The Big Picture: Destined for Disappointment, Part 2
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
Bob, I expected better from you. I haven't directly addressed you for a while, but I just wanted to say you kind of dropped the ball here. Of everyone on this site, and perhaps in geekdom in general, I would have expected you to get this: 
You yourself at one point made it clear that you kind of "got" how Star Wars was based around more eastern concepts of mysticism and so on. One of the things it also does away with is the western idea of truly free will. The prophecy in the movies is actually adhered to through the entire thing, and following it was always a sort of foregone conclusion.
The key to the prophecy is that the chosen one will "bring balance to the force". If your paying attention the good guys are ruling over a rather peaceful universe, where they don't even need many Jedi to maintain order until around the time the movies start. With good so firmly in charge the only place for them to go to achieve "balance" is down. Sidious working with the prophecy is because he understands that part of it, but makes the mistake of thinking that if the good guys are going down, then it's time for a new Sith empire and he can pretty much get in on the ground floor as it's leader. He's wrong about that too as the prophecy says "balance" not "time for a reign of darkness".
Anakin is the tool the prophecy works through, his entire story arc is that he's so disturbed because he wants to be a good person, but the universe literally forces him to be a bad one. For example when he's just starting to get his ducks in a row, he happens to find his mother being raped and tortured by sand people, and goes on a rather dark side revenge spree as a result.
Luke, later on is pretty much just a factor in what is still Anakin's story when you get down to it. The entire thing is all about him getting Vader to betray the Emperor and prevent the universe from sinking into darkness. At the end of the movie when Vader lobs Sidious into a reactor pit, Anakin has literally brought balance to the force. He tore down The Jedi to the point where there are barely any left, and then he wiped out the leader of the Evil Empire. We have neither a major good force, or a major evil force, calling the shots. Everything is balanced in the force by way of pretty much everyone adhering to either side of the major force philosophy being dead.
This also explains some of the writers fiat, see The Force is playing metaphysical puppet master here. This is why the force is "cloudy" for some people, oftentimes trying to figure out the obvious (mean literally, why can't The Jedi Council sense a Sith Lord 2" away from them?) yet when it's something important that The Force needs done for it's narrative guys like Luke and Vader can literally sense each other across the galaxy, or on a planetary level.
This is also why you have fight scenes where say a Sith Apprentice can kill a Jedi Master, and then lose to another Apprentice with a literal BS move. It's because "The Force Says so" ditto for someone like Sidious being able to take down three Jedi masters at a time. None of these guys really have any power, they are all pretty much marionettes in a metaphysical puppet show.
Now, according to George Lucas' and his associative writings apparently, what happens is The Force for whatever reason guides this universe through cycles, where both good and evil rule for a few thousand years, with a short period of balance in between marking the transition point. This kind of galactic renewal and the decimation it causes is why say in the movies nobody even knows what a Sith was for sure, as they had been so entirely wiped out. It's also why the universe remains relatively stagnant and the technology doesn't change much even over periods of thousands of years.
While it was never finished properly, and thus there were problems, the game "Knights Of The Old Republic 2" was based heavily on Lucas' notes about this apparently. The premise of it being that a former Sith named Kreia figures out that The Force is pretty much manipulating everyone and subverting free will, so she seeks to destroy it so humanity can live on without it's manipulation. The first step in her plan is to literally kill all of the major force users, both good and evil, as they are the primary conduit through which The Force drives it's narrative. Of course the game not being properly finished it never got around to explaining how exactly she thought she could kill a metaphysical entity. Of course the ending of the game makes this partially irrelevant as Kreia herself starts spouting prophecy, and shows how what you just did actually worked the will of The Force by setting in motion events that were going to directly pit the Sith Empire against The Republic, which is a battle we know is going to end with the galaxy's dominant force (The Empire) being so badly eradicated people don't remember much about it, and a few thousand years of peace until the movie timeline heralds the new cycle.
