The Big Picture: Combat Evolved?

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camazotz

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Dansrage said:
camazotz said:
xerounlimited said:
Well a new MovieBob show? Sounds good but, we'll have to see where it goes.
From this just this episode I can see the thing I disliked about The Game Overthinker. Which is not that you read in to things to much, it's that you connect dots of things that aren't actually there.
"Okay so covenant diverse... Spartans not... I find the covenant much more interesting." Okay I guess so, I mean you do have a point, I do like learning about different and visually interesting aliens then faceless space marines, I mean thats why I like viewing other cultures then my own, I know about my country and culture already, I want to learn about new, foreign things.

"Spartans are anti diversity" Um, I guess...

"Spartans are shooting for a master race." Wait what? How did we go from diversity of aliens to master race?

I could believe what you were saying if man in the story, wasn't trying protect itself from a crazed alien cult. There aren't any moments in halo where some blonde hair, blue eyed leader of the spartans tells everyone else they must 'purify' the universe of alien lifeforms, but there isn't, this is a story of man protecting himself from a crazed, essentially cult, of aliens.

Anyway, criticism aside congrats on a new show, I'd like to see where this goes. Just please, don't connect ideas that aren't there...

Again I'd like to see where
Think of it this way: what Bob is suggesting (I think) is not that the game is portraying fascists/racists as we tend to imagine them, but rather how fascists/racists see themselves; the minority elite, put upon/threatened by the vast unwashed masses of "Them." The game is basically a sympathetic presentation of how the master race might feel when the barbarians are at the gates, essentially. Also, curiously exactly like that excellent propaganda film about the Spartans in 300, in which the barbarian hordes in that case were the virtually demonic Persians, overwhelming in their number and their endless capacity for evil.....in the eyes of the Spartans, anyway.


It's an interesting and disturbing reversal, and thanks to Bob, I probably will never view Halo the same way again...

A good contrast for a franchise that is in the same vein but which I feel does not do this is Gears of War. Gears reflects a more disturbing conflict, I feel....some sort of vague allegory for the problems between Israel and Palestine, maybe, but with humanity and the Locusts in their stead....a different kind of tragedy in the making.
I get where you're coming from, but i think the point of your opposition is that Bungie didn't sit down one day and say "Lets make a deeply metaphorical and cleverly disguised statement about fascism." They just made a game where you're a cool guy who shoots wierd aliens.
Anything more than that is what people read into it, and lets be honest, you can read whatever you want into anything as complex as the Halo universe.
I could just as easily say halo is sexist because the female protagonist (cortana) is carried everywhere by the stronger male (MC). It doesn't make it any more credible.
Ultimately I agree. One thing I learned in college was just how ridiculously easy it was to read whatever intent you desired to in prose and poetry. I took several writing classes and some poetry classes (yes, I did, great place to meet granola chicks, at least back in the early nineties) and was always amazed at just how much my writing lost in the translation from conception in my head to dramatic reinterpretation by the audience.

Of course, the cool thing about fiction is this exact quality. One could almost say that the highly interpretive nature of a work after its creation says a lot on two levels: the audience's perceptions on the matter, and the sophistication of the work.

Put another way, the mere fact that we can have this conversation about Halo suggests that it is deep enough and/or interesting enough to be worthy of such discussion. If Movie Bob really doesn't like Halo, he should probably just not talk about it, heh!

I mean, we don't hear anyone talking about Fracture or Legendary, do we????? Nope, not unless its the sound of repeated gagging noises and groans of money flushed down the toilet....
 

Brian Hendershot

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Well Bob certainly taught me one thing. If you want your videos to be viewed and talked about alot, just make the fanboys angry.
 

Iron Mal

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camazotz said:
Iron Mal said:
That's one interpriation of it.

Or you could be looking way too much into one tiny detail of the series as a whole.

It must be pointed out that in comparison, the Covenent are more 'faceless' than the marines are in the Halo games, most of them have face obscuring masks or identical faces that lack anything in the way of emotive facial features (they aren't that much better than the bugs from Starship Troopers as far as individuality goes), the marines by contrast all have face exposing helmets or are named characters who are involved in the plot (the only 'faceless' humans charaters are the Spartans and ODST, both of whom are player characters and as such, are blank slates for the player to project upon).

There are more kinds of aliens but this is probably something that was created as a result of considerations being given to gameplay (it would be pretty boring if you just had to fight the same guys over and over again, having a multitude of alien races as enemies gives you a good excuse to mix up the gameplay and be creative with design) rather than as the result of a fear of diversity.
I don't know.... I remember being both disturbed and amused at some of the Covenant dialogue. "It's the demon, get him!" and the at once comical and tragic goofy voices of the little runt guys, right before you blow the hell out of them. In fact, seeing them on Reach speaking their own language....and realizing what that meant, that at a later date they either take the time to learn English or, even worse, Master Chief has a translator and/or understands them (which means his casual annihilation of the little dudes is considerably more callous than I might have imagined, given they are known to be a slave race, and one of the lowest on the totem pole) seemed just sad to me.
I think that their dialogue was translated to English for the sake of players rather than because it's actually what's going on 'in-game' (just like how the announcer in Multiplayer is always speaking in English regardless of what country team he's representing).

