Covenant. The individiual races of the Covenant were even given personalities in Halo 2 and you truly learned their ways when the High Prophets ordered the executions of High Ranking Elites soldiers and initiated the Changing of the Guard, giving the Brutes, the hulking tribal warriors of the Covenant who follow the religion more devoutly than any other of the Covenant's races, the reigns as the Prophet's Honor Guard. The Grunts are just as blind as the Brutes, but cowardly. The Jackals as bloodthirsty mercenaries who follow the Covenant's religion so the Prophets won't eradicate their race. The Elites prove to be the best of the Covenant when they realize the error of their ways and break away from the Covenant in Halo 2 in the Covenant Civil War.
Bob, I understand where you are getting this Pure Race Vs. Diverse Group War you are talking about, but using Halo Reach as an example of this is a hard sell, because even though Reach is a prequel to the series, it provides a unique perspective in that Reach is invaded, overrun, and glassed without any rationalization given to humanity by the alien invaders. Earth and it's colonies are in the dark until The Pillar of Autumn and Master Chief John-117 land on Halo Installation 04 after escaping the doomed Reach. In my opinion, the bulk of the story is elaborated in Halo 2. Sure many of the little details are found here and there around the expanded universe of the Halo franchise. But I don't think it's fair to look at one specific part of the series and judge the entire universe established within it on it.
With all of that being said, I enjoy the new show and look forward to future topics.
Humanity is not waging a war on the Covenant the way a race purist would on those different from them, they are protecting themselves from the invasion of The Covenant on their genocidal campaign. They are largely unaware of the existence of the Forerunners until the final years of the Human-Covenant War, not knowing the true intentions of the Covenant until 2552, nearly thirty years after first contact on Harvest.
The SPARTAN program, originally commisioned by Dr. Catherine Halsey in early 2500 to prepare for a rebel uprising between Earth's colonies, was rife with doubts. Halsey was constantly questioning her methods and the way she treated her soldiers. The SPARTANS were meant to be the final line of defense and true soldiers in every sense of the word, having been taught battle from an early age. Halsey herself expressed that what she had done to the children was terrible and part of her hated herself for doing it, but she kept to her task. The SPARTANS were an idea that progressed into a full blown experiment which proved instrumental in the victory of humanity in the Human-Covenant War. Their motives were questionable and their origins were shady, but the SPARTANS proved to be an indespensible asset to the UNSC and Earth's colonies. If anything, the SPARTAN program is meant to show both sides of the military industrial complex, originally thought up by politicians fearing an uprising but then controlled and run by scientists who tried their best to keep their soldiers human while still training them to the best of their abilities. The genetic augmentation of SPARTAN soldiers was one of the riskiest parts of the program and in fact resulted in the deaths or deformation of more than a few of the SPARTAN recruits. Halsey doesn't ratiionalize what she's doing and in fact carries the burden of the pain of the SPARTAN program for all her days, but she realizes what the soldiers will mean for humanity, especially after First Contact with the Covenant on Harvest.
Halo doesn't glorify the SPARTAN program nor does it criticize the Covenant. The individiual races of the Covenant were even given personalities in Halo 2 and you truly learned their ways when the High Prophets ordered the executions of High Ranking Elites soldiers and initiated the Changing of the Guard, giving the Brutes, the hulking tribal warriors of the Covenant who follow the religion more devoutly than any other of the Covenant's races, the reigns as the Prophet's Honor Guard. The Grunts are just as blind as the Brutes, but cowardly. The Jackals as bloodthirsty mercenaries who follow the Covenant's religion so the Prophets won't eradicate their race. The Elites prove to be the best of the Covenant when they realize the error of their ways and break away from the Covenant in Halo 2 in the Covenant Civil War.
Bob, I understand where you are getting this Pure Race Vs. Diverse Group War you are talking about, but using Halo Reach as an example of this is a hard sell, because even though Reach is a prequel to the series, it provides a unique perspective in that Reach is invaded, overrun, and glassed without any rationalization given to humanity by the alien invaders. Earth and it's colonies are in the dark until The Pillar of Autumn and Master Chief John-117 land on Halo Installation 04 after escaping the doomed Reach. In my opinion, the bulk of the story is elaborated in Halo 2. Sure many of the little details are found here and there around the expanded universe of the Halo franchise. But I don't think it's fair to look at one specific part of the series and judge the entire universe established within it on it.
With all of that being said, I enjoy the new show and look forward to future topics.
Took it way too far there Bob.
1) "multi culture" is also used to give players a broader spectrum of enemies to shoot. If we shot the same alien over and over that would be lame and Halo would have sucked.
2) "Master race" also know as every other FPS has big male typically white lead characters. Its not that game studios are limited to only this way of thinking (i.e. Square Enox) Its that this stereotype is a safe bet for characters because people buy games that support idea. I don't agree with the current stereotype, I just think its way too far to be calling Bungie Fascist or accusing them of promoting a Master Race agenda. They just go with the market numbers ands thats ALL there is to it.