The thing is that the Jedi aren't stupid, so much as they are literally unable to see the obvious because they are Jedi. I think that's part of the entire concept. One could argue it's probably a sort of pseudo-mind control (good little puppets) combined with them being indoctrinated to solve problems by meditating and conferring with The Force, which in this case as you saw isn't going to tell them crap since it wants them dead. Of course given that this comes down to predestination it's debatable how much free will there even is, so even that rationale isn't required, the Jedi could just be stupid because The Force wrote it that way (so to speak).
Now honestly (for you or anyone who read this far) one of the reasons why I have mixed opinions about this upcoming sequel trilogy is for the same reason I roll my eyes at a lot of the EU stuff. While entertaining, at the end of the day anything that happens after "Return Of The Jedi" is going to be a pretty big downer because by definition the universe should be heading towards a cycle of darkness. You've basically got two real options here if you want a true Star Wars sequel. One is to get deeply metaphysical with the entire thing, and the other is to create a real downer of an ending. Either way is likely to see a fan revolt, and I suspect is why Lucas tended to stay away from it. After all half the point is that when you don't peer into the nuts and bolts of "why" this is a pretty straightforward space fantasy story about heroes and villains and can be appreciated without (and perhaps better by) not really understanding the logic. Your looking at a situation where a true Star Wars sequel that directly continues this story (as opposed to skipping ahead to the end of the next age of darkness) pretty much ends with the somewhat trippy resolution of people gaining free will (or freedom from control), or the bad guys completing their dark prophecy and pretty much dancing the lambada on top of the corpses of all the heroes that tried to stop them as the universe turns into some occult nightmare of depravity for the next several thousand years.
You yourself at one point made it clear that you kind of "got" how Star Wars was based around more eastern concepts of mysticism and so on. One of the things it also does away with is the western idea of truly free will. The prophecy in the movies is actually adhered to through the entire thing, and following it was always a sort of foregone conclusion.
The key to the prophecy is that the chosen one will "bring balance to the force". If your paying attention the good guys are ruling over a rather peaceful universe, where they don't even need many Jedi to maintain order until around the time the movies start. With good so firmly in charge the only place for them to go to achieve "balance" is down. Sidious working with the prophecy is because he understands that part of it, but makes the mistake of thinking that if the good guys are going down, then it's time for a new Sith empire and he can pretty much get in on the ground floor as it's leader. He's wrong about that too as the prophecy says "balance" not "time for a reign of darkness".
Anakin is the tool the prophecy works through, his entire story arc is that he's so disturbed because he wants to be a good person, but the universe literally forces him to be a bad one. For example when he's just starting to get his ducks in a row, he happens to find his mother being raped and tortured by sand people, and goes on a rather dark side revenge spree as a result.
Luke, later on is pretty much just a factor in what is still Anakin's story when you get down to it. The entire thing is all about him getting Vader to betray the Emperor and prevent the universe from sinking into darkness. At the end of the movie when Vader lobs Sidious into a reactor pit, Anakin has literally brought balance to the force. He tore down The Jedi to the point where there are barely any left, and then he wiped out the leader of the Evil Empire. We have neither a major good force, or a major evil force, calling the shots. Everything is balanced in the force by way of pretty much everyone adhering to either side of the major force philosophy being dead.
This also explains some of the writers fiat, see The Force is playing metaphysical puppet master here. This is why the force is "cloudy" for some people, oftentimes trying to figure out the obvious (mean literally, why can't The Jedi Council sense a Sith Lord 2" away from them?) yet when it's something important that The Force needs done for it's narrative guys like Luke and Vader can literally sense each other across the galaxy, or on a planetary level.
This is also why you have fight scenes where say a Sith Apprentice can kill a Jedi Master, and then lose to another Apprentice with a literal BS move. It's because "The Force Says so" ditto for someone like Sidious being able to take down three Jedi masters at a time. None of these guys really have any power, they are all pretty much marionettes in a metaphysical puppet show.