A lot of this does seem to be people reading way too much into nothing.
 

duck-man

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Hehe, >500 comments! (Granted it's the first of a series) I think the extra show will pay off, they're not too crazy :D
 

hem dazon 90

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Sober Thal said:
Yep, there goes what little respect I almost had for the movie guy.

Comparing Starship Troopers to Halo. That's so original and thought provoking.

Spartans are just like Hitlers master race... yeah, I guess that was a joke or something.

Bob is way to much an intellectual for me to even try to understand him. I quit.
QFT


Moviebob is quite the annoyance now.
 

NaramSuen

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Jun 8, 2010
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Great episode, I look forward to what else you have to say about other topics. Perhaps you could expand upon why you liked The Watchmen because I can't understand why.
 

Spazwell

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Sep 20, 2010
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In the games, it is humans versus Covenant. In extended universe, it's the UN versus basically everyone. In the games, they only mention the Resistance at the very very very beginning of Reach. And what do these humans rebel against, the Earth based dominance. It's never truly mentioned in game, but UNSC (United Nations Space Command). Bob could have talked about the whole New World Order conspiracy or something.
And yes, generic space marines are pretty commonplace now, but hey, they are still badasses.
I think that whole "Nazi" thing is overthinking it. You could make the same connection to Gears of War, which comes right out and says that the COG is a socialist totalitarian government (Coalition of Ordered Governments was only a small socialist political party before E-Day, but came to power when the actual government toppled under the pressure from the Locust).

But that's a tangent. Big Picture: All videogames are point-click-repeat.
 

FlyAwayAutumn

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May 19, 2009
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Uh... no.

You just read way too into it. That wasn't really the BIG picture it was more like notice things that aren't actually there.

Besides, the spartans all being same? Bungie tried to promote diversity, they at the very least attempted to give the spartans in campaign unique personalities, they also gave so many options for customising your armor in game.

Also take a closer look at the covenant, sure there are different races, but within those races can you honestly tell me that you can distinguish one from the other?

 

Powerman88

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Tipsy Giant said:
I think it's quite the opposite, we don't notice because we have gotten to a point where the majority are not fearful of difference in race and culture
This. Movie bob I have enjoyed your internet video's since the Game Overthinker but really dude? Bungie are Nazi's? I dunno man you lost me. Win me back next week.
 

Tech-Mechanic

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Apr 5, 2010
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Looking forward to more of these shows. Congratulations.

This first one however...

... I don't care much for Halo either but, I think you went a little off the rails on that one, son. They're just games, man.

I personally don't think Bungie is lacing their products with some kind of fascist agenda. But, I'm can't wait to see what you talk about next.
 

mad825

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eh,xenophobia can been seen in all types of media and genres so really this is nothing new and not worth pointing fingers especially at the Halo series when there are plenty of other "liked" series/media that expresses this point even further.
 

Spazwell

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You know, you could look at any zombie movie/game that way. They are different from us. We must kill them all. Zombie genocide. Now just replace the word "zombies" with "jews" or "gays" or "gypsies" and there you go.

Just BTW: I am Jewish myself.
 

Withard

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Feb 4, 2010
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Wow. Just...wow.

This "Big Picture" for all its size completely and utterly MISSED.

I LOVED the confusion over "The Covenant are bad guys??! WTF?!"

Fail.

Consider the following:

1. We tried peace. They just want to eradicate all traces of mankind
2. They want to kill us
3. They is gunna kill us good
4. The Spartans were created to HELP stop us being wiped out (Evil Spartans)
5. The Military complex presented in its form because....We are in danger of being made extinct
6. State Of Emergency
7. BILLIONS have been killed by the Covenant...Hence military is going all "Fascist?"
8. His eyes went blue BECAUSE....He had dark eyes to begin with. Its opposites of the spectrum. Makes for ease of telling the transformation.
9. We are evil because we don't want to die.
10. Maybe the Aliens in independence day were good guys bob.

I haven't even played anything after Halo 2 and this is just making arguments for the sake of arguments.

"OMG They want me for a new show!". Maybe THEY did. We didn't. The movie ones rile enough.
 

Blind Sight

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Brian Hendershot said:
Well Bob certainly taught me one thing. If you want your videos to be viewed and talked about alot, just make the fanboys angry.
Or make misinformed statements that have no real grounding in reality and just shows that your bias is directly affecting how you interpret content. I mean, hell, I'm not even a Halo fan, but I was amazed that he drew such a weird and overthought conclusion. Mario faces off against a large array of enemies with different aspects, while his comrades-in-arms (such as the Toads) are pretty much identical. But of course Mr. Chipman doesn't see closeted racism in that, because he likes Mario. In my field, we have a nickname for what Bob did in this video (i.e. interpret things based off of bias rather then actual content), it's called a 'Virgin Mary Cheese Sandwich'.

camazotz said:
I mean, we don't hear anyone talking about Fracture or Legendary, do we????? Nope, not unless its the sound of repeated gagging noises and groans of money flushed down the toilet....
Well Fracture can serve as a biopunk vs. cyberpunk analysis, I haven't really played the game in awhile but that's what I got out of it, I never played Legendary so I can't comment on that though.
 