3) I thought that with Reach Bungie broke that mold of suppressed emotions among the Spartans. Yeah it was rough, and non original but like I said they suck with a formula that works. Also the love plot between Master Chief and Cortana, take that one apart and you will find those suppressed spartan feelings are getting a stiffy!
If you are going to keep doing video games remember this, there are trends that are followed because they are profitable and each game should be viewed from that lens.
1) "multi culture" is also used to give players a broader spectrum of enemies to shoot. If we shot the same alien over and over that would be lame and Halo would have sucked.
2) "Master race" also know as every other FPS has big male typically white lead characters. Its not that game studios are limited to only this way of thinking (i.e. Square Enox) Its that this stereotype is a safe bet for characters because people buy games that support idea. I don't agree with the current stereotype, I just think its way too far to be calling Bungie Fascist or accusing them of promoting a Master Race agenda. They just go with the market numbers ands thats ALL there is to it.
3) I thought that with Reach Bungie broke that mold of suppressed emotions among the Spartans. Yeah it was rough, and non original but like I said they suck with a formula that works. Also the love plot between Master Chief and Cortana, take that one apart and you will find those suppressed spartan feelings are getting a stiffy!
If you are going to keep doing video games remember this, there are trends that are followed because they are profitable and each game should be viewed from that lens.
maybe but that doesn't have any reflection on their fight against the covenant who certainly didn't spent their time activly trying to show humans the power of friendshipGloatingSwine said:
video starts.
Movie bob... I like him
"Although I particularly don't like halo the covenant are cool and diverse" I like halo but the covenant have always interested me the most too.
"bungie is run by fascist racists" wait... what?
This video was all well and good to a point but you are seriously reeding way to much into this. If anything the covenet are more representitive of religous fanaticism than ethnic diversity (play Halo 2). I also liked how moviebob said lets forget about the fact that in halo fiction the covenent are bacicaly a slave army. yes lets put that aside only because it serves to invalidate his claims. Also the commercial he put up with the spartans being created, that wasn't made by bungie. that was made by an outside advertisement company. I get it if moviebob don't care for halo but in this video he's just being a dick. I personally think he owes bungie an apology and Ill stand by that opinion.
Movie bob... I like him
"Although I particularly don't like halo the covenant are cool and diverse" I like halo but the covenant have always interested me the most too.
"bungie is run by fascist racists" wait... what?
This video was all well and good to a point but you are seriously reeding way to much into this. If anything the covenet are more representitive of religous fanaticism than ethnic diversity (play Halo 2). I also liked how moviebob said lets forget about the fact that in halo fiction the covenent are bacicaly a slave army. yes lets put that aside only because it serves to invalidate his claims. Also the commercial he put up with the spartans being created, that wasn't made by bungie. that was made by an outside advertisement company. I get it if moviebob don't care for halo but in this video he's just being a dick. I personally think he owes bungie an apology and Ill stand by that opinion.
Well, the Prophets, or at least the specific 'big three' leading the Covenant are definitely evil; if you dig a bit into the back story (something I don't blame you for not doing, by the way) those three Prophets lied about the human race in an attempt to gain power for themselves. If they were truly following their religion they would be working with humanity, or even worshipping them as descendants of the forerunners. This is a pattern that often appears in work that can be seen as a criticism of religion. They know that directly criticising the blind faith necessary for religion would be a very bad idea, so instead they criticise the blind loyalty that leads to the apparent perversion of religion. Look at Assassin's Creed 2, for example. You beat up the Pope at the end of the game, but this is alright because he wasn't a proper Pope within the story.ShadowKirby said:
And yes, I do think it's going a bit far to analyse a game completely out of context to decide what undertones there are. Compare it to the 'controversy' over Resident Evil 5; out of context, it's about a white man going to Africa and shooting black people. In context it's about a guy killing demonic zombies which merely happen to be in Africa. Same for Halo, out of context it's a single race portrayed as the good guys when fighting a collection of races. In context it's about humanity defending itself against a far greater force that has decided to eradicate them for reasons they don't understand.
i said he doesn't speak or act without you - not that he doesn't speak at all - and you remember this but not the 'black' Sergeant Johnson.Okysho said:
and am sure the gay community would love you using them as 'comic relief...'
A number of things. First, within the ranks of any species in the covenant military you tend to have the same sort of uniformity you see with the ranks of the human military in the games. Second, a very key part of military training involves a number of things:
1) The organization, the mission and all things implied thereof are more important than the self
2) Cooperation is necessary for victory
3) Orders must be followed without hesitation or argument as doing so undermines points one and 2.
The thing is, a military is, by default, fascist in the purest sense. It doesn't matter what army you speak of or what nation it fights for. An army that cannot reasonably expect the bulk of the soldiers to accept those three points to be true and worthy of being true is unlikely to win battles or wars.
1) The organization, the mission and all things implied thereof are more important than the self
2) Cooperation is necessary for victory
3) Orders must be followed without hesitation or argument as doing so undermines points one and 2.
The thing is, a military is, by default, fascist in the purest sense. It doesn't matter what army you speak of or what nation it fights for. An army that cannot reasonably expect the bulk of the soldiers to accept those three points to be true and worthy of being true is unlikely to win battles or wars.