Now, according to George Lucas' and his associative writings apparently, what happens is The Force for whatever reason guides this universe through cycles, where both good and evil rule for a few thousand years, with a short period of balance in between marking the transition point. This kind of galactic renewal and the decimation it causes is why say in the movies nobody even knows what a Sith was for sure, as they had been so entirely wiped out. It's also why the universe remains relatively stagnant and the technology doesn't change much even over periods of thousands of years.
While it was never finished properly, and thus there were problems, the game "Knights Of The Old Republic 2" was based heavily on Lucas' notes about this apparently. The premise of it being that a former Sith named Kreia figures out that The Force is pretty much manipulating everyone and subverting free will, so she seeks to destroy it so humanity can live on without it's manipulation. The first step in her plan is to literally kill all of the major force users, both good and evil, as they are the primary conduit through which The Force drives it's narrative. Of course the game not being properly finished it never got around to explaining how exactly she thought she could kill a metaphysical entity. Of course the ending of the game makes this partially irrelevant as Kreia herself starts spouting prophecy, and shows how what you just did actually worked the will of The Force by setting in motion events that were going to directly pit the Sith Empire against The Republic, which is a battle we know is going to end with the galaxy's dominant force (The Empire) being so badly eradicated people don't remember much about it, and a few thousand years of peace until the movie timeline heralds the new cycle.
The thing is that the Jedi aren't stupid, so much as they are literally unable to see the obvious because they are Jedi. I think that's part of the entire concept. One could argue it's probably a sort of pseudo-mind control (good little puppets) combined with them being indoctrinated to solve problems by meditating and conferring with The Force, which in this case as you saw isn't going to tell them crap since it wants them dead. Of course given that this comes down to predestination it's debatable how much free will there even is, so even that rationale isn't required, the Jedi could just be stupid because The Force wrote it that way (so to speak).
Now honestly (for you or anyone who read this far) one of the reasons why I have mixed opinions about this upcoming sequel trilogy is for the same reason I roll my eyes at a lot of the EU stuff. While entertaining, at the end of the day anything that happens after "Return Of The Jedi" is going to be a pretty big downer because by definition the universe should be heading towards a cycle of darkness. You've basically got two real options here if you want a true Star Wars sequel. One is to get deeply metaphysical with the entire thing, and the other is to create a real downer of an ending. Either way is likely to see a fan revolt, and I suspect is why Lucas tended to stay away from it. After all half the point is that when you don't peer into the nuts and bolts of "why" this is a pretty straightforward space fantasy story about heroes and villains and can be appreciated without (and perhaps better by) not really understanding the logic. Your looking at a situation where a true Star Wars sequel that directly continues this story (as opposed to skipping ahead to the end of the next age of darkness) pretty much ends with the somewhat trippy resolution of people gaining free will (or freedom from control), or the bad guys completing their dark prophecy and pretty much dancing the lambada on top of the corpses of all the heroes that tried to stop them as the universe turns into some occult nightmare of depravity for the next several thousand years.
I did always wonder why Qui-Gon was so stupid. It mystifies me why Obi-Wan looks up to him so much in Episode 2 given how little good there is to say about Qui-Gon. Interesting points, I'll give you that.
The prequel's stupidity mixed with darkness in tone is probably why I prefer them honestly, even if I don't think any of them are really good.
The prequel's stupidity mixed with darkness in tone is probably why I prefer them honestly, even if I don't think any of them are really good.
I always thought that Vader did bring "balance" to the force. During the first three movies the Jedi have a massive advantage over the Sith and Vader fixes that. So its not so much that the destiny thing didn't come to pass, its that the Jedi had an incorrect interpretation.