CarlsonAndPeeters

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Its funny. Reach is the first Halo game I've owned (after playing lots of splitscreen at friends' houses) and they make no effort to explain who/what the Covenant is. So I wasn't like Movie Bob, questioning the fascist motives of Bungie, but I did want to ask, "why are the covenant evil? why should I care?"
 

Terminate421

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Really? He dedicated an entire weekly episode to bash the Halo franchise? Not to mention, he would insult people who do their fucking job? (Bungie)

Moviebob, or Bob Chipman, isn't the intellectual who I actually thought he was. Hating on something just because it exists is a poor example of ones opinion, and to shove it in our faces makes it all worse. Its like he has to be right about everything. I don't hate people for opinions, only for what they do unto me. Movie bob hasn't crossed that boundry but he's lost thousands of points on my scale....

Also, the blue eyes? Whats with that? Lots of people have blue eyes, does that make them part of the "master race" too?
Its called a game, Halo has never been bad, and its campaign, in the way I see it, is a solid story told excellently. Still far from a game like say....Mass Effect, but they way its told is still powerful enough to be that way.
 

Bruden

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Ok, Bob read deeper into the game than he should have, mostly because it's really just a game that used a faceless protagonist to shove the player into the action more, and a multifaceted enemy to mix up the action.

Now, what's hilarious here, is that the deeper reading that Bob railed about here, is so off base it's hard to believe that someone who's intelligent enough to go searching for the deeper meaning came up so terribly wrong. Most likely this is because from Bob's own admittance he's not a fan of Halo, so he probably hasn't payed any attention to the story line at all if he's even played the other games.

If you draw back and look at the 3 games (reach, wars, and odst don't really count because they added side stories but nothing to the main plot we didn't already know.) the idea that the "pure race" Spartans are the good guys is just plain not there at all. Sure, people assume the Humans are good because we're human and we're playing the humans so obviously we're the good guys. That view doesn't really hold up under scrutiny though. In the course of the 3 primary games the humans let loose the flood into the galaxy and spend 1/2 the time destroying the only tools proven to exterminate the flood. Letting loose the thing that pretty effectively wiped out all life in the galaxy is not exactly what you'd consider a good thing. And while we're at it lets talk about the idea that the writers are supporting the master race Spartan's sameness policy, what is the one thing that rings true for the whole of the series? It doesn't matter what Master Chief is doing, all that spartan gun slinging does nothing to prevent humanity losing every single battle against the covenant. By the end of the second game it's been made clear that Earth is the only remaining human population center. Halo 3's ending leaves an entire continent glassed, people are worried about a little co2 causing global warming, after glassing Africa all of Earth is going to be uninhabitable. So where does that leave humanity? We refused to use the Halo weapon to kill all life in the galaxy, but we also let loose the only reason to use the Halo weapon. The master race Spartans have officially helped the human race survive... not at all, and we have to look to the expanded universe novels to take comfort in the fact that Humans have a couple tiny colonies on Mars and a few moons around Sol to survive on till we can find another habitable world to drop all our refugees on.

Now then, how about the covenant. Obviously they're evil because they're against the humans. Again evidence doesn't really support this. Sure we see some members of the covenant species are evil, the EU novels reveal that the prophets knew fully that humanity was descendant from the forerunners (the covenant's gods) and labeled humans demons because it was more convenient for their religion to survive. But in the games alone we see the elites figure out they've been lied to and switch sides to help the humans hauling along a bunch of grunts who as Bob himself pointed out fight simply because those are the orders and generally in war time disobeying orders tends to get you dead slightly faster than obeying them. And here again we see the issue with the idea that the Halo games are anti diversity, as it's abundantly clear that the Covenant are not only winning, they're winning so hard that their most devoted troops have to flip sides just to stop the humans from going extinct by the end of Halo 3.

The idea that Halo is in anyway promoting the Nazi master race ideals, or is preaching the evils of diversity is the uneducated man's surface reading from the game. The same kind of simplistic insight is what leads people to think Guy Fawkes wanted more freedom in his attempt to blow up Parliament.
 

MatthewGill

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Feb 22, 2010
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First off congrats on the new show, but you missed that the Covenant are "evil" because their prophets are trying to cover up a blemish in their religion. Basically the Forerunners made the Halo rings and stuff and the human race are their decedents and are able to use their technology. The Covenant races can't so the prophets decide to kill humanity in order to cover up this problem. So the Covenant is not a slave army just a religious group that so happens to have Brutes and Elites, two warrior type races that are superior to humans. I see your point but it doesn't match up in context, which is the context of the Halo universe. Still though congrats on the show and I hope I get to watch it each week.