Heh while they could be something to be said about millitaristic sci-fi with far too much testosterone for their own good, being somewhat apologist for dictatorial and racist system from the past, I think the Halo connection not that strong, a lot of the vid feel more like the impression bob had from the small ammount of Halo he knew and didn't bother to research further so it felt lackluster to me. The big picture is there, but the focus at the wrong place. If anything, Halo is derivative from Jingoistic Sci-fi, but I don't think it fully embrace its value, sure the writting shallow most of the time, but that doesn't per se it tell us about the value told the serie itself
Yeah MovieBob, you're right. The guys at the Escapist are a bunch of crazy people for giving you a second show to do.
...GOD BLESS THEM! LOL
Seriously, great show. I'll look forward to the next one a week from now and to the upcoming Escape to the Movies this friday.
...GOD BLESS THEM! LOL
Seriously, great show. I'll look forward to the next one a week from now and to the upcoming Escape to the Movies this friday.
Yay it's a new series. Yay.
Now it's like
Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday
are all good days for visiting the site.
Now it's like
Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday
are all good days for visiting the site.
Yeah, that "analogy" really breaks down when you remember that one of the founding species of the Covenant JOINED the humans in the end. It seems we have a case of selectively going into detail on things that support the argument and completely ignoring everything else. Lets forget that in the beginning the Covenant and humanity could have become friendly if it wasn't for the "shot heard around the galaxy" and the decree of the Covenant leader class (Prophets) that pretty much could be summed up as "fuck those guys". Though this is because they believe the forerunners (the Covenant's false gods) anointed humanity, which does not help my argument. Though the fact that this was not even brought up means that the argument for this was made under little forethought. Its called "big picture" but you have to point to little details like eye change?
That's one interpriation of it.
Or you could be looking way too much into one tiny detail of the series as a whole.
It must be pointed out that in comparison, the Covenent are more 'faceless' than the marines are in the Halo games, most of them have face obscuring masks or identical faces that lack anything in the way of emotive facial features (they aren't that much better than the bugs from Starship Troopers as far as individuality goes), the marines by contrast all have face exposing helmets or are named characters who are involved in the plot (the only 'faceless' humans charaters are the Spartans and ODST, both of whom are player characters and as such, are blank slates for the player to project upon).
There are more kinds of aliens but this is probably something that was created as a result of considerations being given to gameplay (it would be pretty boring if you just had to fight the same guys over and over again, having a multitude of alien races as enemies gives you a good excuse to mix up the gameplay and be creative with design) rather than as the result of a fear of diversity.
Or you could be looking way too much into one tiny detail of the series as a whole.
It must be pointed out that in comparison, the Covenent are more 'faceless' than the marines are in the Halo games, most of them have face obscuring masks or identical faces that lack anything in the way of emotive facial features (they aren't that much better than the bugs from Starship Troopers as far as individuality goes), the marines by contrast all have face exposing helmets or are named characters who are involved in the plot (the only 'faceless' humans charaters are the Spartans and ODST, both of whom are player characters and as such, are blank slates for the player to project upon).
There are more kinds of aliens but this is probably something that was created as a result of considerations being given to gameplay (it would be pretty boring if you just had to fight the same guys over and over again, having a multitude of alien races as enemies gives you a good excuse to mix up the gameplay and be creative with design) rather than as the result of a fear of diversity.
Pretty cool analysis of Halo. Initially I was thinking, "you're reading too much in to it," and suspect Bob hasn't played Halo 3, where we see much mending of the human/alien relations, or at least a glipse in to a more complex web of intrigue for the Covenant, but I have to admit, Halo as a series would be even cooler if it had story campaigns focused on Covenant characters, as well. Imagine a completely separate plotline for the Arbiter or others, parallel with Master Chief's tale, but with different goals and intentions....that would be cool, and also emphasize that the Covenant weren't necessarily bad in any inherent way.
In fact, that got me to thinking about how there aren't too many games that do that anymore. When was the last time we saw that, a split campaign, each part showing the other side's point of view? We need more of this, mixing the black and white and making it all ambiguously gray. That would help inject some ethical complexity in to video games again, I suspect.
In the meantime, I am sure somewhere marketing specialists are continuing to point out how the public prefers to pay for games that don't ask these hard questions....or how sure, a story about Monkey would be cool, but can we replace his weird buddy with a hot navel-exposing chick, and so forth. Ah well.
Look forward to more of this series!
In fact, that got me to thinking about how there aren't too many games that do that anymore. When was the last time we saw that, a split campaign, each part showing the other side's point of view? We need more of this, mixing the black and white and making it all ambiguously gray. That would help inject some ethical complexity in to video games again, I suspect.
In the meantime, I am sure somewhere marketing specialists are continuing to point out how the public prefers to pay for games that don't ask these hard questions....or how sure, a story about Monkey would be cool, but can we replace his weird buddy with a hot navel-exposing chick, and so forth. Ah well.
Look forward to more of this series!