I've always espoused that the prequels do a lot more for the Anakin/Vader character than the originals did. In the originals, Vader kills the Emperor to protect a son he doesn't have much reason to give a shit about. But the inclusion of the prophecy in the prequels, that a chosen one would "bring balance", paints Anakin in a new light as a tragic character trapped by destiny. Balance takes on a much more literal meaning with the prophecy, which the Jedi thought to meant, "Snuffs out the dark side forever." So Anakin is always fated to fall to the dark side, since the Jedi far outweigh the number of Sith. There is no balance at all. That's why he turns in the first place. That's why he can't kill Obi-Wan at the end of Revenge. Not because of that horrible love plot, but because he's fated to.
It gives Vader better motivation for killing the Emperor too. With Yoda and Obi-Wan gone, now there's only one Jedi (Luke) and two Sith. That's why Vader can't kill Luke, despite Vader being undoubtedly the stronger (Vader's been training for years, Luke spent like a month with Yoda). It's not love for a child he barely knows (or should care about) that causes him to turn, but fate.
Finally, it means OBI-WAN'S SACRIFICE MAKES SENSE. We've constantly mocked how Kenobi doesn't make much sense when he says if he's killed he'll become stronger. But then that's not what he meant at all. He recognizes Vader as being trapped by fate, and that Vader's essentially invincible since he can only act because of fate and balance. So what does he do? He starts evening the odds. If you count Luke, despite still being in his formative years Jedi-wise, there are three Jedi alive, and only two Sith. Vader can't lose when the force is in imbalance, so he eliminates himself from the board. He knows the whole force ghost trick, so he can still help, but the force won't be out of balance. It's only a matter of time before Yoda dies, and then Vader will have no choice but to flip to the light side again to maintain the balance.
TL;DR: The prequels made Vader's character way better
It gives Vader better motivation for killing the Emperor too. With Yoda and Obi-Wan gone, now there's only one Jedi (Luke) and two Sith. That's why Vader can't kill Luke, despite Vader being undoubtedly the stronger (Vader's been training for years, Luke spent like a month with Yoda). It's not love for a child he barely knows (or should care about) that causes him to turn, but fate.
Finally, it means OBI-WAN'S SACRIFICE MAKES SENSE. We've constantly mocked how Kenobi doesn't make much sense when he says if he's killed he'll become stronger. But then that's not what he meant at all. He recognizes Vader as being trapped by fate, and that Vader's essentially invincible since he can only act because of fate and balance. So what does he do? He starts evening the odds. If you count Luke, despite still being in his formative years Jedi-wise, there are three Jedi alive, and only two Sith. Vader can't lose when the force is in imbalance, so he eliminates himself from the board. He knows the whole force ghost trick, so he can still help, but the force won't be out of balance. It's only a matter of time before Yoda dies, and then Vader will have no choice but to flip to the light side again to maintain the balance.
TL;DR: The prequels made Vader's character way better
Not to wallow too deeply into metaphysics of a universe I care little about, there is a ready explanation. We can assume that the "Force" such that it is exists in most living things - that much is at least explicitly stated. Thus any discussion of the force and it's balance that only examines a tiny minority of all life - that is, people able to actively use the force to influence the world around them, is folly - even if as powerful as any several thousand other life forms they are still outnumbered by trillions to one. Balance, in this case, is likely not about the force users themselves in any direct sense. In this case it could be assumed that the apparent imbalance favors the light side given there are many jedi but few sith but such a view is folly as we do not know how the sum total of all life add up on the balance sheet nor do we know just how much any particular force user might upset the equation one way or another.Lord Hosk said:
There is an alternate view of course that when the force is described as light and dark it is perhaps being mischaracterized as being opposite sides of the same coin. It could simply be that the light side is inherently a balanced approach to the force and the dark side is inherently unbalanced. This interpretation works relatively well given that the dark side is chaotic at every stage. Positions are won and kept through pure expressions of power and the force itself is controlled in an inherently unstable way. With this interpretation, the existence of any dark side user inherently upsets the balance because the dark side itself is just that - an imbalanced interaction with the force.
I'd never looked at the prequels in this manner.
Quite an interesting analysis indeed! Now if only the rest of the films had been good.
Quite an interesting analysis indeed! Now if only the rest of the films had been good.
Lono Shrugged said:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/One_Sith
Although, considering Lucas no longer has creative control over the franchise, who knows what will be decided to be "canon" anymore.
That's actually a really interesting perspective - I never really thoguht about how destiny played a role like that or how the concept of it could be turned on its head. Nicely done. The bit about Vader being Space Hitler though - eeeeehhh more like Space S.S. Captain. Palpatine would be the Hitler figure. Vadar was more like the Empire's hired muscle who got things done and turned out to be saddened and regretfull about his life choices and where he ended up as a result (the prequels added the element of easily manipulated, short sighted, not-to-bright, pathetic, whiney, psychopath to the character profile, though and ruined something cool).
Hell, I'm surprised nobody's mentionedlord.jeff said:
For me, the movies are the only thing that really matters. When I heard Chewie had died and Han was all suicidal alcoholic I knew I made the right call jumping from that ship early. Looking at the picture of Darth Tittyous and the back stage dancers of Rammstein there I am SO grateful I did. Ugh. Nothing personal, just, no, I had a healthy puberty, thanks guys.Not G. Ivingname said:Lono Shrugged said:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/One_Sith
Although, considering Lucas no longer has creative control over the franchise, who knows what will be decided to be "canon" anymore.
I think "universally reviled" is more about the way the films are constructed. There are generally accepted touchstones of what makes up a good or a bad film though. I like lots of stuff that is objectively bad. Jason movies, Troma films, the silly 70s version of Godzilla, etc. None of them are what anyone would call "good" filmmaking, but I love them anyway. They achieved good status for me by reveling in their badness.Tom_green_day said:
My point: No one is saying you can't like the prequels. But when gauged objectively, or as objectively as possible by a human mind, they don't hold up under artistic scrutiny as well as most other films that are considered good by definition. Shot composition in the prequels is often boring or rote, dialog was labored, character motivation is often hard to relate to, etc. Like them all you want though, because if you found them entertaining then none of that stuff really matters.
I tend to agree with you there. The messiness of the prequels, the convoluted stories and poor execution, lead me to believe that if what Bob is describing exists, it's because Lucas and crew failed to solidify Anakin as a central figure in the prequels. They tried to make him central and most of the advertising would lead you to believe he was, but if you go back and watch the films there's no "Luke" in the prequels. There's no one for the audience to project themselves into so the world just feels kind of flat and stupid. If the relationships Bob describes exist it's a byproduct of poor writing and trying to cram the prequels together with the original films.Rawbeard said:
And here I thought this would be a video that accepts that Episode 3 was good, Episode 1 was passable, and Episode 2 is just awful. Dang....maybe next year
An interesting idea, but the problem becomes that Anakin DOES bring balance to the force. In the sixth movie [footnote]Better late than never...[/footnote], he kills Palpatine, and dies himself, ridding the galaxy of the two biggest threats they know, and breaking the Rule of Two.
Yeah, they messed that up in the expanded universe material with Palpatine returning, and there being other Sith, but if you just go by Lucas Cannon, I.E., the movies, Vader fulfills the prophecy.
Yeah, they messed that up in the expanded universe material with Palpatine returning, and there being other Sith, but if you just go by Lucas Cannon, I.E., the movies, Vader fulfills the prophecy.
It doesn't have to be between two sides to be balanced (there are multiple definitions of balance, your using a fairly narrow one that I don't think applies to what Lucas was going for). Think of it this way, think of the force as a see-saw, the light side practitioners practice the force without moving the see-saw. Dark Side users sit on one side of the see-saw and imbalance the whole thing. So eliminating the dark side brings the force back into it's natural state.Lord Hosk said: